Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

kool aide .... what are you drinking ... I am sober

HisdaughterJen said:

Well, the question is:
When are the bowls of wrath poured out on the kingdom of the beast?...Before or after Christ comes with the angels?

The answer is:

Rev 16:12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.
Rev 16:13Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Rev 16:16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


Rev 19:19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.


...the bowls of wrath are poured out on the kingdom of the beast BEFORE Christ comes with the angels. BECAUSE the 6th bowl is when the beasts/devil gather the armies to prepare to battle Christ as He is coming with the angels. This means that the Day of Wrath/Lord is more than 24 hours long. It also means that all of the trumpets and bowls (as well as the seals) are completed by the time Christ comes with the angels to destroy the army formed against Him and all the evil.






Did you ever notice that Christ doesn't mention the beasts, the trumpets, the bowls, or the two witnesses in Matt 24...at all?




Well, notice something very important and VERY cool:

Rev 11:15 -18 ~And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Meanwhile:

SOMEBODY was snatched up and dwelling in heaven when the devil is cast down to the earth before the reign of the devil began and they say:


Rev 12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice,you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."




The Kingdom is come in heaven 3.5 years before it is come on earth! AND, on top of that, the devil is really angry and slanders THOSE WHO DWELL IN HEAVEN!

Rev 13:6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

hmmm....who could "those who dwell in heaven" possibly be? The white robed great multitude of Rev 7 are standing before the throne and the Lamb...and who could they be???? THE CHURCH who was given her bridal clothes (white robes) and married in seal #5 before the Day of the Lord/Wrath started in seal #6!

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I requoted a previous post to keep all this together...

Big Mouth Nana said:

Also Jen, in Rev 16:12 the sixth angel is pouring out his vial on the Euphrates river. In verse 15, Christ says ~ Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
We are still here during the sixth angel with the vial and Armageddon. We are gone when the seventh angel sounds the trumpet in Rev 11:15 ~ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
We aren't going to miss a thing but the wrath.

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Well, technically, not....the beasts would have killed those who refuse the mark by then, right?

I'm not denying that Jesus comes with the angels as a thief to take back what was stolen after the 7th bowl/7th trumpet. The difference is that Jesus appears in the air and gathers His consecrated ones before the sun/moon darken (Day of Wrath/Lord) and then comes with the angels after the trumpets and bowls are poured out.

'Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom' (Mt 16:28).

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And...

The Matthean Text?

'there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom' (Mt 16:28).

Big Mouth Nana said:

I figure that by Armageddon everyone who is going to take the mark is marked already.

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YES! Exactly!

Where in scripture do you find that Jesus comes before the sun/moon darken? Not according to Matt 24, He comes afterwards. The major key is, He is only coming in the clouds one time as in Matt 24:30. The way your senerio is, he comes for the bride, and then comes back with the angels after the bowls. That's not scriptural at all. He comes in the clouds in Matt 24 with the angels to gather the elect...us...one time only. The angels are already here and have poured out the vials...1 through 6. The sixth angel does the Euphrates river last.

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The darkening of the sun/moon is when the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins.
YES, He is only coming in the clouds one time, after wrath has been poured out...after the trumpets and the bowls, after the beast has gathered the armies together to prepare to fight against Christ as He comes with the angels.
But as 2 Thess 2, Rev 6, Rev 7, Rev 12, Rev 19, Isaiah 26:19-21, etc, all point out, Christ snatches the church BEFORE the man of sin is revealed (2 thess 2), BEFORE the Day of wrath/Day of the Lord begins (Rev 6/7), BEFORE the sun/moon darken (Rev 6), BEFORE (or at the same time) satan is cast down (Rev 12), AT THE TIME of the giving of white robes (Rev 19 & 6 & 7), BEFORE wrath starts which the born again are not appointed to suffer.

The return of the Lord, aka the Day of the Lord, aka The Day of Wrath, aka the presence of the Lord begins years before His coming on the clouds. The return/Day/presence begins with giving of white robes to the Bride (rapture), sun/moon darkening, and continues with trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls (which are part of judgment and wrath) and THEN He comes on the clouds with the angels.

As the scriptures pointed out, the Kingdom reign of Christ begins in heaven at least 3 1/2 years before it begins on the earth.

