Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 21, 2008

Ghost air said:
Let me ask the post trib people this.

Do you believe that the DAY OF THE LORD begins the great tribulation?

No, the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation as well as Christs return....same day.

Do you believe that the church is Christ's bride to be?

Yes.

If the questions above are answered YES, then how do post tribbers reconcile the fact that the call is made at midnight that the Bridegroom is coming?

Midnight is an analogy, not that the Lord is actually coming at midnight...1 Thess 5:7 ~ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. It is basically saying watch and stay awake..keep yourselves ready at any time awake or asleep. You better be ready before you close those eyes at night.
Matt 24:42-42 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Post tribbers say that some of the church (Christ's bride) goes through the great tribuation, which is the DAY of the Lord. Scripture shows that the call is made at midnight for the 10 virgins.

So how can the virgins go through the tribulation in that DAY if they were called to the marriage during the NIGHT ?

Same answers as above...an analogy, not literally at midnight.

zeke37 · Sep 21, 2008

Ghost air said:
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How can the Day of the Lord END the tribulation if we're told that in that Day the heavens and the earth will melt away with fervent heat ?

ALL of the church goes through the great tribuation ? Then you must believe that the dead in Christ (deceased members of the church) are RAISED first... otherwise how could they go through the tribuation ?

So how can you say that ALL the church will go through it ?

So you are saying that the dead in Christ are raised and then they will go through the great tribuation ? Is that it ?

alive implied....

the dead are awaiting their return to earth with Christ at the 7th trump/last trump/trump of God....

and the alive are gathered together with them....

marking the beginning of the 1000 year Day of the Lord.

Kingdom_Come · Sep 21, 2008

Ghost air said:
Do you believe that the DAY OF THE LORD begins the great tribulation ?

No. The “Day of The Lord” dawns with the coming of The Messiah to end the apocalyptic scenario unfolding on the earth at that time. Jesus said if He did not return to stop it no flesh would be saved (Mat 24:22). This is the point at which Christ subjugates the kingdoms of this world and begins to establish His kingdom which will never end (reference Dan 2:44). This is where He gathers His elect (Mat 24:29-31; Dan 12:1). This is not where human history ends. In fact you can find a lot of prophecy about things which must happen during this “Day” ending with Satan’s last stand and destruction.

Ghost air said:
Do you believe that the church is Christ's bride to be ?

The church is symbolically referred to as the bride of Christ, yes.

Ghost air said:
How can the Day of the Lord END the tribulation if we're told that in that Day the heavens and the earth will melt away with fervent heat ?

It is not a literal 24 hour day. The passing away of the old heaven and earth happen at the end of the “Day” (1000 years), not the beginning. The wearing out of the saints of The Most High (Dan 7:25) happens leading up to the beginning of the “Day of The Lord”; the appearance of The Messiah in power and glory, the gathering of His elect, and the establishment of His Kingdom.

One of the problems I see is that people are trying to take parables, and the symbols used in them, and find prophetic meaning in them. The purpose of the parables was to teach a lesson, and allegory should not be stretched beyond its intended purpose. Attempting to stretch their meaning beyond that is attempting to read more into them than was intended. The parable of the wise and foolish virgins is intended to warn us that we must remain faithful to the end (Matt 10:22). That end may come in death or that end may come at the return of Christ. The church has been persecuted since its inception. Many in the early church were killed for believing in Christ. They certainly did not escape tribulation. Persecution continues in the world today. During this discourse Christ told many parables which were intended to show that the church is to remain faithful to the end. Though many will start out the journey, many may not make it to the end of the journey. Some become comfortable and begin to slack off and backslide. The more time passes the easier it is to get comfortable and stop watching; stop being vigilant, and stop being faithful. The parables were intended to warn us against this behavior, and against this attitude of complacency. Once you stop expecting The Lord’s return, that is when it will catch you unaware and judgment will follow. Those that remain vigilant and faithful will not only watch but they will continue the work of the Kingdom, and those alive at that time will be found faithfully producing fruit and will be rewarded. This is the purpose of the parables; to remind us to endure till the end. Trying to read more into them than that is reaching.

