Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

get it right posted in message #819 of this thread:

Because the rapture has not yet occured, when it does then the
bride will be in Heaven with Him for a time, before following Jesus
to earth to do battle with satan and his armies, then the first
resurrection.
Read Rev 19 & 20.

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Greetings.

Actually, the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) is the resurrection
of the entire church at the second coming of Jesus: "For as in Adam
all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his
own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at
his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23). Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't
say that the first resurrection itself occurred after the second coming
and marriage of the church in Revelation 19:7-21, it is only showing
that those who were resurrected at the second coming (the church,
including those in the church who were beheaded by the Antichrist)
will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation
20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

get it right posted in message #858 of this thread:

in the rapture 1 thess 4, Christ does not come to earth but as far as
the clouds.

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Actually, note that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 doesn't say that Jesus
descends from heaven into the clouds, and then goes back up into
heaven, like some bungee jumper. Instead, Jesus will descend from
heaven into the clouds, and then a little bit later land on the Mount
of Olives, for 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is referring to Jesus' second
coming, and he must come just as he left: he ascended from the
Mount of Olives into the clouds, and then on into heaven; so he will
descend from heaven into the clouds, and then on to the Mount of
Olives: "while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received
him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward
heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white
apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up
into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into
heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into
heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called
Olivet" (Acts 1:9-12); "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump
of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are
alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17); "And his feet
shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:4).

The Greek word translated as "meet" in "meet the Lord in the air"
(1 Thessalonians 4:17) is used to refer to meeting someone before
they have arrived at their destination: "and so we went toward Rome.
And from thence [from Rome], when the brethren heard of us, they
came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom
when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we
came to Rome..." (Acts 28:14-15). Just as the Christians in Rome
came out of Rome to meet Paul on his way to Rome, and then turned
around and came with him to Rome, so the church will be caught up
from the ground to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to the
ground, and then the church will turn around and come with Jesus to
the ground.

GoodNewsJournalist posted in message #861 of this thread:

But once we are translated, it will be as if we were always in heaven
with Jesus Christ

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Greetings.

Note that the church will only be caught up as high as the clouds to
meet Jesus in the air on his way down to the earth at his second
coming: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we
which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not
prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we
which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in
the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever
be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). We will then be with
the Lord in the clouds while he judges us: "He shall call to the
heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. 
Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalms 50:4-5), "then
shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect
from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27), "our gathering together
unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1), "For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done
in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or
bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10).

After we have been judged in the clouds, Jesus will then marry us:
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage
of the Lamb is come" (Revelation 19:7). Then we will all mount white
horses and descend back down from the sky (the first heaven) with
Jesus as he brings God's wrath upon the world: "And the armies
which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in
fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp
sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule
them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the
fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (Revelation 19:14-14); "Then
shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he
fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day
upon the mount of Olives" (Zechariah 14:3-4). We will stay with
Jesus on the earth and reign with him during the millennium: "they
shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a
thousand years" (Revelation 20:6), "hast made us unto our God
kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Revelation
5:10), "he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to
him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a
rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers:
even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the
churches" (Revelation 2:26-29).

And then after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation
20:7-15), we won't go into heaven, but God will come down out of
heaven to live with us on a new earth: "I saw a new heaven and a
new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed
away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as
a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of
heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he
will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself
shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:1-3).

Bible 2

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't
say that the first resurrection itself occurred after the second coming

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you only have to read from here to see that it does.
Rev 19.11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20. 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Those verses are in continuation.


Bible 2

Actually, note that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 doesn't say that Jesus
descends from heaven into the clouds, and then goes back up into
heaven, like some bungee jumper.

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No 1 thess dosn't compare jesus to a bungee jumper.

Get it right,

But you stopped short of the entire passage;

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a [fn] thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

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ese are the one who are sitting in judgment on the thrones which John saw. It should be evident especially when it says that they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

They are not raptured but are dead because they were beheaded for Christ cause. Yet you tend to disregard this fact which could not be clearer. It is not the raptured church but the dead in Christ who reign with Him for the thousand years. There are still saints on the earth as confirmed by this passage;

Rev 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

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It can't be said any other way without adding to or taking away from the scriptures.

hismessenger

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a [fn] thousand years.

There are two different group of saints; those sitting on thrones with glorified bodies and the SOLES of those beheaded in the Tribulation who reign with Christ a thousand years. Saints sitting on thrones were glorified in the rapture.

Saints sitting on thrones are the prophets and Moses and Abraham, David and so on, not raptured for there is no rapture before the millennium. The rapture occurs after the wicked have been removed from the creation, not after the tribulation. Unless you are calling those who died before and during the tribulation Raptured saints.

Why is it that people try to make the new testament church the only branch of the church which will be in heaven when there are already in heaven those fed to the lions, burned at the stake, those boiled in oil, or stoned to death. How do you believe that you deserve to sit on those thrones more than they do when you have given nothing as they have?

hismessenger

get it right posted in message #884 of this thread:

you only have to read from here to see that it does.

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Greetings.

Note that nothing in Revelation 19:11-20:4 says or requires that the
first resurrection doesn't occur until after Revelation 19:7-20:3. For
the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) is the resurrection of the
church at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), and the second coming occurs in
Revelation 19:7-20:3. So all Revelation 20:4-6 is doing is describing
the already-resurrected church living and reigning with Jesus for
1000 years. The church would have been resurrected back at
Revelation 19:7, when the marriage occurs.

get it right posted in message #884 of this thread:

1 thess dosn't compare jesus to a bungee jumper.

