pre-destination

jameshjr

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o. Yesterday i was watching some of RC Sproul's video series about love on youtube.

He mentioned a new idea to me about (calvinist) predestination (that God has elected people before time to be saved).

To make a long story short. This has really affected me. i have spent a number of hours looking into this and i believe that he is right.

Obviously i acknowledge how great this is of God to do for me and others.

However, i am really struggling with the obvious inference that: if He chooses to save some; others (without being saved by God) will end up in hell.

I am really struggling with is the idea of people i know (whom, at this point i cannot see being saved) being tormented eternally (so far as i know) in lakes of fire and always in pain and suffering with no end, ever, with no chance/hope of ending up in heaven.

I do not really want to have a discussion about the truth of calvinism.

But,

what i would really appreciate is for others whom have come to this conclusion to share how they got over/dealt with/ made peace with this painful realisation.

Note: I know that God is just and that it is not unjust for Him to allow people to go to hell. i know God is sovereign and what he does is right and true, but as a man, i am really struggling with this.

Thank you and God bless.
 
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com7fy8

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Note: I know that God is just and that it is not unjust for Him to allow people to go to hell. i know God is sovereign and what he does is right and true, but as a man, i am really struggling with this.
I would like to offer what I have on this, but I am not officially a Calvinist. Calvinists here are welcome to evaluate what I say, in comparison with official Calvinism . . . if I may offer, here >

It is understood that God is good, no matter what is true about predestination. I could easily use scripture to argue, either way. And I could say, "Oh, if God is good, such and such has to be true." I could use this argument, either way.

So, if God is in all-control . . . therefore deciding each person's eternal destiny . . . how is this good?

Well, for one thing, God does what is good. There is His good reason, if He is making choices about humans.

What is good for Christians is how we are predestined to become conformed to the image of Jesus > Romans 8:29 < our destiny in Jesus is not only about where we will go, but how we are guaranteed to become like God's own Son so pleasing to Him. So, God choosing this for us is good, in any case!!!

And some number of free will people, along with God-controlled destiny believers, agree that God does use Satan and evil people for God's good purposes. The disagreement is about if these ones really control their own choice about where they are going. But they, either way, in my opinion, serve God's purpose by being vessels of dishonor (Romans 9:21) . . . for carrying the spirit of evil to the flaming sewer. Satan's evil spirit > Ephesians 2:2 > is in organized human forms so it is not all over the place in total chaos.

So, God is using them for a very good purpose, whether they really have chosen this or not.
 
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jameshjr

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Hi James (@jameshjr), I will be along in a short while to comment (Dv). Thank you for moving your thread onto this board :oldthumbsup:

Blessings to you in Christ!

--David

No problem David, thanks for the suggestion.
 
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jameshjr

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I would like to offer what I have on this, but I am not officially a Calvinist. Calvinists here are welcome to evaluate what I say, in comparison with official Calvinism . . . if I may offer, here >

Hello com7fy8, thank you for the message.

I understand what you have said and agree but I have a problem with the idea of making vessels of dishonor (not that it is incorrect but from my human viewpoint)

Again, i know that God is good and just but i find it so difficult to take that another person can be left to go to hell because God chose not to save them. From my human empathy this idea is horrible to me.

Again, i know that God is good and that He can do nothing that isn't perfect and just and right and that if calvinism is accurate that it is a failing on my part that i do not accept it.

But i have to say the joy of my salvation is tainted by the knowledge of what is to come to those whom arent selected.

And, if it is true, how are we to interact with people whom, say, we have shared the gospel with but whom have not responded and it seems as though they are not of the elect. how are we to view/interact with them with anything but pity and sorrow?
 
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com7fy8

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And, if it is true, how are we to interact with people whom, say, we have shared the gospel with but whom have not responded and it seems as though they are not of the elect. how are we to view/interact with them with anything but pity and sorrow?
Jesus wept over Jerusalem, and He knew some number of them would not repent. So, it looks to me like Jesus had pity and sorrow for ones He knew would go to hell.