We have prophecy which provides us with the details of what must come to pass. It is so plain that people must capitulate to the “Second Coming of Christ” happening at the end of the tribulation of those days. Jesus clearly states that He will send His angels to gather His elect at that time. This is clear. Prophecy and the teachings of the apostles line up with this. Even someone that believes in “pre-trib” must admit this. The “Second Coming” is clearly delineated in the prophetic timeline; in the book of Daniel; in the words of Christ Himself; in the teachings of the apostles, and in the book of Revelation. This means we know when, during the course of events, it is supposed to take place, and what events must precede it.

This is why Paul could say with confidence, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” (2Th 2:1-3). He could say this because he understood that certain things must happen before the “Day” of Christ begins. Another translation says it this way, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” (ESV 2Th 2:1-3). If you refer to the Greek you will see that this is an accurate translation. In other words Paul was speaking to them “concerning” the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering which is associated with that coming (the resurrection). He was explaining that they should not be worried that they are already in that “Day” because certain things must happen first before that “Day” can dawn. While we may not be able to pinpoint a date, the faithful and watchful will recognize the season.

Now these texts are clear and unambiguous and they delineate “when” during the prophetic timeline the “Day” of Christ will dawn and the elect will be gathered. An overstretched interpretation of a parable, or of an allegorical statement, does not and cannot refute what is plainly written. Thus the flaw must be in the overstretched interpretation of the allegory. We find no place in Scripture where prophetic events are so clearly delineated, and begin with a “secret” rapture of the church. Not one prophet or apostle provided us with such an event preceding the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin; at least none that I am aware of. This should strike us as odd.

Ghost air · Sep 22, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
No, the day of the Lord happens after the tribulation as well as Christs return....same day.

Do you believe that the Day of the Lord is one 24 hour day, or a thousand years ?

Nana said:
Yes.

So you believe that Christ's church is the bride. So therefore, post tribbers believe that only SOME of the body of Christ will go through the great tribulation. I don't understand why post tribbers believe this.

Midnight is an analogy, not that the Lord is actually coming at midnight...1 Thess 5:7 ~ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. It is basically saying watch and stay awake..keep yourselves ready at any time awake or asleep. You better be ready before you close those eyes at night.
Matt 24:42-42 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Same answers as above...an analogy, not literally at midnight.

So how do you know it's just an analogy ? Also, it still does not mean that we KNOW when the time will be, it simply tells me that it will take place in the NIGHT, and not in the DAY.

Ghost air · Sep 22, 2008

zeke37 said:
alive implied....

the dead are awaiting their return to earth with Christ at the 7th trump/last trump/trump of God....

and the alive are gathered together with them....

marking the beginning of the 1000 year Day of the Lord.

So as mentioned, post tribbers believe that only SOME members of Christ's church go through the great tribuation, while many do not.

Ghost air · Sep 22, 2008

Kingdom_Come said:
No. The “Day of The Lord” dawns with the coming of The Messiah to end the apocalyptic scenario unfolding on the earth at that time. Jesus said if He did not return to stop it no flesh would be saved (Mat 24:22). This is the point at which Christ subjugates the kingdoms of this world and begins to establish His kingdom which will never end (reference Dan 2:44). This is where He gathers His elect (Mat 24:29-31; Dan 12:1). This is not where human history ends. In fact you can find a lot of prophecy about things which must happen during this “Day” ending with Satan’s last stand and destruction.

I would agree with the exception that I also believe that the great tribulation is within the DAY of the LORD.

The church is symbolically referred to as the bride of Christ, yes.

What do you mean symbolically ? Are you saying that Christ's Church is not literally His bride to be ?

