Pre-Trib Belief If Post Is Correct/Problems?

[Super Kal]

and I've already proven to you that the Day of the Lord is not the Great tribulation.
(Joel 2:31)

 

[A Brother In Christ]

and I've already proven to you that the Day of the Lord is not the Great tribulation.
(Joel 2:31)

The day of the Lord starts in 1 thes 5:1-2 after the Rapture... 1 thes 4:16-17
ends in 2 peter 3:10

The Great terrible day of the Lord is a specific time during the Day of the Lord ..... Matt 24:21

 

[ezek33]

The day of the Lord starts in 1 thes 5:1-2 after the Rapture... 1 thes 4:16-17
ends in 2 peter 3:10

The Great terrible day of the Lord is a specific time during the Day of the Lord ..... Matt 24:21

The day of the Lord is a singular day, the day Jesus returns from heaven to resurrect the just, rapture the living saints, restore the Jews, and destroy the wicked. This day occurs immediately after the tribulation

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The day of the Lord is a singular day, the day Jesus returns from heaven to resurrect the just, rapture the living saints, restore the Jews, and destroy the wicked. This day occurs immediately after the tribulation

Prove it with scriptures.

The Day of the Lord is the millennium. When the sun/moon darken/stars fall, anti-christ revealed, then you'll know that the Day of the Lord has begun.

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,


Rev 6:12I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood.
...

Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


There's an entire 7th seal full of beasts, trumpets, bowls, two witnesses after the declaration that the day of his wrath is come.


Joe 2:31The sun will be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.

Confirming passage.

 

[Super Kal]

The day of the Lord is a singular day, the day Jesus returns from heaven to resurrect the just, rapture the living saints, restore the Jews, and destroy the wicked. This day occurs immediately after the tribulation

I don't believe the Day of the Lord is a literal day... 2 Peter 3:8 says God sees it as a thousand years, and is a thousand years mentioned in Revelation?... oh yeah (Rev. 20:1-6)

but contrary to popular teaching today, I beleive the trumpets, bowls, the beast and all between 4-18 happens within the 6 seals

 

[ezek33]

I don't believe the Day of the Lord is a literal day... 2 Peter 3:8 says God sees it as a thousand years, and is a thousand years mentioned in Revelation?... oh yeah (Rev. 20:1-6)

but contrary to popular teaching today, I beleive the trumpets, bowls, the beast and all between 4-18 happens within the 6 seals

The reference in 2nd Peter has cause more confusion than necessary. It simply means that God is beyond time that He exist outside of time and is not limited by what we know as time. Peter is explaining that some will mock the return of Christ because it hasn't came by the time they thought it should have, so Peter tell us that God is not limited by our time. The reference in Peter is no excuse for anyone to say a day in scripture is actually 1,000 years or thast 1,000 years in scripture is actually a day. The Bible means exactly what it says. The day of the Lord is the day of Christ's 2nd coming and the Millennium is an literal 1,000 years.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

but contrary to popular teaching today, I beleive the trumpets, bowls, the beast and all between 4-18 happens within the 6 seals

And where would you put the trumpets, the bowls, and the beasts in the first 6 seals?

Seals 1-4 = wars, famines, plagues, wild beasts
Seal 5 = giving of white robes to the bride who are told more martyrs are yet to occur before final judgment/vengeance
Seal 6 = sun/moon darken/stars fall, day of wrath begins


Here are the trumpets:

1. hail/fire/blood hurled to the earth so that 1/3 of grass and trees burned
2. mountain into sea, 1/3 of sea to blood
3. blazing star causes bitter 1/3 drinking water
4. sun/moon/stars struck so that 1/3 without light
5. satan releases beast out of abyss who kills the two witnesses, plague of locusts (can't harm the sealed of God)
6. beasts kill 1/3 of mankind
7. thunder, lightning, earthquake, hail.

Here are the bowls:

1. Sores on people with mark of beast
2. Sea to blood, everything in it dies
3. Freshwater to blood
4. Sun scorches
5. Darkness (as they are still in pain over their sores)
6. Devil and beasts gather armies to prepare to fight Christ as he is coming
7. thunder, lightning, earthquake, hail.


Don't forget the two witnesses who are testifying/prophesying, shutting up the sky so no rain, and turning water to blood, striking the earth with plagues as often as they want. The beast out of the abyss, released by satan in trumpet #5, is the one who kills them.


And, tell me, exactly what do you think the 7th seal is? When are satan and his angels cast down (described in Rev as "stars falling")? When does the reign of the beast begin in all of that?

