Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[HisdaughterJen]

God...Acts 1:7 ~ And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
When it is time for the Antichrist to be revealed to the "whole" church, God will see to it and Jesus will be taken out of the way so that the AC can do what he was created for....deceive the world and get Israel saved.

That answer that Jesus gave to the disciples was in regards to this question:

Act 1:6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
Act 1:7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

I don't see anything there about the church or the anti-christ's revealing.

It means, "immediately after " the tribulation, Jesus is coming back to gather His bride to Himself and not before

I agree. But that was not the question. The "gathering to Christ" is the catching away of the church, the rapture...do you agree?

If so, then answer these two questions:

1. Who is the restrainer according to Paul in that passage?

2. If the point of the passage is "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him", then why didn't he supposedly say a peep about it?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The thing is that you guys can't answer those questions without restructuring your belief system so all that you can do is run and hide, duck and weave, or try to insult me in hopes that I'll go away so that you won't have to answer the two questions.

That's exactly what Breckmin did. He's gone without ever answering the two questions...just a personal attack and poof, he's outta here!

POOF! They're all gone!

Here's the tally:

Hiscosmicgoldfish thinks the restrainer is the Romans
BigMouthNana thinks the restrainer is Jesus
The others ran away.

No one answered the 2nd question about why Paul said the whole passage was concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him (aka the rapture) and then supposedly Paul didn't say a word about it.

Hmmm....

 

[Super Kal]

personally, I agree with Hiscosmicgoldfish... it makes perfect sense to me.

it will not be the church because there cannot be a first resurrection before a first resurrection

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

That answer that Jesus gave to the disciples was in regards to this question:

Act 1:6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"
Act 1:7He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

That's right, but it says times (plural) and seasons (plural). All times and seasons are in Gods control, even the time of the end.

I don't see anything there about the church or the anti-christ's revealing.

Oh, you don't believe that God has any control over when the Antichrist is revealed..LOL!!!!!!? I believe that He has all control over that and is the restrainer.

2. If the point of the passage is "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him", then why didn't he supposedly say a peep about it?

Why don't you ask God that question? Afraid that he might tell you the truth, that the restrainer isn't the Holy Spirit holding back the church There are some things that God allows us to now, and some things that we will never know while in this body.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That's right, but it says times (plural) and seasons (plural). All times and seasons are in Gods control, even the time of the end.[/font]

Oh, you don't believe that God has any control over when the Antichrist is revealed..LOL!!!!!!? I believe that He has all control over that and is the restrainer.


Why don't you ask God that question? Afraid that he might tell you the truth, that the restrainer isn't the Holy Spirit holding back the church There are some things that God allows us to now, and some things that we will never know while in this body.

Where are you getting this stuff? I didn't say any of that!

Is this part of the dodge and weave so that you don't have to answer the questions? Next comes the insult and the "poof" as you run away.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

personally, I agree with Hiscosmicgoldfish... it makes perfect sense to me.

it will not be the church because there cannot be a first resurrection before a first resurrection

Ok, so two votes for the Romans as the restrainer.

Remember, SuperKal, even the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured before Christ comes on the clouds. The first resurrection is a broader term than one resurrection.

 

[Super Kal]

I, for one, believe that the two witnesses is the church

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I, for one, believe that the two witnesses is the church

Even after reading Zech 4?
Even after noticing that the two witnesses are doing what Moses and Elijah did?
Even after reading the scripture that says Moses and Elijah appeared standing with Jesus on the Mount?
Even after reading scripture that says the state of both men's bodies are in dispute?
Even after Malachi 4?

 

[Breckmin]

The only solution is that it's Rome. You'v made a good case that it isn't the Holy Spirit, and there's no way it's the church.

Now you're using the same kind of deceptive induction that Jen is!!!

Why even speculate such a huge speculation that is not in the text???

and i went a bought a New King James, didn't i.. fool as i am...

It's not a bad translation. No translation is perfect.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way.

I can't believe it.. yeah just change the case why don't you.. whenever you feel like it..

Well, clearly it is a spiritual force. Does it make sense that the enemy
is holding itself back? I do think that the most logical interpretation,
the more I research it, is that it probably is the Holy Spirit.

To claim church of any kind is illogical, because the writers always
identified the church in some particular fashion. There you go. Here's
a challenge to Jen, find a place anywhere in the NT where the church
was not identified in the text, but was mysterious as an it that is not
identified as a subject matter.

I know of no place like this. It just doesn't make any sense to be
the church. Paul would have identified the church and made it clear.
Find me another place in scripture like this. We always look for biblical
patterns in theology.