It is not a literal 24 hour day. The passing away of the old heaven and earth happen at the end of the “Day” (1000 years), not the beginning. The wearing out of the saints of The Most High (Dan 7:25) happens leading up to the beginning of the “Day of The Lord”; the appearance of The Messiah in power and glory, the gathering of His elect, and the establishment of His Kingdom.

I agree that the DAY of the LORD is a thousand years and that the elements will pass away at the END of it.

One of the problems I see is that people are trying to take parables, and the symbols used in them, and find prophetic meaning in them.

So when I see scripture which says that the call was made at midnight, then I accept that as the plain truth of scripture. Why would you or anybody suggest that the call comes during the DAY rather than what the scripture says... AT NIGHT ?

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 22, 2008

Ghost air said:
So how do you know it's just an analogy ? Also, it still does not mean that we KNOW when the time will be, it simply tells me that it will take place in the NIGHT, and not in the DAY.

Ghost air, did you even read those verses that I underlined???
Matt 24:42-43 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come ; 43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
That is about as plain as it can get stating that we do not know what hour and what watch. That is how I know that it is an analogy regardng midnight. He could come at 6 in the morning, noon, 3 in the afternoon, 10 at night..anytime. The reason that it mentions night in the verse that I posted about "sleep in the night" and "drunken in the night" is because people are usually more unaware at night. Most are tired after working all day, watching probably some "godless" movie on tv, tossing down a few "brewski's"...pass out maybe etc. People better be aware even at night and be ready just incase He does come at night. We don't know when.
Matt 25:13 ~Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day NOR THE HOUR wherein the Son of man cometh....Jesus own words.

Ghost air · Sep 22, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
Ghost air, did you even read those verses that I underlined???
Matt 24:42-43 ~ Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come ; 43) But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
That is about as plain as it can get stating that we do not know what hour and what watch. That is how I know that it is an analogy regardng midnight. He could come at 6 in the morning, noon, 3 in the afternoon, 10 at night..anytime. The reason that it mentions night in the verse that I posted about "sleep in the night" and "drunken in the night" is because people are usually more unaware at night. Most are tired after working all day, watching probably some "godless" movie on tv, tossing down a few "brewski's"...pass out maybe etc. People better be aware even at night and be ready just incase He does come at night. We don't know when.
Matt 25:13 ~Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day NOR THE HOUR wherein the Son of man cometh....Jesus own words.

I DID read the verses Nana, perhaps you didn't read my response. I said that even though we are told in scripture that the call came at midnight, that doesn't mean that we know the hour.

We're not speaking of nightime and daytime in the literal sense, but rather in the spiritual sense.

When I read that the call came at midnight, that tells me that it's before the DAY... not before the daylight, but rather before the DAY OF THE LORD.

Post tribbers have only SOME members of Christ's church going through the great tribulation, while the other members who are asleep in Christ do not go through it. IMO that is inconsistent.

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 22, 2008

Ghost air said:
I DID read the verses Nana, perhaps you didn't read my response. I said that even though we are told in scripture that the call came at midnight, that doesn't mean that we know the hour.

We're not speaking of nightime and daytime in the literal sense, but rather in the spiritual sense.

When I read that the call came at midnight, that tells me that it's before the DAY... not before the daylight, but rather before the DAY OF THE LORD.

Post tribbers have only SOME members of Christ's church going through the great tribulation, while the other members who are asleep in Christ do not go through it. IMO that is inconsistent.

