Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[HisdaughterJen]

The road to deception is paved with induction....

Michael

Are you insinuating that the BODY of Jesus Christ is a SHE? God sent His SON! Jesus is a MALE. How can His body be FEMALE?

You are going against the Word of God to say such a thing!

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish2]

so 2 Thess. 2:3 could possibly be talking about the Roman Catholic Church?

Yeah, but we'r not supposed to say that, as it upsets the many catholics here.


3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The temple is the church.. and the people of God. The temple is not the 3rd temple. Because it says 'temple of God' the 3rd temple is not the 'temple of God' for obvious reasons.. so all these guys that keep shouting that stuff about the antichrist and the 3rd temple, should do some bible study and get their facts straight.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Then would you consider praying about not being right? Would you ask
God to deliver you from all of this induction and start considering the
principles that are 100% for all believers that lead you out of the deception?




Amen to that! He is working in the trenches to teach pretribbers about
their deception and bring them back to the biblical position of post trib.

If you think the 2000 years was tribulation, then by nomenclature you're
already post trib!!!! Welcome on board to being post trib. Post trib is the
historical position of the church on eschatology. Now we just need to
get rid of all the English words and deal directly with the concepts in
the original language.

Michael

There you go again, calling me deceived and a liar.

YOU still have not answered the two questions.

Who is the restrainer? Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him". He told us in that passage. Who is it?

Why did Paul say, "Concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him" and then supposedly NOT SAY a word about it???

PS: Yes, technically I am "post-trib" but the tribulation hasn't ended yet and won't until the RESTRAINER is taken out of the way and the sun/moon darken/STARS FALL and the Day of the Lord/Wrath begins when the trumpets, beasts, bowls happen followed by the coming of Jesus on the clouds to destroy the beasts and the army formed against him.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

It's like talking to a brick wall.

Ok, folks. YOU EXPLAIN IT. ANSWER THESE TWO QUESTIONS:

1. Paul said, "NOW YOU KNOW what is restraining him"...so who/what is it? WHO IS THE RESTRAINER? Paul obviously just told us in that passage because he says, "NOW YOU KNOW".

2. The point of the passage was, "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him" and then it supposedly says absolutely nothing about it.
Explain that.

And don't run away either...you guys have given me grief and at least three of you said it's of the devil, so stand up and explain it! The TRUTH will win here! My guess is that you can't explain it and that you don't know who the restrainer is because APOSTASIA does not mean falling away fromthe church in that passage.

This is what I believe that "he who now letteth until he be taken out of the way" is.. In Daniel 9:26 it says, And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (taken out of the way) but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. The people of the Prince are not the people of God, but the people of the Antichrist. Gods people would not destroy the city or the sanctuary. That wouldn't make sense at all. The Antichrist is revealed when the HE who now letteth is taken out of the way..Jesus. Jesus isn't reigning on earth with the Antichrist, that's absurd. Daniel states that desolations are determined. That means that judgment is already approved by God on Israel.
These verses fit together in regard to the Antichrist:
2 Thess 2:7-10 ~ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders 10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Dan 9:27 ~ And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Super Kal]

now hold on... how do we know that Daniel 9:27 isn't talking about the death of Christ?

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish2]

Obama looks so saintly there that i think we should be praying to him, don't you?

 

[Hismessenger]

How old are you Jen if we may ask without causing a large ado?

hismessenger

 

[HisdaughterJen]

How old are you Jen if we may ask without causing a large ado?

hismessenger

A naive, child-at-heart, ultra-sensitive, 38.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

This is what I believe that "he who now letteth until he be taken out of the way" is.. In Daniel 9:26 it says, And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (taken out of the way) but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. The people of the Prince are not the people of God, but the people of the Antichrist. Gods people would not destroy the city or the sanctuary. That wouldn't make sense at all. The Antichrist is revealed when the HE who now letteth is taken out of the way..Jesus. Jesus isn't reigning on earth with the Antichrist, that's absurd. Daniel states that desolations are determined. That means that judgment is already approved by God on Israel.
These verses fit together in regard to the Antichrist:
2 Thess 2:7-10 ~ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders 10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Dan 9:27 ~ And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Paul said:

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.


Paul didn't say a word about the Roman Empire, the Holy Spirit, or Michael in that passage. He told us the point of the passage in the very first line:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you


What is the "gathering together to him" that Paul taught us about?

1Th 4:17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

We are going to meet the Lord in the air. We will be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord. Paul taught us that our gathering together to him means we are going up, we are leaving, we are departing.

He even says, 2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?


Someone has to be removed/depart before the man of sin can be revealed:

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way (REMOVAL/DEPARTURE).
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;


compare to:

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,


What departure? The gathering to Christ!


