Matthew 24:30 was fulfilled in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow.
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Interplanner
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It is definitely not that Interp. His kingdom has its own non civic power, and was set back in the 1st generation. The power is the Word.
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So do you believe that the Resurrection is past?
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken : 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31
Why is the sun, moon and stars still in the sky?
If every person on earth saw Jesus Coming in the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory, then why is there still unsaved people on the earth if Jesus was seen by all?
Where is Jesus if He has returned?
Where are the resurrected saints will immortal bodies that will never die?
Why is there still wars and rumors of wars?
Why are there still corrupt and wicked rulers and authorities?
Why is there still wicked and lawless ones that still offend left on earth, because when He comes, His angels will gather all those who are not His and cast them into hell?
This is just a small list of question that every preterist must answer with scripture from the New Testament as being fulfilled.
Everything in the Old Testament was just a shadow and Type of the reality of What Jesus fulfilled!
JLB
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Hi all,
Well, if I might, let's take these great scholars one by one. Here's a review of Jay Adams work:
This book is sort of a “recent classic,” first copyrighted in 1966 and reprinted four times since then. It’s a discussion of Bible chronology, leaning heavily upon a historical analysis of the book of Revelation.
Adams is a “realized millennialist,” meaning he believes the 1000-year millennium spoken of in Revelation (an “age” not necessarily meaning precisely 1000 years) has already arrived. It began in early New Testament times, and continues till the present. This is the period in which Satan is bound in chains. “Binding” doesn’t mean total inability, of course, for then one could hardly believe Jesus when he claimed to bind the strong man (Satan).
Now, since Adams is also a post-millennialist, meaning he believes Jesus will arrive after the millennium, he is able to reconcile the fact that Revelation’s horrors mimic precisely the age in which its author lived (the first century) and still look forward to Christ’s second coming. The “real” golden age, with eternal life, is just around the corner. The time is at hand.
I applaud the way Adams takes seriously the references in Revelation to the first century and the urgency of its message. Still, this interpretation always feels to me a little like having your cake and eating it too.
The first comment that strikes me as odd is that he believes that Satan has already been bound. Do we believe this?
He believes that the 1,000 years reign of our Lord is not necessarily one thousand years. In fact, he believes that it has now spanned nearly 2,000 years. Do we believe this?
God bless you all.
In Christ, Ted
Well, if I might, let's take these great scholars one by one. Here's a review of Jay Adams work:
This book is sort of a “recent classic,” first copyrighted in 1966 and reprinted four times since then. It’s a discussion of Bible chronology, leaning heavily upon a historical analysis of the book of Revelation.
Adams is a “realized millennialist,” meaning he believes the 1000-year millennium spoken of in Revelation (an “age” not necessarily meaning precisely 1000 years) has already arrived. It began in early New Testament times, and continues till the present. This is the period in which Satan is bound in chains. “Binding” doesn’t mean total inability, of course, for then one could hardly believe Jesus when he claimed to bind the strong man (Satan).
Now, since Adams is also a post-millennialist, meaning he believes Jesus will arrive after the millennium, he is able to reconcile the fact that Revelation’s horrors mimic precisely the age in which its author lived (the first century) and still look forward to Christ’s second coming. The “real” golden age, with eternal life, is just around the corner. The time is at hand.
I applaud the way Adams takes seriously the references in Revelation to the first century and the urgency of its message. Still, this interpretation always feels to me a little like having your cake and eating it too.
The first comment that strikes me as odd is that he believes that Satan has already been bound. Do we believe this?
He believes that the 1,000 years reign of our Lord is not necessarily one thousand years. In fact, he believes that it has now spanned nearly 2,000 years. Do we believe this?
God bless you all.
In Christ, Ted
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Here is the Scriptural account of the thousand year reign:
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
The author of this review says that while Mr. Adams believes that Satan is bound, it does not mean that he is not still with us. However, the Scriptures attest that he is bound and sealed so that he does not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.
The Scriptural account also says that there is a resurrection of 'those who believed the testimony of Jesus' returning to life. Have we seen this? The Scriptures also tell us that the rest of the dead did not come to life and this would presuppose that only those who believe in Jesus are now alive at this time that this Scripture speaks of. Have we seen this?
So, on these points I would give Mr. Adams a failing grade in his understanding of the Scriptures because I certainly can't find where his understanding agrees with the Scriptures.
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
The author of this review says that while Mr. Adams believes that Satan is bound, it does not mean that he is not still with us. However, the Scriptures attest that he is bound and sealed so that he does not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.
The Scriptural account also says that there is a resurrection of 'those who believed the testimony of Jesus' returning to life. Have we seen this? The Scriptures also tell us that the rest of the dead did not come to life and this would presuppose that only those who believe in Jesus are now alive at this time that this Scripture speaks of. Have we seen this?
So, on these points I would give Mr. Adams a failing grade in his understanding of the Scriptures because I certainly can't find where his understanding agrees with the Scriptures.
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
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Interplanner
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There are more than 1000 hills on which the Lord has cattle, too.