Big Mouth Nana said:

This is like the old saying, why beat a dead horse? Jen, the Day of The Lord and the wrath are on the same day. Paul would not have stated that the fornicators flesh would be destroyed so that his Spirit could be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor 5:5). What would The Day of The Lord and the fornicators Spirit being saved on that day have to do with each other? RESURRECTION TIME!!! Paul would not have stated that there was rejoicing in the Day of The Lord Jesus (2 Cor 1:14). There are only going to be the bride and the lost here on that day, and the lost sure aren't going to be rejoicing!! We will because we will be gone on the Day of The Lord. The day of the Lord is a cloudy day (Exe 30:3), as well as Christ coming in the clouds (Matt 24:30) (Mark 13:26) (Mark 14:62) (Rev 1:7). Zeph 2:3 ~ Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the Day of The Lord's anger. If Christ had already come in a pre-trib rapture, why would the bride need to be hid if they were already in heaven? Think about that. We are with the Lord right before the wrath starts...(in heaven Rev 11:15) (wrath starts Rev 11:18).
Who is the man of sin going to be revealed to if the bride is gone? 2 Thess 2:3-4 ~ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. The Jewish remnant (house of Jacob & Judah)are blinded, and will stay blinded until Christ is revealed during the tribulation. This is referred to as the time of Jacobs trouble (Jer 30:10-11) (Jer 30:7..tribulation)
You may never understand this, but if we are still alive during this time, you are going to be here for it...not raptured.

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I understand what you are saying. But the confusion lies in exactly what the wrath of God is. I'm saying that the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord is the millennium which has multiple events that are poured out as the wrath of God. Those events include the trumpets, the bowls, the beasts, etc.

You appear to be saying, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding, that the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord is one event and that event is the coming of Christ with the angels to destroy. Am I right?

If I am understanding you correctly in that you believe the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord is one actual 24 hour day on which the Lord comes with the angels to destroy all the evil, then what about the trumpet judgments and bowls of wrath that begin on the Day of the Lord/Wrath BEFORE Christ even comes with the angels?


Now, regarding the Bride "hiding" on the day of the Lord's anger, I'll have to look at the context of Zeph 2 quote (which sounds a lot like what Jesus said about praying you may be found worthy to escape and stand before Him) but Isaiah 26:19-21 make it really clear that there is a resurrection and hiding in rooms of God's people before the Day of Wrath.

About 2 Thess 2,

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come. (People were undoubtedly worried that the Day of the Lord had already started)
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it (Day of the Lord) will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

Did you catch that? The order of events?....
1. departure/gathering to Christ
2. Day of the Lord begins
3. man of sin revealed who is destroyed by Christ at His coming.

This is confirmed by Rev 6:
1. seal #5 = rapture (giving church her Bridal clothes)
2. Seal #6 = sun/moon darken, day of wrath begins
3. Seal #7 = trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls which are all a part of the wrath of God. The beasts are destroyed by Christ at His coming. Then there are celebrations of the establishment of kingdom ON EARTH.

It's also confirmed by Rev 12:
1. Church snatched up, celebrating Kingdom in heaven
2. Devil cast down to chase around everyone else who then chooses to believe.
3. He knows his time is short...42 months, and then he'll be bound when the man of sin is destroyed by Christ at His coming...and then there are celebrations of the establishment of the kingdom ON EARTH.

I'm sorry but I believe that there is a little confusion here. The fifth seal in revelation has nothing to do with the rapture. The sixth seal in regards to the cosmic disturbances has already taken place. (this is confirmed by the 2300 day prophecy in revelation). The seventh seal is a prelude to the blowing of the seven trumpets.

The church will not be removed from the earth before the falling of the plagues. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. (PS 91:8)

The 42 months spoken of in revelation are the same as the time times and dividing of times spoken of in daniel. This is the time that the little horn exercised his power over the people of God.

Satan knows that his time is short because to the Lord, a thousand years is as one day. 2 Peter 3:8. The spiritual entities we war against do not sense time the same as we do.

There will be no establishment of God's kingdom on this earth. For one thousand years the saints will rule with Christ in judgement in heaven. This we know from 1 Cor 6:3 where paul tells us that we shall judge angels. Man is being given every 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc chance right now. A "second" probationary period would be meet with scorn and would be squarndered(sp?).

Let us not be deceived. At the coming of our Lord every eye will see and every ear shall hear. The righteous will witness the judgement of this world, but to those who are His, we shall be hidden under the shadow of the Almighty. Christ's kingdom will be established on this earth. But once sin and sinners have been defeated once and for all.

Re: 1007 years...

It is amazing just how many problems the Pretrib rapture runs into and yet it
will still survive with the most renown radio pastors whom I love. Too bad
they will not change their eschatology to fit an exegetical interpretation
of basic N.T. texts. Pretrib will unfortunately live on right up until the time
that the anti-Christ is revealed. Then those in the trenches who converted
to post trib at some point in their lives will need to encourage and pray for
those who were deceived.

If it were only as simple as counting seven trumpets...