Michael

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Where are you getting this stuff? I didn't say any of that!

Is this part of the dodge and weave so that you don't have to answer the questions? Next comes the insult and the "poof" as you run away.

You asked the questions, I gave you my answers. You aren't ever going to be able to accept that that restrainer isn't the Holy Spirit because of what you believe. You should know me well enough to know that I don't *POOF*. It just gets tiring going rounds and rounds with you when even others post the same verses that I do regarding things, and your brain clams up and refutes it with things that are not even pertaining to what is being discussed a lot of times. It's like this verse is close, I'll post it thinking that you are going to get by with it. Not hardly!! Here's an idea, stay stuck in your beliefs if you are 100% convinced that you are right You will find out for sure one of these day when you are standing in the midst of the tribulation with the rest of us

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Now you're using the same kind of deceptive induction that Jen is!!!

Why even speculate such a huge speculation that is not in the text???




It's not a bad translation. No translation is perfect.



Well, clearly it is a spiritual force. Does it make sense that the enemy
is holding itself back? I do think that the most logical interpretation,
the more I research it, is that it probably is the Holy Spirit.

To claim church of any kind is illogical, because the writers always
identified the church in some particular fashion. There you go. Here's
a challenge to Jen, find a place anywhere in the NT where the church
was not identified in the text, but was mysterious as an it that is not
identified as a subject matter.

I know of no place like this. It just doesn't make any sense to be
the church. Paul would have identified the church and made it clear.
Find me another place in scripture like this. We always look for biblical
patterns in theology.

Michael

How is it that you think the church is "mysterious" in that passage? How is it "NOT identified as subject matter" in that passage? It's the whole POINT of the passage!

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

Who is Paul talking to when he says, "Now, brothers"? The church
Who believes that Jesus is OUR Messiah? The church
Who believes in OUR gathering to him? The church
Indeed, who will be gathered to him? The church!

What is the gathering to Jesus as Paul described it? a catching away and meeting Christ in the air. Is that NOT a departure? Is that NOT a removal or taking away of the church?

2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? [Yes, Paul, we remember, 1 Thess 14:17 which says we will be caught up from the earth, into the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. We are removed, we leave, we depart, we are taken out of the way]

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.


You know what else is funny...you say that apostasia is a "falling away from the church" or a "rebellion within the church" KNOWING that apostasia is referring to the church and yet you say the church is "not identified as subject matter" in that passage.

 

[Breckmin]

YOU still have not answered the two questions.

I answered them already. I will answer them again. Holy Spirit is
the first answer. The 2nd Coming is probably the second answer....

Who is the restrainer?

Definitely not the church itself, that is foolishness. It is just as
foolish as it is to claim that the Body of Christ referring to believers
is somehow "male." The church is identified as the bride and is
collectively feminine in the texts. Find me any place in scripture
where the church in the Greek text is revealed in the masculine.
The "body" is not. It is like claiming that God is male rather than
understanding that God is revealed in the masculine. God does
not have physical qualities or testosterone to make him male.

This whole assertion about the church being a "he" is ridiculous.
You don't even NEED this absurdity because in the Greek it is
clearly "it" and not even a "he" in this passage. That is one
of the indications that it is the Holy Spirit. Because it is revealed
in the neutral with no gender.

Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him". He told us in that passage. Who is it?

Probably the Holy Spirit, but it could even be an angel somehow.
It doesn't matter. It is clearly NOT the church. Such is foolishness.

Why did Paul say, "Concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him" and then supposedly NOT SAY a word about it???

He did. He continued to talk about the fact that the 2nd Coming
wouldn't take place until a falling away from doctrine and the anti-Christ
is revealed. It is really quite simple. Our gathering is the rapture at
the 2nd Coming.

PS: Yes, technically I am "post-trib" but the tribulation hasn't ended yet and won't until the RESTRAINER is taken out of the way and the sun/moon darken/STARS FALL and the Day of the Lord/Wrath begins when the trumpets, beasts, bowls happen followed by the coming of Jesus on the clouds to destroy the beasts and the army formed against him.

It is an unusual position so that is why the red flag should be up....

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I answered them already. I will answer them again. Holy Spirit is
the first answer. The 2nd Coming is probably the second answer....



Definitely not the church itself, that is foolishness. It is just as
foolish as it is to claim that the Body of Christ referring to believers
is somehow "male." The church is identified as the bride and is
collectively feminine in the texts. Find me any place in scripture
where the church in the Greek text is revealed in the masculine.
The "body" is not. It is like claiming that God is male rather than
understanding that God is revealed in the masculine. God does
not have physical qualities or testosterone to make him male.