Oh okay..I read yours also. If you mean speaking of nighttime and daytime as in a "Spiritual" analogy, then that is what it means. Hummm, you see that as before the Day of the Lord with those verses? Odd. What is so strange about the bride going through the tribulation and not those that are asleep? Gee, if we all thought like that, we would all be wondering why since Christ ascended that those that have died never had to go through the tribulation either We weren't promised to live 2000 + years lol. It is inevitable Ghost air that we all are going to die at some point if Christ doesn't come first.
Maybe this will help you that I just thought of and may have something to do with Gods reason why some do and some don't...Eph 1:3-6 ~ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated (to determine in advance) us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Here is another one...Jer 1:5 ~ Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

In other words, this is saying that God chose us before He created the world. He knew us already before we were born. Evidently He chose those who would be born and die before the tribulation, and those of us that will go through the tribulation. All according to the good will of His purpose as the verse states. None of us knows the mind of God Ghost air. The Word states that His thoughts are higher then our thoughts, and His ways higher then our ways...Is 55:8-9 ~ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Ghost air · Sep 23, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
What is so strange about the bride going through the tribulation and not those that are asleep? Gee, if we all thought like that, we would all be wondering why since Christ ascended that those that have died never had to go through the tribulation either We weren't promised to live 2000 + years lol. It is inevitable Ghost air that we all are going to die at some point if Christ doesn't come first.

I guess that is the point Nana. Why would the Lord allow some of His bride to be taken through the great tribulation (time of testing for the whole world) while the majority of them are asleep.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Another reason why I do not believe that some of His bride goes through the tribulation is that I see the great tribuation as the beginning of the DAY of the LORD, which is God's judgment and wrath coming against the whole world. I believe that this is why the Thess were unsettled in their thinking that the DAY had already come.

So how does it all work out in the post trib mindset ? God allows SOME of His bride to go through the great tribulation while the others are asleep, and then He resurrects those who are asleep at His coming ?

Doesn't the marriage of the Lamb take place before He comes ? Do these who go through the great tribulation not get a chance to go to their own wedding ?

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 23, 2008

Ghost air said:
I guess that is the point Nana. Why would the Lord allow some of His bride to be taken through the great tribulation (time of testing for the whole world) while the majority of them are asleep.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Another reason why I do not believe that some of His bride goes through the tribulation is that I see the great tribuation as the beginning of the DAY of the LORD, which is God's judgment and wrath coming against the whole world. I believe that this is why the Thess were unsettled in their thinking that the DAY had already come.

So how does it all work out in the post trib mindset ? God allows SOME of His bride to go through the great tribulation while the others are asleep, and then He resurrects those who are asleep at His coming ?

Doesn't the marriage of the Lamb take place before He comes ? Do these who go through the great tribulation not get a chance to go to their own wedding ?

The way Rev 19:7-9 reads, it seems the marriage supper takes place about the same time as when Christ returns in Rev 19:11-21. I believe that since we are the bride and Christ returns in the same chapter as the marriage supper, it begins then. We don't know exactly what the marriage supper involves. I do know that Jesus said in Matt 26:29... But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine,(wine) until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. Evidently we are going to have a drink together The bible doesn't give a lot of information about the marriage supper. I wish that it did, because I would really like to know what it is exactly. As far as the people in the great tribulation missing their own wedding, no, we will be there also. The wedding and Christs return is after the tribulation.
Matt 24:29-31 ~ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 23, 2008

The bible doesn't give a lot of information about the marriage supper. I wish that it did, because I would really like to know what it is exactly. As far as the people in the great tribulation missing their own wedding, no, we will be there also. The wedding and Christs return is after the tribulation.

Greetings BMN! Only if you have the patience to harmonize the parables of JESUS to Reve and the OT.

Matthew 22:11 And entering yet the King, to gaze of the ones the reclining at table, he saw there a Man not in-clothed cothing of wedding-feast: [Luke 16:19/Zeph 1:7]

zeph 1:7 Hush! in presence of my Lord YHWH, that near Day of YHWH. That YHWH prepares a sacrifice, He sanctifies ones being called of Him.
8 And He becomes in Day of sacrifice of YHWH and I visit on the chiefs, and on sons of the King, and on all of ones being clothed clothing foreign. [Matt 22:11/Revelation 19]

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 23, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
Greetings BMN! Only if you have the patience to harmonize the parables of JESUS to Reve and the OT.