In case someone refuses us, still God is able to change them later . . . even using our message and . . . example. We are not to put some final label on anyone, but trust each person to God. 1 Timothy 2:1-4, I understand, says what to do "first". To me, this means to pray with hope for any and all people. Love "hopes all things" > in 1 Corinthians 13:7. If God says to do this "first", I would say God knows this works.

God uses example. Do what God can use. Your example and what you say and do are sown like seed, which God is able to grow. So, we do what can work, and trust God with this.

Ones of Jerusalem were going to be involved in hating and so torturing and murdering Jesus; but Jesus wept over them . . . knowing, I would say, what they were going to do to Him > I'll bet you also might have a human issue with that :) I need to love like that >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God or a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

This loving is included in our destiny as God's children. God is guaranteed to succeed in doing in us all His words means . . . to Him > Isaiah 55:11.

Biblical predestination, then, is not a matter only of who goes where and who decides. So, our attention mainly needs to be to how God's grace in us succeeds to have us be and love like Jesus. And grace does this basic meaning, then, of God's word >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippines 2:13)

So, whatsoever God's word means for us to do, we do this in sharing with God having us succeed.

So, in case God's word really does mean God is in all-control, how is it Biblical for us to live this? Jesus says to deny ourselves, which includes our own human free wills and where our human ability can get us. Take up our cross, by loving the way Jesus on the cross so loved . . . but while sweetly pleasing our Father > "as a sweet-smelling aroma" (Ephesians 5:2) > therefore, be sweetly pleasing God while we love any and all people and suffer however. Know how only with God can we do this. And know He is so almighty and in all-control, so there is no hope of ourselves or anything else being able to get us to do this. And so, trust and depend on God at every moment, as the only One who can do anything really right > and so we are worshiping Him while so considering Him and submitting to Him all the time > "Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7).

And if we know how God is in absolute control, we can't be fooled into using the world's methods of fighting for things and control; our methods are superior to the methods of conquerors >

"Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." (Romans 8:37)

With God, we can accomplish more than what conquerors can do with their methods. And in order to do this, what does God's word say to do "first"? 1 Timothy 2:1-4 > pray, give all to God. Then do whatever He has us doing . . . in personal and sensitive sharing with Him in His own peace > Colossians 3:15. This peace is almighty, if this is God's peace; therefore, this peace "will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus," . . . while we pray the way Philippians 4:6-7 means. And as we obey this, Jesus guarantees, "you will find rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:28-30) > no matter what this evil world seems to be succeeding in doing, then > you know God is all-controlling and almighty in us to keep us in His perfect peace.

And whatever He has you doing will work, howsoever He pleases. Because He is almighty and His grace is almighty to do all I have summarized above. And I understand that John Calvin said God's grace can not be resisted. If His grace is almighty, this could explain why. Now, as I have offered, our official Calvinists here are of course welcome to evaluate about if I have represented their understanding of predestination correctly. It is about how God's grace is guaranteed to succeed in all God desires . . . all God means by His word. And so we simply give all to Jesus, trust Him with all, while growing in perfect submission with Him and one another helping each other with this.

We do this as family of God, helping one another. This is included in how God's grace blesses us. If God is truly in all-control, then, the Biblical meaning of this is not to judge and criticize Him, of course! But depend on Him totally, and leave behind however we are, at any moment, for the sake of how we can become with Jesus and His loving. Do not look to ourselves to boast how we can do anything, then. Paul says he died "daily" > in 1 Corinthians 15:31. I see he means he constantly died to self, for the sake of personally submitting to God. So, no matter what or who might come to control our attention, by charming or threatening us . . . answer to God, first, do what He has us doing to love. Because He alone is doing what is good . . . in sharing with us who obey. And He has all-loving results of what He has us doing, like how He did with Joseph > Genesis 37-50.

So, if God is in absolute control . . . no matter how this evil world makes things look >

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)
 
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jameshjr

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Jesus wept over Jerusalem, and He knew some number of them would not repent. So, it looks to me like Jesus had pity and sorrow for ones He knew would go to hell.

Thank you for the message com7fy8. There was a lot to take in there, but from my initial reading nothing that i disagreed with.

I thought you gave a good answer to my question which you quoted. Amen, i am not to appoint anothers final destination and amen that God has their entire life to save them.

