Pre Elect

[simplyg123]

i am curious to know everyones feelings and beliefs on whether we are allready chosen, or whether we chose our salvation

 

[New_Wineskin]

i am curious to know everyones feelings and beliefs on whether we are allready chosen, or whether we chose our salvation

Somewhere in between . He leads us to salvation . If He didn't lead , we wouldn't choose .

 

[simplyg123]

Somewhere in between . He leads us to salvation . If He didn't lead , we wouldn't choose .

so, if he leads us he has chosen us

 

[mont974x4]

I believe he chooses us...chose us before we were even born. I started a thread on faith/belief and where it comes from in the Baptist forum.

 

[newleaf]

He chooses us. Or maybe both. Hmmm. Deep question.

 

[gratis]

I believe he chooses all of us. God is not a respecter of persons. However, it is totally up to us if we are going to follow God. Some people turn off their spiritual intuition and can't even 'hear' God calling them.

This is not the only scripture verse that states this, but one of the ones that come to my mind when I think on this subject.

Acts 10:33-35

So I sent for you at once, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here, waiting before God to hear the message the Lord has given you.”The Gentiles Hear the Good News

Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism. In every nation he accep ts those who fear him and do what is right.

 

[New_Wineskin]

so, if he leads us he has chosen us

ok .

 

[MellieMoo]

I definitely believe that we are chosen as explained in Ephesians:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. - Ephesians 1:4-6

It was His work on the cross that would draw us to himself:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - John 12:32

This is my understanding.

 

[gratis]

I definitely believe that we are chosen as explained in Ephesians:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. - Ephesians 1:4-6

It was His work on the cross that would draw us to himself:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. - John 12:32

This is my understanding.

Those verses lead me to believe that he chose all of us though. And not just a select few, right?

 

[MellieMoo]

Those verses lead me to believe that he chose all of us though. And not just a select few, right?

All of us meaning every human ever born? Or all of us meaning all true born-again believers?

I came across something recently on this topic that has been buzzing around in my head ever since:

We've all heard the saying "Jesus loves you" and we use it along with the plan of salvation to win lost people to the Lord all the time, but is it true?

Psalms 5:5 states: "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

That verse of scripture doesn't leave much wiggle room! It flat out says that there are people that God hates (unless I'm totally misunderstanding something here).

But we quote John 3:16 ALL THE TIME! "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So which is it? Does He love or does He hate? And just WHO is it that he loves or hates? The world? A select few? Questions! Questions!

We know the Bible can't contradict itself, so our understanding of something must not be right if we find scripture to be contradicting, right?

So the solution to the problem (as stated on the web site that got me thinking about all of this) was that our understanding of the word "world" must not be right. So if we take the word world to mean his "elect" (those chosen from the foundation of the world) then it makes a bit more sense to say that God hates those who work iniquity (unrepentant sinners).

Hope it's safe on this forum to discuss something this controversial - but I like to explore every possibility when studying the Bible and not just leave it to the learned church folk to tell me what to believe. With that said, let me see if this makes sense (and I'm not trying to rewrite scripture here, but just trying to put it in perspective to see if it fits):

"For God so loved the world (his elect), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (he predestined to) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

OK, go easy on me! Heehee! I've been cyber-clubbed for suggesting such crazy things on Christian forums.

Heavy topic. What do you think? (I've been chewing on this for a few days now trying to digest it myself.)

 

[gratis]

It is a heavy topic. IMHO I do believe everyone is everyone! God gave his Son to all of us.

I belive that God is Love. There are hundreds more entries in the bible about God's Love and Grace than there are about him hating. I believe that our bible has been translated so many times that some words are mistranslated (don't shoot me). Anyway, Jesus' ministry is all about grace and love! The whole New Testament is about Love, Grace and Salvation.

I don't mean the bible is written in error - I mean there are translation errors. It just isn't possible to translate and get the perfect intended meaning in every language. So I believe it is important to go back to the Greek and Hebrew meaning when we have questions like these.

 

[MellieMoo]

It is a heavy topic. IMHO I do believe everyone is everyone! God gave his Son to all of us.

I belive that God is Love. There are hundreds more entries in the bible about God's Love and Grace than there are about him hating.