Matthew 22:11 And entering yet the King, to gaze of the ones the reclining at table, he saw there a Man not in-clothed cothing of wedding-feast: [Luke 16:19/Zeph 1:7]

zeph 1:7 Hush! in presence of my Lord YHWH, that near Day of YHWH. That YHWH prepares a sacrifice, He sanctifies ones being called of Him.
8 And He becomes in Day of sacrifice of YHWH and I visit on the chiefs, and on sons of the King, and on all of ones being clothed clothing foreign. [Matt 22:11/Revelation 19]

I don't understand your bible LLOJ. I kind of picture it like the wedding at Cana that Jesus attended. Much merriment and a lot of wine lol.

Ghost air · Sep 24, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
The way Rev 19:7-9 reads, it seems the marriage supper takes place about the same time as when Christ returns in Rev 19:11-21. I believe that since we are the bride and Christ returns in the same chapter as the marriage supper, it begins then.

When I read Rev 19, I see the wedding taking place (in heaven) and then the Lord coming with the saints in fine linen following Him. So evidently they must have been raptured before Christ comes.

That's why I was asking how it all fits together in the post trib mindset. You have SOME of the bride going through the tribuation while the others are asleep. So what happens after that ? The Lord resurrects those who are asleep at the rapture and then they all go to the wedding in heaven before the return of Christ ?

As far as the people in the great tribulation missing their own wedding, no, we will be there also. The wedding and Christs return is after the tribulation.

Matt 24:29-31 ~ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So Matthew 24 speaks of Christ coming (no question about that) although it doesn't speak of the wedding. Now according to the Revelation, the wedding takes place in heaven and then Christ comes. I do believe that Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 speak of the same coming of Christ.

So there is nothing in Matt 24 which tells me that the rapture of Christ's church is post trib.

Psalms34 · Sep 25, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
I have often wondered if there would be any significant difference between pre-tribbers going through the tribulation then post trib believers..which I am post. The bible states in John 8:32... And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Does that mean that those who do not see the truth are in more serious peril during the tribulation then those who are post who have received the truth?

That’s an old argument that makes no sense. It is often taught with the post-trib (yo-yo) view to confuse the listener about the pre-trib view and make it as some sort of delusion leading to eventual apostasy.

Truth of the matter is, if someone is pre-trib, they are not going to bow down to the AC, not unless:

1. They change their position on the pre-trib view and think Jesus came 3.5 to 7 years before he is suppose to, which is lunacy. It’s fully contrary to scripture, makes absolutely no sense at all. We all agree that Jesus wont be here during the tribulation, why would the pre-trib believers now suddenly change their entire theology to accept someone that comes before the end of the tribulation? It's not just some whimsical idea that he comes at the end, but everything from the identity of Israel, the promises to the Church and so much more, all must change long before one could ever accept that Christ has come before the end. Basically the fundamentalist must now become a total liberal to accept this and that is just about comical. He never comes before the end, not to earth, we simply leave. period.

2. They were never really Christians. They were never born-again never receiving the Holy Spirit. If this is so, than you nor I really understand the workings of salvation and we are both in the same boat. So #2 should concern you even more.

Simply put, this old argument is bunk. It’s very misleading for a purpose, to promote some belief that is made out to be an issue of primary importance. As they say, some choose to major in the minors. They put the secondary issues equal to or above the major issues. But somehow it it just gets repeated again and again and again without any real thought or contemplation.

Hmm, I was looking for a thread on the financial situation we are in, guess nothing active here. Same old, same old... *shrugs*

zeke37 · Sep 25, 2008

Ghost air said:
When I read Rev 19, I see the wedding taking place (in heaven) and then the Lord coming with the saints in fine linen following Him. So evidently they must have been raptured before Christ comes.