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That's right, because nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 says that
at the rapture Jesus will come down from heaven only as low as the
clouds and then bounce back up into heaven again. 1 Thessalonians
4:14-17 is the second coming, when Jesus is coming to reign on the
earth for the millennium (Zechariah 14:3-21). The church will be
caught up (raptured) only as high as the clouds to meet Jesus in the
air on his way down to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17). The
purpose of the rapture is to gather together the church to Jesus in
the clouds at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew
24:30-31) so that the church might be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, cf.
Mark 13:27) and then married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before
the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky
(the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he brings God's
wrath upon the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Also, note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 says that it will
occur before the tribulation, for Jesus won't come to gather
together the church until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).
The church will go through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13,
Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4). When Jesus comes to gather
together and marry the church he will destroy the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Jesus can't come to
gather together the church until sometime after there's an apostasy
in the church and the Antichrist commits the abomination of
desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:9-31).

kotel posted in message #886 of this thread:

There are two different group of saints; those sitting on thrones
with glorified bodies and the SOLES of those beheaded in the
Tribulation who reign with Christ a thousand years. Saints sitting
on thrones were glorified in the rapture.

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Greetings.

Those sitting on thrones in Revelation 20:4 could be the apostles
(Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30). Or it could also include those in the
church who will be beheaded, for there is no second "I saw" in
Revelation 20:4; the original Greek says "And I saw thrones, and
they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and the
souls of them that were beheaded". This would make sense in
that the whole church will judge the world (1 Corinthians 6:2)
during the millennium, in the sense of ruling, like the judges/rulers in
the book of Judges. For the whole church will rule on the earth
with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 5:10) and will rule all
nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29). So John isn't saying
that only those in the church who will be beheaded will rule with
Christ; he's simply showing that they will be included along with all
the rest of the church, for there are no believers in Jesus outside
of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, the "souls" in Revelation 20:4
is referrring to embodied souls, just as, for example, the "souls" in
Acts 27:37 is referring to embodied souls. For those in Revelation
20:4-6 are the church, who had been bodily-resurrected at the
second coming (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16,
Revelation 19:7-20:6).

oh, 888 replies in this thread. that must mean Jesus is coming back tomorrow! Wait, im 889...ruined it...sorry!

Hismessenger said:

Saints sitting on thrones are the prophets and Moses and Abraham, David and so on, not raptured for there is no rapture before the millennium. The rapture occurs after the wicked have been removed from the creation, not after the tribulation. Unless you are calling those who died before and during the tribulation Raptured saints.

Why is it that people try to make the new testament church the only branch of the church which will be in heaven when there are already in heaven those fed to the lions, burned at the stake, those boiled in oil, or stoned to death. How do you believe that you deserve to sit on those thrones more than they do when you have given nothing as they have?

hismessenger

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Number 1: What is wrong with you that you can't understand that NOBODY is worthy of their own works...it is through the blood of Christ that we are righteous. Those wearing the white robes have washed them in the blood of the Lamb. Do you understand what that means? They are righteous because of their belief in Christ and His sacrifice for their sins.

Number 2:

There is a resurrection and rapture BEFORE wrath. Read Isaiah 26:19-21.

Those who are resurrected after Jesus has returned are those who were beheaded at the hands of the beast. They are judged by the Bride who was given her white robes BEFORE the wrath.

There are scriptures that show you this which I have repeatedly posted.

HisdaughterJen said:

Number 1: What is wrong with you that you can't understand that NOBODY is worthy of their own works...it is through the blood of Christ that we are righteous. Those wearing the white robes have washed them in the blood of the Lamb. Do you understand what that means? They are righteous because of their belief in Christ and His sacrifice for their sins.

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Hi Jen.....on earth, in this age....I'll agree...

but in the Millennium, it'll be about works for the beguiled (seduced) part of the bride to be.......

the ones that were not seduced by Satan's false lamb role, are firstfruits and not subject to abny wrath at all...

Number 2:

There is a resurrection and rapture BEFORE wrath. Read Isaiah 26:19-21.

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Yes, indeed there is. It is right at Christ's return to earth....
for the gathering...
and then Christ pours His wrath out....
those cups/vials...
after the elect are gathered to him on Mt Zion.

Those who are resurrected after Jesus has returned are those who were beheaded at the hands of the beast.

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no one will be beheaded by the beast...he is coming to play church, pretend to be Christ returned...he won't be able to convince anyone that h is God if he is lopping off heads...Rev20 gives us multiple groups of people, seperated by the word AND...

Rev9 states that the locust army can only sting/hurt men, not kill them. And Luke21 promises protection to Christ's election.

They are judged by the Bride who was given her white robes BEFORE the wrath.

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well, they are part of the bride and are not judged by them....they are the firstfrutis and as such the second death has no effect on them...

I agree with you hat they are given their robes before wrath...

either when they died and went to God....(Rev19:1-3) , which is before wrath....

or after the tribulation when Christ comes to gather them...1Thes4:13-16.

it is after Christ has gathered the elect and raised the dead believers to life again here..., that the wrath is poured on the rest of those alive...Rev14 is after His Coming....after the gathering...