All of these questions simply come down to what type of Lordship did Christ assume after being raised in glory. it is not a state government as we know it, but it was a kingdom as defined by him. That is the very long reign of Christ, for which 1000 years is a great image, especially when kings are spanning a few decades at the most.
All of these questions simply come down to what type of Lordship did Christ assume after being raised in glory. it is not a state government as we know it, but it was a kingdom as defined by him. That is the very long reign of Christ, for which 1000 years is a great image, especially when kings are spanning a few decades at the most.
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Hi interplanner,
Oh, I don't for a minute doubt that there are those who believe what Mr. Adams has written and what he seems to profess to believe. I'm sure he sold more than one book only to himself.
But, the question is not whether any of us believes in what Mr. Adams believes, but whether what Mr. Adams believes is in line with the Scriptures. Yes, I absolutely agree that if we only and always only consider the reference to the thousand years as being some span of time greater than a thousand years that we can find Scriptural evidence that might support such a belief. But, what about Satan being bound and sealed in the abyss so that he does not deceive the nations any longer? Is there any born again believer that believes that Satan has been so bound and dispossessed? Are there any born again believers that honestly believe that Satan is not now roaming like a lion seeing who he can devour?
What about the explanation that only those in Christ will be raised to life to enjoy this reign? That all of the wicked dead will still be dead. Are there any born again believers that thinks we are now living in a time when we have been raised to life and the wicked are not here with us? Is there any born again believer among us who believes that all the wicked are still in their graves? For some 2,000 years now?!
So, I'll go ahead and give you that we might not understand the span of this 1,000 years, although I personally believe that it will be 1,000 years, but what about all the other tells of this 1,000 year reign of our Lord? Let's go ahead and agree that what Mr. Adams says is true regarding the span of the reign. That it has actually been going on since shortly after Jesus left us. Does anyone really believe that Peter warned us of something that we have no need for warning:
Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
If Satan is bound and sealed and no longer able to deceive the nations, then why is Peter warning us that, no, he is here with us prowling like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour? That just isn't true according to the Scriptural explanation of the 1,000 year reign.
Am I really expected to believe that with all the murder death and mayhem that occurs today in this world, that only the righteous in Christ are now alive and all the wicked are still in their graves?
So, sure, let's go ahead and stretch the 1,000 years to whatever fits our fancy, but...
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
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Interplanner
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No we believe that. "In the world you will have trouble, but I have over come the world." I trust you believe that too, during this epoch.
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Lord God Almighty, Father of your blessed and beloved
child Jesus Christ, through whom we have received knowledge of
you, God of angels and hosts and all creation, and of the whole
race of the upright who live in your presence: I bless you
that you have thought me worthy of this day and hour, to be
numbered among the martyrs and share in the cup of Christ, for
resurrection to eternal life, for soul and body in the
incorruptibility of the Holy Spirit. Among them may I be
accepted before you today, as a rich and acceptable sacrifice,
just as you, the faithful and true God, have prepared and
foreshown and brought about. For this reason and for all things
I praise you, I bless you, I glorify you, through the eternal
heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved child, through
whom be glory to you, with him and the Holy Spirit, now and for
the ages to come. Amen.
The fire was then lit and shortly thereafter a soldier stabbed Polycarp to death by order of the magistrate when the fire failed to touch him..
This took place on February 23, 156.
Polycarp was born in A.D. 69.
It is recorded by Irenaeus, and by Tertullian, that he had been a disciple of John the Apostle.
Saint Jerome wrote that Polycarp was a disciple of John and that John had ordained him bishop of Smyrna.
Polycarp said that no church in Smyrna existed during the ministry of Paul.
Paul died around 66-67 AD.
To the Church in Smyrna
And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.
It sounds to me like Polycarp ran a good church, but something doesn't add up.
At what age did John ordain him Bishop of Smyrna?
As an infant in A.D. 69?
When he was 10 years old in A.D. 79?
When he turned 20 years of age in A.D. 89?
How about when he turned 30 years old in A.D. 99?
How young could Polycarp have been before he could be ordained by the apostle John as the Bishop of Smyrna and have God write a review of his church?
If you ask any of "the wise and learned" from the list in the OP, he would have had to been the first Baby Bishop of a church that wasn't built yet.
Polycarp said that no church in Smyrna existed during the ministry of Paul, who died around 66-67 AD., before he was even born.
After reading his last prayer, I will take him at his word.
The Book of Revelation
Written in A.D. 94
Solved by Old Dave
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I thought the timing would be good to bring aboard an opinion from the antithesis of any scholar, ie, about as low as you can go. Satan personally has total inability to prevent the heralding of the gospel to all the nations in light of Lk.11:21, 22 & Rev.20:2. Satan is personally in hell until Rev.20:7 having to work through the antichristian agencies since the Cross. Satan's titles after the Cross are personifications, and not him personally lurking around as fallaciously pervasively taught today.
I'm definitely not a post-millennialist, however am a Nowist, ie, Amillennialist.
The latter "I believe."