We know this:

1. The 144,000 of Israel are sealed on earth before trumpets 1 & 2 begin according to Rev 7 and 8.
2. We know the beast out of the abyss in trumpet #5 is the one that kills the two witnesses according to Rev 11.
3. We know that stars falling in Revelation refers to satan/angels falling.
4. We know that in seal #5, white robes are given to the martyrs of Jesus who are told more martyrs will yet occur and then those in white robes are seen standing before the throne in heaven having endured great tribulation at the time when the 144,000 of Israel are sealed on earth.
5. We know that white robes are given only to the Bride in Rev, according to Rev 20.
6. We know that the tribulation is BEFORE the sun/moon darken (seal #6) according to Matt 24, so the tribulation has to be seals 1-4.
7. We know that the sun/moon darken BEFORE the day of the Lord/Wrath begins according to Joel 2 and Rev 6.
8. We know that trumpet #7 and bowl #7 are identical.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

The day of the Lord is a singular day, the day Jesus returns from heaven to resurrect the just, rapture the living saints, restore the Jews, and destroy the wicked. This day occurs immediately after the tribulation

You are absolutely correct It is just to easy for people to believe that God would make this "Day" of the Lord this easy to understand Not every instance of timing in the bible is referring to 1000 years equals one day to the Lord. If a person studies out the Day of the Lord and the sequence of things that happen, it is easy to understand that Day means Day. I did a study on this 3 years ago. Common sense alone should tell a person that it isn't going to take 1000 years for Christ to do the resurrection, gathering of the Saints and destroy the wicked, and that is when He destroys them at His second coming...one day event, resurrection, catching up and destruction!!
As just one example, Paul is talking about a fornicator here who's flesh is going to be destroyed by Satan so that his Spirit may be saved in the Day of The Lord..1 Cor 5:5 ~ To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the Spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[ezek33]

Yes BMN, a little study and simple common since and the truth is pretty easy to get at especially when you allow yourself to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes BMN, a little study and simple common since and the truth is pretty easy to get at especially when you allow yourself to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

Here's a little challenge for you Ezek33. Use "a little study, simple common sense, as well as allow yourself to be guided by the Holy Spirit" and tell me what happens after seal #6 when the sun/moon darken/stars fall and the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins USING SCRIPTURE! When are the bowls of wrath poured out on the kingdom of the beast?...Before or after Christ comes with the angels?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

The day of the Lord starts in 1 thes 5:1-2 after the Rapture... 1 thes 4:16-17
ends in 2 peter 3:10

The Great terrible day of the Lord is a specific time during the Day of the Lord ..... Matt 24:21

The day of the Lord is a singular day, the day Jesus returns from heaven to resurrect the just, rapture the living saints, restore the Jews, and destroy the wicked. This day occurs immediately after the tribulation

When does God destroy the world with fire..... the end of the 1000 yr reign.... 2 peter 3:10-12

Please follow me...

+

Great Trib.... 7 years....

1 thes 4:16-17.... taken....
1 thes 5:1-2 Christian are not here .... begin of the Day of the LORD

=... 1007 years

 

[HisdaughterJen]

When does God destroy the world with fire..... the end of the 1000 yr reign.... 2 peter 3:10-12

Please follow me...

+

Great Trib.... 7 years....

1 thes 4:16-17.... taken....
1 thes 5:1-2 Christian are not here .... begin of the Day of the LORD

=... 1007 years

Technically, there is no scripture that says the "great tribulation" is 7 years long.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When does God destroy the world with fire..... the end of the 1000 yr reign.... 2 peter 3:10-12

Please follow me...

+

Great Trib.... 7 years....

1 thes 4:16-17.... taken....
1 thes 5:1-2 Christian are not here .... begin of the Day of the LORD

=... 1007 years

Sounds good to me

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Technically, there is no scripture that says the "great tribulation" is 7 years long.

I tend to agree

 

[hogndog]

http://www.scholarscorner.com/eschaton/lasttrump.html

The Last Trumpet: Why There is no Pre-Tribulation* or Mid-Tribulation* Rapture
Paul's View of the Last Days - Why There are None "Left Behind"


Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation or Mid-Tribulation Rapture have argued that Jesus will appear and gather the saints and then disappear for either 3.5 years or 7 years* while the Anti-Christ takes over the earth.* However, Paul clearly states that when Jesus appears, Jesus will destroy the Lawless One at the same time he is gathering the saints to meet him in the air. There is no intervening period of 3 to 7 years.
The logic is very simple. Paul equates the return of the Lord with the slaying of the Anti-Christ [or Man of Lawlessness], he equates the return of Christ with the Rapture [or Assembly to meet Jesus in the air], and he equates the return of Christ with the Last Trumpet. Paul sees all three events as simultaneous. The Anti-Christ is causing a reign of terror before the coming of the Lord, and the saints are still on the earth being persecuted while this Man of Lawlessness has power. Paul anticipates that he may even be alive at the time of the Lord's appearing during this time of persecution - which would mean that Paul, a faithful, believing saint, might be on the earth during the time of the tribulation. He is not being left behind because of apostasy:
"But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, RSV.
There was a rumor spreading among the Thessalonians that they had missed the "rapture." They had heard that the Lord had already returned, and they feared they might have been "left behind." Paul writes 1 & 2 Thessalonians in part to assure believers that they have not been "left behind." Paul wants them to know that all believers will share in Christ's return and none will be left or miss the Lord's coming. Believing that even he might be on earth at the Lord's return, Paul says that the there will be many saints on the earth when Christ returns, and together with the previously dead in Christ, they all will assemble in the air to meet Jesus, who will, at that time, slay the Anti-Christ. Jesus will not leave people on the earth at the mercy of the Anti-Christ. There will not be an rapture [assembly in the air] and then, later, Jesus again coming a third time to destroy the Anti-Christ. Jesus destroys the Lawless One at the very same time he comes for the saints:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?... And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, RSV.