In His Love For You to Be Protected From that which is not true,
Michael

One Return of Christ, not two.

hogndog said:

http://www.scholarscorner.com/eschaton/lasttrump.html

The Last Trumpet: Why There is no Pre-Tribulation* or Mid-Tribulation* Rapture
Paul's View of the Last Days - Why There are None "Left Behind"


Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation or Mid-Tribulation Rapture have argued that Jesus will appear and gather the saints and then disappear for either 3.5 years or 7 years* while the Anti-Christ takes over the earth.* However, Paul clearly states that when Jesus appears, Jesus will destroy the Lawless One at the same time he is gathering the saints to meet him in the air. There is no intervening period of 3 to 7 years.
The logic is very simple. Paul equates the return of the Lord with the slaying of the Anti-Christ [or Man of Lawlessness], he equates the return of Christ with the Rapture [or Assembly to meet Jesus in the air], and he equates the return of Christ with the Last Trumpet. Paul sees all three events as simultaneous. The Anti-Christ is causing a reign of terror before the coming of the Lord, and the saints are still on the earth being persecuted while this Man of Lawlessness has power. Paul anticipates that he may even be alive at the time of the Lord's appearing during this time of persecution - which would mean that Paul, a faithful, believing saint, might be on the earth during the time of the tribulation. He is not being left behind because of apostasy:
"But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, RSV.
There was a rumor spreading among the Thessalonians that they had missed the "rapture." They had heard that the Lord had already returned, and they feared they might have been "left behind." Paul writes 1 & 2 Thessalonians in part to assure believers that they have not been "left behind." Paul wants them to know that all believers will share in Christ's return and none will be left or miss the Lord's coming. Believing that even he might be on earth at the Lord's return, Paul says that the there will be many saints on the earth when Christ returns, and together with the previously dead in Christ, they all will assemble in the air to meet Jesus, who will, at that time, slay the Anti-Christ. Jesus will not leave people on the earth at the mercy of the Anti-Christ. There will not be an rapture [assembly in the air] and then, later, Jesus again coming a third time to destroy the Anti-Christ. Jesus destroys the Lawless One at the very same time he comes for the saints:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?... And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, RSV.

When Jesus appears, he does not leave some behind for a later rapture; instead, at his coming, he judges both the Lawless One and all those who have followed him. The point is, the judgment of the Lawless One and his followers [the unbelievers], Jesus' Appearing or Coming Again, and the Assembly of Saints in the sky [Rapture], all are one event.
There is no evidence that the Rapture or Assembly happens either before or in the middle of the last tribulation.

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wrong.

hogndog,
while I agree with most of what you are saying, my concern is that
your posts come off (big print and too confident) like the liberals
and many of the people who have been on the wrong side of truth.
IMHO, (and perhaps I am just nitpicking at something superfluous)
you should consider changing your style in these posts because
of others (who have been wrong) who have come before you.

You appear to be on the biblical side, (I assume you believe the
rapture takes place just before Armageddon at the end of the
tribulation), but when I read your posts I can't help being reminded
of all the liberals I have debated through the years (large letters).

Perhaps it is just appearances, if I am completely off here I apologize...
Michael

<wrong> should have been connected to the title of the post "of people who have been wrong."

HisdaughterJen said:

I agree that the return of the Lord which begins on the Day of the Lord is after the tribulation. But the tribulation is not the reign of the anti-christ as people are taught. It is the first four seals of Revelation, everything that precedes the sun/moon darkening/stars falling which Jesus taught in Matt 24. We have been in the "tribulation" as defined by the Bible since Christ ascended and opened the first four seals, consecutively, together and sent them out on Jerusalem (Ezek 14:21) and the world.

The return of the Lord which begins on the Day of the Lord when the sun/moon darken/stars fall is not the same thing as the coming of the Lord with the angels after the reign of the beast.

1. Tribulation (seals 1-4) which has been going on since the ascension.
2. Rapture (seal #5)
3. Signal that Day of the Lord has begun when the sun/moon darken/stars fall (satan/angels fall) (Seal #6) which is the return of the Lord/the presence of the Lord.
4. The reign of the devil for 42 months which is part of the wrath of God, the two witnesses, the trumpet judgments, the bowls of wrath. (Seal #7)
5. The coming of the Lord with the angels to destroy all the evil and the army formed against Him.

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The counter someone's claim. This is not a strange belief. This is classic
pretribulational dispensational theology. The problem is it wasn't around
in publication until John Nelson Darby, and it didn't get spread so widely
until D.L. Moody (great man of God, great preacher, but nobody's perfect)

My concern is that HisDaughterJen is going to argue herself right into
conflict with members of her church when she finally sees that they
are wrong, and she has been a victim of theological induction which is
open to error. My request it that when you finally change to the Post
Tribulational position (because I believe you are an honest person and
you will pray to the Lord and the Lord will deliver you from the deception
of the Pre-Trib rapture) you will realize that it is not worth arguing over.
Just teach your children and others the correct eschatology so that
they will be ready to help others during the tribulation to give their
lives in martyrdom. Why is it that the early Christians are fed to the
lions, and those of us after Darby get to be rescued (so God can not
reward us?). Why wouldn't God separate the wheat from the tares
with the mark of the beast? If Peter writes that when we suffer for
what is right and endure it, that it finds favor with God, then why
would our Loving Heavenly Father take us away from our reward???
It is a gift to be martyred. An eternal gift with an eternal crown
that is worth far more than the temporary pain and torture which
will be endured by Christians during the tribulation.