Ghost air said:
the Saints that follow Him are the dead believers in heaven with whom Christ returns, as promised in 1Thes4:13-14....where are the dead? they are in heaven today with Christ waiting to return, AS PROMISED

and they are gathered together with the elect alive on earth, at the last trump, which is the 7th, or trump of God....when Christ Comes here...physically

That's why I was asking how it all fits together in the post trib mindset. You have SOME of the bride going through the tribuation while the others are asleep. So what happens after that ?

sleeping does not mean in a hole in the ground..they are very much alive in heaven today...in their "spiritual/celestial bodies" that now house their souls...waiting to come back here with Christ.

The Lord resurrects those who are asleep at the rapture and then they all go to the wedding in heaven before the return of Christ ?

huh? all the dead are alive today in heaven, in their spiritual bodies, and the dead believers have a promise to be kept to them, that they are figuratively going to be resurrected to life back on earth as promised)...but make no mistake, they are very concious and and alive and in their very own spiritual bodies/ angelic bodies...right now...in heaven!!!! waiting to come here...resurected back to life on earth...to teach and reign/judge in the 1000 years, all those that did not pass God's test of Satan's false Messiah role....
pre trib, imo sets one up to possibly believe that, becasue the doctrine think that Jesus comes first to get them, before any of the bad stuff starts.......if it not Jesus come, but it is Satan in disguise, then that would mean trouble. His lies will deceive the whole world except the very elect Christian witnesses who are sealed with the truth and thus kept from the temptation(s) that Satan and his lies bring. Satan will pretend to be the Lamb returned...even in appearance....and by false miracles and supernatural abilities, this fallen angel will seduce even many of the potential bride....5 of 10, 1 of 2.....5 of 7 church systems....etc...

many shall be deceived...

the elect in heaven (or sleeping) are asleep to life on earth, but very much alive and awake in heaven, interacting and concious..they are going to be resurrected to life on earth again....today, those dead believers are alive in heaven, in their own spriitual bodies that have physical form...they are incorruptible as all dead are, but only those dead believers that go through Christ's blood (all the way back to the beginning) are immortal as will the elect alive on earth become...at the change that happens in 1Cor15.

So Matthew 24 speaks of Christ coming (no question about that) although it doesn't speak of the wedding. Now according to the Revelation, the wedding takes place in heaven and then Christ comes. I do believe that Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 speak of the same coming of Christ.

So there is nothing in Matt 24 which tells me that the rapture of Christ's church is post trib.

that just does not make much sense friend...Mat 24 clearly says after the tribulation of that time, so perhaps it is your understanding of the symbolic wedding that you believe is pre trib, that is at fault...there is a symbolic wedding, but wouldn't all of the bride be there? think on it....and it is quite easy to prove that there are believers in that tribulation time that are alive to be Gathered together with the returning elect from heaven....so are they left out???

not at all...they are the ONLY believers that are Sealed, the rest of the believers are not sealed, and need refinement....which they shall get in the Millennial day of the Lord....since no one is going anywhere early...wouldn't that leave many unprepared for the deceiption that is coming...since you don't even think you will have to endure it, protected or not?

God Himself has blinded many to truth, (2Thes2:10-12) that will cause them to fall for Satan's lies when he comes pretending to be Jesus (Rev6:2), disguised as the Lamb (2Cor11:14,) but really the dragon (Rev13:11)

many Christians need refinement...to walk properly in the Way....and they shall get it in the Millennium...and then if they overcome Satan's last stand at the end of the Lord's Day, perhaps they shall join the rest of the bride...not as firstfruits, but as overcomers....

Yes, perhaps after that 1000 years and God's Judgment, they too shall become His bride...after all, that is the point of the Millennium...using those that are elect, to teach those that are not...the truth....all with Christ right here on earth...on Mt. Zion!!!...

and then at the end Satan is released for noe final test...

who will overcome!!!!

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 25, 2008

Ghost air said:
When I read Rev 19, I see the wedding taking place (in heaven) and then the Lord coming with the saints in fine linen following Him. So evidently they must have been raptured before Christ comes.