Only old Jack's lower paygrade opinion
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I don't believe Polycarp ever said that. It appears to be a myth. This is the chapter where some claim Polycarp said what you said:
"I am greatly grieved for Valens, who was once a presbyter among you, because he so little understands the place that was given him [in the Church]. I exhort you, therefore, that ye abstain from covetousness, and that ye be chaste and truthful. "Abstain from every form of evil." For if a man cannot govern himself in such matters, how shall he enjoin them on others? If a man does not keep himself from covetousness, he shall be defiled by idolatry, and shall be judged as one of the heathen. But who of us are ignorant of the judgment of the Lord? "Do we not know that the saints shall judge the world?" as Paul teaches. But I have neither seen nor heard of any such thing among you, in the midst of whom the blessed Paul laboured, and who are commended in the beginning of his Epistle. For he boasts of you in all those Churches which alone then knew the Lord; but we [of Smyrna] had not yet known Him. I am deeply grieved, therefore, brethren, for him (Valens) and his wife; to whom may the Lord grant true repentance! And be ye then moderate in regard to this matter, and "do not count such as enemies," but call them back as suffering and straying members, that ye may save your whole body. For by so acting ye shall edify yourselves." [Roberts & Donaldson, The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Chapter XI, p.35]
I believe those who "found" what you quoted could best be described as "wishful thinkers".
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Those are very good points. Did you ever consider that the fellow running around in AD90 was not John, but a false apostle? We were warned there would be some; and that they would appear to be righteous:
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." -- 2Cor 11:13-15
"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" -- Rev 2:2
It cannot be proven that this so-called "John" ever wrote anything. Irenaeus' statement, written a century after the fact, is at best ambiguous; and his knowledge of Polycarp is limited to his childhood. Further, this John, so-called, seemed to have remarkable longevity in an age when "60" was considered old. Personally, I believe Irenaeus and Polycarp were both fooled by a fellow who called himself John.
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Those are very good points. Did you ever consider that the fellow running around in AD90 was not John, but a false apostle? We were warned there would be some; and that they would appear to be righteous:
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." -- 2Cor 11:13-15
"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" -- Rev 2:2
It cannot be proven that this so-called "John" ever wrote anything. Irenaeus' statement, written a century after the fact, is at best ambiguous; and his knowledge of Polycarp is limited to his childhood. Further, this John, so-called, seemed to have remarkable longevity in an age when "60" was considered old. Personally, I believe Irenaeus and Polycarp were both fooled by a fellow who called himself John.
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Rev20, Relax, OK? They've been going around in circles with this stuff for 100's of years. You and me aren't going to solve it tonight so lets take a break. Summers still burning in my area and I got the week off, lets get our 12 speeds out and go for a ride around the lake. Fresh air will do us good.
Old Dave
Still a Preterist Party Pooper
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Why did you bring them up, if you didn't want to discuss them, Dave? This is a debate forum, the last time I checked.
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Interplanner
Newbie
I have never understood the age of John for the time that the late date requires. 80s, 90s, in prison... However, I also allow for direct conception in the case of Sarah and Elizabeth in menopause.
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Only from a lower paygrade as a summary overview. Off the top the apostle John lived and labored out of Ephesus since the days of the Jewish war in 70 A.D. which destroyed the Jewish nation. Domitian died September 18, 96 eyeballing one of my old notes. This date makes it necessary to place the visions in Revelation in the year 96 to me anyway.
John wasn't exiled by the emperor himself, correct? He was condemned to exile by the proconsul or similar authority...been awhile...remember this from the historian Zahn. There's nothing to prevent us from dating Revelation in the year 96, the actual year of Dominitians death, correct? Nerva ruled until 98, then followed Trajan. John was released after Domitian's death, and died during Trajan's death, correct?
Then we have Irenaeus from my old notes (Heresis III, 4, 4) who states that John lived until the time of Trajan (98-117). Eusebius (Church History 5, 8) quotes Irenaeus to the effect that Revelation was seen almost in the memory of men then living, namely "toward the end of the reign of Domintian" (died in 96).
Old Amill. Jack's opinion
John wasn't exiled by the emperor himself, correct? He was condemned to exile by the proconsul or similar authority...been awhile...remember this from the historian Zahn. There's nothing to prevent us from dating Revelation in the year 96, the actual year of Dominitians death, correct? Nerva ruled until 98, then followed Trajan. John was released after Domitian's death, and died during Trajan's death, correct?
Then we have Irenaeus from my old notes (Heresis III, 4, 4) who states that John lived until the time of Trajan (98-117). Eusebius (Church History 5, 8) quotes Irenaeus to the effect that Revelation was seen almost in the memory of men then living, namely "toward the end of the reign of Domintian" (died in 96).
Old Amill. Jack's opinion
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Why did you bring them up, if you didn't want to discuss them, Dave? This is a debate forum, the last time I checked.
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The mark of the beast is now hear!
This is the only time in the history that the ability to control buying and selling through a RFID chip has been available.
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:9-12
Satan will be cast into the lake of fire and be tormented day and night.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.Revelation 20:10
JLB
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Only a head's up, eg, Rev.13:17, "not able to buy or sell" needs to contextually be viewed more symbolically, eg, "666" is a symbolical number of course.
Old Jack''s opinion
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