This whole assertion about the church being a "he" is ridiculous.
You don't even NEED this absurdity because in the Greek it is
clearly "it" and not even a "he" in this passage. That is one
of the indications that it is the Holy Spirit. Because it is revealed
in the neutral with no gender.

This is such an odd thing to say, I don't know where to begin.

Obviously the Body of Christ is referred to as a "he" in a general pronoun. Would you rather the Body of Christ be referred to as a "she"? It makes no sense because Christ is a HE.

Probably the Holy Spirit, but it could even be an angel somehow.
It doesn't matter. It is clearly NOT the church. Such is foolishness.

Paul disagrees.

Rev 6 confirms it as does Rev 12. I don't think you're ready for that though.

He did. He continued to talk about the fact that the 2nd Coming
wouldn't take place until a falling away from doctrine and the anti-Christ
is revealed. It is really quite simple. Our gathering is the rapture at
the 2nd Coming.



It is an unusual position so that is why the red flag should be up....

You know what else is funny...you say that apostasia is a "falling away from the church" or a "rebellion within the church" KNOWING that apostasia is referring to the church and yet you say the church is "not identified as subject matter" in that passage.

Who's kidding whom, here?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jesus said in Matt 24:

1. Tribulation (wars, famines, plagues, persecution, martyrdom)
2. sun/moon darken/stars fall
3. wrath

Rev 6 shows:

1. Seals 1-4: Tribulation as described by Christ (wars, famines, plagues, persecution, martyrdom)
2. Seal 5 - giving of clothes of immortality (rapture of the Body of Christ)
3. Seal 6 - sun/moon darken/stars fall - "DAY OF WRATH HAS BEGUN"
4. Seal 7 - wrath = trumpets, beasts, bowls.

Do you see how 2 Thess 2 follows the same pattern?
1. Rapture (seal 5)
2. Day of the Lord begins (seal 6)
3. Wrath which includes the reign of the beast. (seal 7)

 

[Breckmin]

How is it that you think the church is "mysterious" in that passage? How is it "NOT identified as subject matter" in that passage? It's the whole POINT of the passage!

This is evasive to the point about "what restrains." You whole post
misses this point.

It is like communicating without addressing obvious points of disagreement.
You have not correctly identified the issue that is disputed in the passage.
It is what "restrains." Of course the passage is about the church
being gathered at the 2nd Coming. That is the obvious.
But what we are discussing is the identification of "what restrains."

This is feeling like it is almost pointless again.
Michael

 

[Breckmin]

You know what else is funny...you say that apostasia is a "falling away from the church" or a "rebellion within the church" KNOWING that apostasia is referring to the church and yet you say the church is "not identified as subject matter" in that passage.

No. This issue is clearly "what restrains" is not identified as the church
in the passage.

That is why your posts are increasingly becoming incongruous to my
basic points.

Michael

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

This whole assertion about the church being a "he" is ridiculous.
You don't even NEED this absurdity because in the Greek it is
clearly "it" and not even a "he" in this passage. That is one
of the indications that it is the Holy Spirit. Because it is revealed
in the neutral with no gender.

My thinking is that since we are grafted into the original Olive tree, and Israel is referred to in the female sense, so is the church.

It is an unusual position so that is why the red flag should be up....

She's the first Christian that I have ever known who believes that we are in the tribulation. I found that odd

 

[HisdaughterJen]

This is evasive to the point about "what restrains." You whole post
misses this point.

It is like communicating without addressing obvious points of disagreement.
You have not correctly identified the issue that is disputed in the passage.
It is what "restrains." Of course the passage is about the church
being gathered at the 2nd Coming. That is the obvious.
But what we are discussing is the identification of "what restrains."

This is feeling like it is almost pointless again.
Michael

Paul said the point of the passage was the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him (which IS a departure because we are caught up to meet Christ in the air).

He TWICE said the restrainer has to depart before the man of sin is revealed and NOW YOU KNOW what the restrainer is:

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. (departure)
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;


2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Therefore, the church is obviously the restrainer who has to leave before the man of sin can be revealed.

Paul mentions a departure THREE times in that passage and says in the very beginning who is leaving:
1. The gathering to Christ
2. Apostasia
3. "must be taken out of the way"

Another point: Is the church currently the restrainer of the devil?

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

 

[Super Kal]

no, BMN, we are grafted into the ROOT... the root being Christ

 

[ezek33]

The Church and Israel have become one Read Ephesians 2:11-19.