That's why I was asking how it all fits together in the post trib mindset. You have SOME of the bride going through the tribuation while the others are asleep. So what happens after that ? The Lord resurrects those who are asleep at the rapture and then they all go to the wedding in heaven before the return of Christ?

The bible doesn't say anything about the wedding feast taking place first. It says that we meet the Lord in the air at His return...1 Thess 4:17 ~ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds (the resurrected), to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. In Rev 19 this is the same coming as 1 Thess 4:17. We don't go to heaven for awhile for the marriage supper after He returns. Like I stated before, the Day of the Lord and the resurrection and catching up are the same day. We meet the Lord in the air and come right back down to fight the antichrist armies. That is why I said that the marriage supper starts the minute He comes. Jesus has to throw the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire in Rev 19 first before we consumate the marriage supper. Does it make sense to you that He would want to take care of these important things before the supper gets underway? It does me. In the first part of Rev 20, the angel comes down and binds Satan for 1000 years while we are at the supper. Chapter 20:4 says that we live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. We come back with Christ in the New Jerusalem in chapter 21:9-10 after the 1000 years.

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 25, 2008

Artificial Intelligence said:
That’s an old argument that makes no sense. It is often taught with the post-trib (yo-yo) view to confuse the listener about the pre-trib view and make it as some sort of delusion leading to eventual apostasy.

Truth of the matter is, if someone is pre-trib, they are not going to bow down to the AC, not unless:

1. They change their position on the pre-trib view and think Jesus came 3.5 to 7 years before he is suppose to, which is lunacy. It’s fully contrary to scripture, makes absolutely no sense at all. We all agree that Jesus wont be here during the tribulation, why would the pre-trib believers now suddenly change their entire theology to accept someone that comes before the end of the tribulation? It's not just some whimsical idea that he comes at the end, but everything from the identity of Israel, the promises to the Church and so much more, all must change long before one could ever accept that Christ has come before the end. Basically the fundamentalist must now become a total liberal to accept this and that is just about comical. He never comes before the end, not to earth, we simply leave. period.

2. They were never really Christians. They were never born-again never receiving the Holy Spirit. If this is so, than you nor I really understand the workings of salvation and we are both in the same boat. So #2 should concern you even more.

Simply put, this old argument is bunk. It’s very misleading for a purpose, to promote some belief that is made out to be an issue of primary importance. As they say, some choose to major in the minors. They put the secondary issues equal to or above the major issues. But somehow it it just gets repeated again and again and again without any real thought or contemplation.

Hmm, I was looking for a thread on the financial situation we are in, guess nothing active here. Same old, same old... *shrugs*

I accept your remarks as someone with "Artificial Intelligence" Want to know about the financial situation? Here ya go. This nation is going down the tubes, the bail out won't work..just throw this nation deeper then the debt it is aready in, Wall Street is going to crash, the antichrist is taking over for 3.5 years. How's that for news?