Therefore, i will not give up hope on anyone. i will pray for more courage to share the gospel with people i know, therefore i can rest easier knowing that i am doing everything 'i' can do to help people be saved.

Thank you again for the message, i think that it will help me going forward.

God bless.
 
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Clare73

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o. Yesterday i was watching some of RC Sproul's video series about love on youtube.

He mentioned a new idea to me about (calvinist) predestination (that God has elected people before time to be saved).

To make a long story short. This has really affected me. i have spent a number of hours looking into this and i believe that he is right.

Obviously i acknowledge how great this is of God to do for me and others.

However, i am really struggling with the obvious inference that: if He chooses to save some; others (without being saved by God) will end up in hell.

I am really struggling with is the idea of people i know (whom, at this point i cannot see being saved) being tormented eternally (so far as i know) in lakes of fire and always in pain and suffering with no end, ever, with no chance/hope of ending up in heaven.

I do not really want to have a discussion about the truth of calvinism.

But,
what i would really appreciate is for others whom have come to this conclusion to share how they got over/dealt with/ made peace with this painful realisation.

Note: I know that God is just and that it is not unjust for Him to allow people to go to hell. i know God is sovereign and what he does is right and true, but as a man, i am really struggling with this.

Thank you and God bless.
Well, I had to come to terms with the fact that
our ways are not God's ways, that his ways and thoughts are higher than our ways and thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9);

that he is all-wise and all-just (Isaiah 40:13-14; Psalms 89:14);

that he always does what is best and what is right, whether I see and understand it or not (Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalms 119:68; Daniel 4:37); and

most importantly of all,
that he tells it is not mine to understand, rather it is mine to trust in him with all my heart and lean not on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5).

And so I trust him with all my heart.
Though he slay me, yet will I trust him (Job 13:15).
 
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St_Worm2

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Hello @jameshjr, perhaps the most difficult Divine mystery that Calvinists are oft-times faced with trying to explain is the one that you are bothered by now. IOW, since God is the one who chooses who will be saved, and since He is capable of saving everyone, why doesn't He just go ahead and do so, yes :scratch:

The fact is, He hasn't told us why He (for instance) chose you for salvation, but not your neighbor, or what the basis for His choice of you, rather than your neighbor, was. Or perhaps I should say instead that He hasn't given us a reason/reasons for the Divine election of the saints that most are willing to accept from Him .. e.g. Romans 9:6-29.

As I'm sure Dr. Sproul might say, the question shouldn't be, "why doesn't God save everyone", rather, the real question that needs to be considered is, "why did He choose to save anyone", since all of us are sinners and deserve to die and be punished for our sins?

I have found God to be exceedingly loving and trustworthy (first and foremost of all at the Cross), so even though I do not know the answer to this mystery, I trust that whatever He chose/chooses to do is for the very best .. cf Deuteronomy 29:29. He has also promised to dry every tear of the saints at the end of the age, and that there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain in the age to come, so I suspect that we will come to understand why He did what He did someday .. e.g. Revelation 21:1-4 (esp v4).

I hope that helps. We can continue to discuss it, of course :)

God bless you!

--David
p.s. - the Arminian/Free Will believer will often say that God's election of the saints/His reason for choosing us, is based upon our prior (foreseen) choice of Him. One of the parts of Arminian/Free will soteriology that I began to have a difficult time with is why most among us, when faced with deciding between Heaven and Hell, between living out eternity in bliss/joy/happiness with our loving Abba, or living out eternity in torment, suffering, pain and darkness, apart from Him (in the abode that the Lord Jesus describes as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth), freely choose the never-ending torment/suffering in Hell over never-ending joy and happiness in Heaven/on the New Earth :scratch:

The assumption is also that the people who choose an eternity of suffering and torment in the Lake of Fire know what they are doing (IOW, that they are at least somewhat reasonable, rational and informed people who are intelligent enough to understand the choice that they are making). The thing is, most, if not all, who are reasonable, rational, intelligent and informed would never make a choice like that!!