I know what you mean, but still, I have to question my understanding of something when confronted with that one scripture that makes me go "huh?" lol

I believe that our bible has been translated so many times that some words are mistranslated (don't shoot me). Anyway, Jesus' ministry is all about grace and love! The whole New Testament is about Love, Grace and Salvation.



I don't mean the bible is written in error - I mean there are translation errors. It just isn't possible to translate and get the perfect intended meaning in every language. So I believe it is important to go back to the Greek and Hebrew meaning when we have questions like these.

Absolutely agreed!




But anyhow, one reason I am currently "unchurched" is because so many topics like this keep coming to my attention that just don't flow with mainstream Christianity - be it end times beliefs, salvation issues, tithing issues, gathering/fellowsipping issues etc. I keep getting red flags popping up in the things being taught in church that make me dig into the scriptures to search it out for myself. So I'm always seeking His truth on a matter (and always open to correction)!

 

[gratis]

But anyhow, one reason I am currently "unchurched" is because so many topics like this keep coming to my attention that just don't flow with mainstream Christianity - be it end times beliefs, salvation issues, tithing issues, gathering/fellowsipping issues etc. I keep getting red flags popping up in the things being taught in church that make me dig into the scriptures to search it out for myself. So I'm always seeking His truth on a matter (and always open to correction)!

I hear ya! I'm almost un-churched myself. There is just so much doctrine out there that doesn't really seem to belong because it's simply based on scripture verses taken out of their original context.

It makes studying the bible difficult because when questions like these arise - the answers just don't add up...

 

[malckiah]

Hello friend, Ok, i dont really understand why there is a debate on this because scripturally the answer is pretty simple. I do not in any way mean to say that this is a stupid question, because indeed it is not!
The answer would be that indeed because God knows all things He knows who would choose Him....so in essence those that will choose Him He already knew so He could call them pre-destined, but remember the Bible says that God desires all people to come to salvation, so we know that He did not create anyone wanting them to be doomed to hell. So here is where our own freewill comes in....We can either choose to deny Him or to Accept Him. To say that God predestined by "His" choice to predestine only certain people, would not only be un-scriptural, but also would go against God's character!
So, we must accept that it is one's own freewill to accept or decline Him and thus deciding their own fate. And that when the Bible speaks of predestined, you must take into account that God knows all things!

 

[If Not For Grace]

IMHO it's like an unsolicited job offer, you get an offer, but you still are free to decline. WHOSOEVER will...not just a select few are "chosen" as in selected. The Jews were the "chosen" as in favorite. This does not mean all Jews will nor that EVERYBODY will. God gives all an opportunity to Choose, so in that respect HE chooses to give you a choice.

 

[Count]

It is difficult for us to understand somethings because we are inside of time and space. But God is outside of time and space.

This means that at this very moment He is in the first day of creation, at this very moment He is talking with Moses, at this very moment He is looking at Christ's crucifiction, at this very moment He is in the moment I accepted Christ some years ago, at this very moment we are with Him in the heavenly places, we are there celebrating with Him.

So, if you see things from this point of view, it is easy to understand if He has chosen us or not.

 

[MellieMoo]

Hmmm. Lots of things to think about. Yes, I agree that because God knows all things he knew who would choose him, and that it is us who do not know.

But what about scripture like this:

"Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." Acts4:27-28 (that was NIV translation for clarity)

Additionally:

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

Could it be that BECAUSE we do not know who is God's elect we are to take the gospel to every human being as a candidate for salvation?

PS. Not trying to debate, just understand.

 

[woman.at.the.well]

i am curious to know everyones feelings and beliefs on whether we are allready chosen, or whether we chose our salvation

chosen AND that we choose our salvation. Based on the following scripture references.

From Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


Ephesians 1:
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

and again in . . .

10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

 

[simplyg123]

the way i see it, God knows, and has written it down, he knows who will chose him, so because we chose him, he elects us to be with him. if we are in his book, we cannot be erased.

 

[Count]

the way i see it, God knows, and has written it down, he knows who will chose him, so because we chose him, he elects us to be with him. if we are in his book, we cannot be erased.

The word "knows" I think is not the right one, because this way we put God in our limits. Humans can know something will happen in the future, God doesn't just know it, He is there.