When Jesus appears, he does not leave some behind for a later rapture; instead, at his coming, he judges both the Lawless One and all those who have followed him. The point is, the judgment of the Lawless One and his followers [the unbelievers], Jesus' Appearing or Coming Again, and the Assembly of Saints in the sky [Rapture], all are one event.
There is no evidence that the Rapture or Assembly happens either before or in the middle of the last tribulation.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Technically, there is no scripture that says the "great tribulation" is 7 years long.

have you heard of 70th week, Jacob trouble

Daniel.. 9:24 70 sets of 7 = 490 years

dan 9:27 69 sets of 7 is wear Israel and Jersalem are cut off... 483 years ... no communication

The Mystery dispensation is between the 69 and 70th set

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Here's a little challenge for you Ezek33. Use "a little study, simple common sense, as well as allow yourself to be guided by the Holy Spirit" and tell me what happens after seal #6 when the sun/moon darken/stars fall and the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins USING SCRIPTURE! When are the bowls of wrath poured out on the kingdom of the beast?...Before or after Christ comes with the angels?

You need to go to more then one book for that answer Jen. The bible clearly states that the beast is destroyed with the brightness of Christs coming...2 Thess 2:8. How many times is He coming to gather his elect Jen? My bible says immediately after the tribulation..Matt 24:29. The sun/moon darken right before his sign appears, and in the next verse he appears in the clouds...Matt 24:30. Cosmic events...then Christ...then we are gone. We are gone almost simultaniously with the beginning of the wrath.
Rev 11:15 -18 ~And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
We aren't receiving rewards on an earth where wrath is going on!! We are with Christ.

 

[ezek33]

When does God destroy the world with fire..... the end of the 1000 yr reign.... 2 peter 3:10-12

Please follow me...

+

Great Trib.... 7 years....

1 thes 4:16-17.... taken....
1 thes 5:1-2 Christian are not here .... begin of the Day of the LORD

=... 1007 years

God destroys the wicked at the post trib return of Christ, just like I said.

2nd Thess 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

As far as the rest of your post, the only thing I can really say is you need to get off the kool-aid and start studying scripture, not just to try and prove your preconceived theories, but wanting to truly learn the truth.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Also Jen, in Rev 16:12 the sixth angel is pouring out his vial on the Euphrates river. In verse 15, Christ says ~ Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
We are still here during the sixth angel with the vial and Armageddon. We are gone when the seventh angel sounds the trumpet in Rev 11:15 ~ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
We aren't going to miss a thing but the wrath.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You need to go to more then one book for that answer Jen.

Well, the question is:
When are the bowls of wrath poured out on the kingdom of the beast?...Before or after Christ comes with the angels?

The answer is:

Rev 16:12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.
Rev 16:13Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Rev 16:16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.


Rev 19:19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.


...the bowls of wrath are poured out on the kingdom of the beast BEFORE Christ comes with the angels. BECAUSE the 6th bowl is when the beasts/devil gather the armies to prepare to battle Christ as He is coming with the angels. This means that the Day of Wrath/Lord is more than 24 hours long. It also means that all of the trumpets and bowls (as well as the seals) are completed by the time Christ comes with the angels to destroy the army formed against Him and all the evil.

The bible clearly states that the beast is destroyed with the brightness of Christs coming...2 Thess 2:8. How many times is He coming to gather his elect Jen? My bible says immediately after the tribulation..Matt 24:29. The sun/moon darken right before his sign appears, and in the next verse he appears in the clouds...Matt 24:30. Cosmic events...then Christ...then we are gone. We are gone almost simultaniously with the beginning of the wrath.

Did you ever notice that Christ doesn't mention the beasts, the trumpets, the bowls, or the two witnesses in Matt 24...at all?

Rev 11:15 -18 ~And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
We aren't receiving rewards on an earth where wrath is going on!! We are with Christ.

Well, notice something very important and VERY cool:

Rev 11:15 -18 ~And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Meanwhile:

SOMEBODY was snatched up and dwelling in heaven when the devil is cast down to the earth before the reign of the devil began and they say:


Rev 12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12Therefore rejoice,you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."




The Kingdom is in heaven 3.5 years before it is on earth! AND, on top of that, the devil is really angry and slanders THOSE WHO DWELL IN HEAVEN!

Rev 13:6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.

hmmm....who could "those who dwell in heaven" possibly be? The white robed great multitude of Rev 7 are standing before the throne and the Lamb...and who could they be???? THE CHURCH who was given her bridal clothes (white robes) and married in seal #5 before the Day of the Lord/Wrath started in seal #6!