SO, you are saying that the restrainer is Jesus, Himself, correct? Jesus has to be removed/depart before the man of sin can be revealed?

..because Paul said the whole passage is.... 2Th 2:1Now, brothers, "concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him", we ask you

The gathering to Christ is a departure/removal of the church. Therefore, it is the church that has to depart/be taken out of the way.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

now hold on... how do we know that Daniel 9:27 isn't talking about the death of Christ?

One good way is because of what it says in verse 24.. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
That hasn't happened yet. That won't happen until Christ reigns.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish2]

How do i add this saintly man of God to my signature?

Paul didn't say a word about the Roman Empire, the Holy Spirit, or Michael in that passage.

Because he would have put the church that he was writing to in danger.. that's why it was cryptic.. there's no way it's the church. It's the Roman Empire.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

How do i add this saintly man of God to my signature?

Paul didn't say a word about the Roman Empire, the Holy Spirit, or Michael in that passage.

Because he would have put the church that he was writing to in danger.. that's why it was cryptic.. there's no way it's the church.

Oh really?

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you


The point was, "concerning the coming of Jesus and our gathering to him" but he doesn't say a peep about it in that passage?

What do you think the "gathering to him" is other than the catching away?

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish2]

Oh really?

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you


The point was, "concerning the coming of Jesus and our gathering to him" but he doesn't say a peep about it in that passage?

What do you think the "gathering to him" is other than the catching away?

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

He's talking about a general theme, setting it in context that Jesus would return, and they would be gathered to him.. not saying in this instant about meeting in the air.. just that they would one day be united with Jesus.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

He's talking about a general theme, setting it in context that Jesus would return, and they would be gathered to him.. not saying in this instant about meeting in the air.. just that they would one day be united with Jesus.

Yep!!
Round and round the merry go round goes.
If Jen gets it this time, only God knows.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

He's talking about a general theme, setting it in context that Jesus would return, and they would be gathered to him.. not saying in this instant about meeting in the air.. just that they would one day be united with Jesus.

Then who is the restrainer? PAul says, "NOW YOU KNOW", as if he just told us. Who is it?

If the point of the passage is "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him", then why didn't he say a peep about it?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yep!!
Round and round the merry go round goes.
If Jen gets it this time, only God knows.

Gets what? You guys haven't answered the two questions.

Answer the two questions, Nana.

1. Who is the restrainer?

2. If the point of the passage is "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him", then why didn't he say a peep about it?

You guys are Christians who believe in a catching away as Paul taught, right?

Here, Paul is saying, "concerning...our being gathered to Christ"...what do you think that means, as a Christian?

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish2]

Then who is the restrainer?

If the point of the passage is "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him", then why didn't he say a peep about it?

Yeah but they expected Jesus to return soon in their time.. he was saying that it wasn't go to happen.. the return of Christ until the man of sin is revealed. From what i understand.. i was open to the idea that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit, but that other poster's comments are very good, .. i dont believe it can be the church.. because the church is never a he.. and i dont know about the 'Michael' theory.. so that leaves the Romans.
I've just answered your questions/hypothosis (is that how it's spelt?)

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The thing is that you guys can't answer those questions without restructuring your belief system so all that you can do is run and hide, duck and weave, or try to insult me in hopes that I'll go away so that you won't have to answer the two questions.

That's exactly what Breckmin did. He's gone without ever answering the two questions...just a personal attack and poof, he's outta here!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yeah but they expected Jesus to return soon in their time.. he was saying that it wasn't go to happen.. the return of Christ until the man of sin is revealed. From what i understand.. i was open to the idea that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit, but that other poster's comments are very good, .. i dont believe it can be the church.. because the church is never a he.. and i dont know about the 'Michael' theory.. so that leaves the Romans.
I've just answered your questions/hypothosis (is that how it's spelt?)

At least you're man enough to answer at least one of the questions!

So, we have one vote for the Romans as the restrainer! Anyone else?

Do you want to take a stab at why Paul didn't mention the gathering to Christ in that passage at all after saying that was the point?

The "Body of Christ" aka "the church" as described as the Body of Christ is a HE.

Here's another passage:

Eph 2:15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Gets what? You guys haven't answered the two questions.

Answer the two questions, Nana.

1. Who is the restrainer?

God...Acts 1:7 ~ And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
When it is time for the Antichrist to be revealed to the "whole" church, God will see to it and Jesus will be taken out of the way so that the AC can do what he was created for....deceive the world and get Israel saved.

If the point of the passage is "concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him", then why didn't he say a peep about it?

You guys are Christians who believe in a catching away as Paul taught, right?

Here, Paul is saying, "concerning...our being gathered to Christ"...what do you think that means, as a Christian?

It means, "immediately after " the tribulation, Jesus is coming back to gather His bride to Himself and not before