Your point 2 and 5 will not come come until point 4 according to
Thessalonians. "And our gathering together with Him."

Pray about it. Pray that God will protect you from anything that
is not true. From anything that is not from Him (including my
post) including the pre-tribulational rapture in the scriptures.

Ask God to show you: if there are 2 raptures or 1. If there are
2 returns of Christ or 1. If the last trumpet is the seventh
trumpet in the book of Revelation. Why dance around the
simplicity of what God is telling you in the scriptures???

What will it profit you eternally to be saved from martyrdom
when the Lord Jesus has already saved you from your sins
and washed you clean of unrighteousness??? Will not God
work out all things together for good? Which is the better
good, to be rescued OR to stand firm in your faith, glorify
God and be a testimony to the world?? Thess. 5:21
Perhaps you will ask the Lord to forgive your executors
and one of them will be cut to the heart; tear, cut or
remove the mark of the beast from their body and trust
that the Cross of Jesus Christ is a great enough Sacrifice
unto God, even to forgive them for making the mistake
and taking the mark...

Which is the greater good?

In Christ,
Michael

"apostasia" is where we get our word "apostate" or apostatize and it literally means
a defection from or a revolt against. Look it up on wikipedia or anywhere.
An apostasy is not being raptured up into the clouds. It is a falling away from
a belief system. Does it make sense to say "our gathering will not come until we
have gathered with Him?" Simple answer. No.
The mainstream church (unfortunately possibly lead by RC's) will fall away and the
anti-Christ will be revealed. A false prophet (future Pope maybe?) will be in collusion
with a world president of some kind (united nations future president?)
The apostasy of the church is necessary in order to single out and kill radical
born-again Christians throughout the world. The mainstream church will turn
against the "true" church (the body of Christ) and we will be martyred.

Do not be deceived, for the Day of the Lord and our gathering together
will Him will not come until the apostasy of the mainstream church comes
and the anti-Christ is revealed.

It is really simple in the text. Only pre-tribbers have to complicate it.

In Christ,
Michael

onwingsaseagles said:

This post is truer than you think, posttribers are not infalible, however the Bible clearly teaches the possttrib rapture and those that cannot see it are being blinded by satan, and it is my hope that they will one day allow the blinders to be removed so that they can see the truth.

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My personal experience with deliverance, however, is that the deceiving
spirits who surround us and gain footholds in our lifes actually piggyback
on our own "self-deception." I am not certain that in some ways we do
not blind ourselves with our own "desires" for what we "want" to be true.

I argued for 2 years against post trib before I finally gave up Pre. I knew
my position was weak, but I just couldn't see how all of the great pastors
and theologians I looked up to were ALL wrong. When I found out about
Walter Martin and George Ladd and others, it still didn't make sense why
the evangelical conservative churches would have fallen for the deception.

Then I started learning about systems based on "induction." They were
prevalent all through the 19th Century... Joseph Smith, Charles Russell,
Mary Baker Eddy, CHARLES DARWIN, even Ellen G. White.
It was well documented that John Darby visited the McDonald brother's
and knew of their sister's dream (Margret McDonald). I don't know how
much has been rewritten in history to clean up the connection between
Darby and the McDonalds but even though he rejected the sign gifts
he still was influenced by the induction of a dispensational hermeneutic.
What century was that again? Walter Martin used to talk about this
on the Bible Answer Man back in the 80's. As an authority on cults
he saw the similarities between the pre-tribulational rapture.
In fact, "Christian" universalism is guilty of the exact same type of
systematic inductions that lead to their deception. When did John
Murry leave the Methodists (18th Century, 19th Century?).

The fact is the time period for which the Pre-Trib rapture started
is very suspect. That is not, however, a reason to reject it.

That is easily done through exegesis.

In Christ,
Michael

the clouds.

Ghost air said:

Of course ! Pre-tribbers will be deceived by the one who blasphemes God and all those who are in heaven.

Please tell me you're joking

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I would disagree with the weak point. I believe it would apply more
toward reconstructionalists. The watch tower could buy into the
anti-Christ rather easily, especially if he proclaimed a kingdom.
Pentacostals who are reconstructionalists would possibly be weak for
deception also, temporarily.

I don't see pretribbers doing anything much more than fulfilling
I Peter 3:4, and then being challenged in their faith to believe
the rest of what they have believed.

We will be there for them. God is faithful to minister to his children.

In Christ,
Michael