onwingsaseagles · Sep 25, 2008

Big Mouth Nana said:
I have often wondered if there would be any significant difference between pre-tribbers going through the tribulation then post trib believers..which I am post. The bible states in John 8:32... And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Does that mean that those who do not see the truth are in more serious peril during the tribulation then those who are post who have received the truth?
The reason that I have these questions is because I was pre-trib for 35 years..post for about 5 years now. When I was pre-trib, it seemed like I had less worries about what was coming on the earth because I wouldn't be here. When I first discovered that post trib catching away was the truth, I was in shock for awhile, but now I am at peace knowing what to expect...and actually more grateful to God for showing me the truth since it has sunk in. In 2 Tim 4:3-4 it states this... For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Now I believe that this has been going on since "whoever" started the pre-trib "fable." It has followed a long line of well known bible scholars/teachers such as John Darby, even as most recent, Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHay, and even preachers are expounding it on the Christian channels on TV. John Hagee, the pompous hypocrite that he is, said one day while I was watching 3 years ago, that the post trib rapture is the biggest lie that Satan ever perpetrated. He even said..DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT!! I haven't watched him since.
Now, I am wondering if people that follow this teaching and believe in a pre-trib rapture are going to be totally blind sided once the tribulation hits. God expects every one of us to search His Word for ourselves, and not rely on the truth of mans gospel from the pulpit, or what we have heard from our families carried down to us. Will this be considered believing a Satanic deception and pay the penalty in the end? If they can't even see the post trib rapture in the Word, will they even know who the Antichrist is once he is revealed? The bible doesn't really say anything about believing a "time line" lie, but it does say something about believing unsound doctrine. I DO believe that Satan started this lie for a very good reason...what is that reason and for what purpose?
I do believe that those who are full of what Word will know what is going on once this starts..unless they freak out thinking..OH NO, the rapture didn't happen. What do I do now??!! These are just some thoughts that I have had roaming through my head for awhile.

I think you are right BMN, pretrib theologians such as Hal Lindsey and Tim Lahay are doing nobody any favors by spreading this false doctrine, and I also agree that John Hagee is a pompous hypocrite. I also agree pretrib believers have turned away from the truth and unto satans fable. As to why satan has created this lie, the main reason would be to keep God's people unaware and unprepared for the perilous times that we will soon have to face. I believe the faith of many pretrib believers will be overthrown during the Tribulation. I pray for them they they will come to the knowledge of the truth and prepare themselves for the times to come, and those that do not come to this knowledge until the tribulation starts will still hold fast to their faith in the face of any and all adversity.

Big Mouth Nana · Sep 25, 2008

onwingsaseagles said:
I think you are right BMN, pretrib theologians such as Hal Lindsey and Tim Lahay are doing nobody any favors by spreading this false doctrine, and I also agree that John Hagee is a pompous hypocrite. I also agree pretrib believers have turned away from the truth and unto satans fable. As to why satan has created this lie, the main reason would be to keep God's people unaware and unprepared for the perilous times that we will soon have to face. I believe the faith of many pretrib believers will be overthrown during the Tribulation. I pray for them they they will come to the knowledge of the truth and prepare themselves for the times to come, and those that do not come to this knowledge until the tribulation starts will still hold fast to their faith in the face of any and all adversity.

Hi onwings. Where have you been? I haven't seen you in Eschatology for over a month. Well, you are the first to agree with me on this I of course didn't expect pre-trib folks to agree with me. They I am sure think that we as post trib believers are being deceived ourselves.
I have been thinking a lot the past few days about predestination and freewill. God states this in Eph 1:4 ~ According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 & 11 ~ Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
I have been thinking that maybe God chose us before hand knowing who would accept Him and the timing of His coming, and those who also love the Lord will not and His reasons for it. Does this mean that these who are waiting for this rapture are going to be tested and tried differently, thinking that they were going to escape, and having believed a Satanic lie. He did give us freewill, and post trib rapture is as plain as it gets in Matthew 24, but they still believe the lie. I believed this for 35 years and the lie fell off one night...like scales on the eyes of a blind person.
To me this verse could have something else added to it that I posted below..Matt 24:26-30 ~ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. I believe that this could be added to this verse also..Behold, he is coming before the tribulation; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
I don't look at this as adding to the Word, as any lie about when Christ returns other then what the bible states being after the tribulation is a lie. Christ expects us to know the truth, unless He has purposely blinded people for His reasons alone by us being predestinated after the counsel of His own will, or the Devil has done this all on his own. The way I see it is, the last page in Revelation states this.. Rev 22:18-19 ~ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I'm leaning toward verse 18 instead of 19 for those believing a lie as the plagues happen during the tribulation, and these are believers in the Lord. It doesn't say that they lose their salvation.I know this is going to anger folks, but I can't help what I believe or think regarding this..it's there!!!!!

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