This is going on too long, so I'll stop here. If you'd like to continue discussing any of this, just go ahead and do so :)
 
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St_Worm2

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Amen, i am not to appoint another's final destination and amen that God has their entire life to save them. Therefore, i will not give up hope on anyone. i will pray for more courage to share the gospel with people i know, therefore i can rest easier knowing that i am doing everything 'i' can do to help people be saved.
Dr. Sproul and many of the other teaching fellows at Ligonier have encouraged their students to think like that about the unsaved (that we are to be "Charles Spurgeon" Calvinists :)).

I believe you have it figured out, because we cannot know who the elect really are until they come to saving faith in/are given eternal life by the Lord Jesus. So, I believe that the Divine "election" of the saints is something that God makes known to us for the sake of our assurance, security and comfort as His adopted children, not as a means of setting us apart from others.

--David

Spurgeon - If Sinners - No One Unwarned-Unprayed for..jpg
 
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com7fy8

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IOW, since God is the one who chooses who will be saved, and since He is capable of saving everyone, why doesn't He just go ahead and do so, yes :scratch:
I have learned that it is not all about simply saving us so we go to Heaven. But God wants many children who are and love like Jesus . . . who are pleasing to Him in His love, like His own Son Jesus is >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, it's the quality He wants, not only quantity. And as He saves a person, there is His process of fitting the person into Jesus Christ's body, as a member of Christ, in relationship and relating with all the others who are members of Jesus. And this includes how we minister His own grace to one another, with each member doing one's share to minister this grace which changes and matures us to be more like Jesus . . . along with one another.

So, the shoulder gets stronger, along with the arm, along with the hand . . . growing with one another . . . not a bunch of individuals each mainly concerned about themselves > but > praying >

"for all the saints" (in Ephesians 6:18).

So, possibly the main ministry of the church is as we see in Ephesians 4:15 > ministering for one another to grow up "in all things" of Jesus. And love as His family > Ephesians 4:31-32.
 
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jameshjr

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Well, I had to come to terms with the fact that
our ways are not God's ways, that his ways and thoughts are higher than our ways and thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9);

Hello Clare, Thank you for the message. All quotes are ones that i know and am aiming to get to, its just this in between phase that is giving me difficulties.
 
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jameshjr

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Dr. Sproul and many of the other teaching fellows at Ligonier have encouraged their students to think like that about the unsaved (that we are to be "Charles Spurgeon" Calvinists :))

Hey there David, i have since seen a few articles where people explain that they believe in both (arminianism and calvinism) as there is evidence in the bible for both viewpoints. When asked to explain how they reconcile this contradiction, they state that they dont need to, and that they are not able to.

Therefore, i am aiming at getting to the point where i believe and act out according to the quote you posted by Charles Spurgeon; because i do not think God would hold it against me if i were to preach to people He wasn't going to save, assuming calvinism is accurate, and in fact would it actually be my choice if i were to do so, anyway. And if arminianism is accurate, then telling people of the Gosple would be in my credit as it is from my free-will and following the command of Jesus to tell everyone about Him.
 
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jameshjr

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[QUOTE="com7fy8,
[/QUOTE]

Thank you Com7fy8, I agree with the point you made. I think Christian forums is a great example of it.

It is always remarkable to me that i can make a post about a problem i am having and have strangers from all over the world spend their time and energy to try to help me.
 
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St_Worm2

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...i do not think God would hold it against me if i were to preach to people He wasn't going to save.....
Hello again James, since none of us are privy to such information from the Godhead and cannot, therefore, know who the elect truly are (until they have already come to saving faith), we are commanded to preach and/or pray for the salvation of all/of "every creature" .. Mark 16:15).

We are to follow the Lord's commands in any case .. e.g. Mark 16:15, Acts 1:8, yes, which is the very thing that the Spurgeon quote above admonishes us to do :)

Blessings to you in Christ!

--David
 
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Clare73

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Hello Clare, Thank you for the message. All quotes are ones that i know and am aiming to get to, its just this in between phase that is giving me difficulties.
I understand. . .

I think the in-between phase is helped by that it is in between. . .life and death.
For what makes this so hard to accept is our thinking of it in terms of someone we love.
But then, no matter what the state they are in now, we don't know their future and where they will end up spiritually, so no need to dwell on it.
Ours, then, is at least to pray for their spiritual regeneration.
 
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