Pre AD70 revelation..list of scholars supporting it

[LittleLambofJesus]

This was taken from another thread and I thought it would be appropriate here......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7831421/

Telling me I should stop believing in two bit false teachers and should believe in Thomas Ice instead, is an oxymoron.
Pot, meet Kettle.

I read it - besides the multiple falsehoods it contained, what was missing is the list of Scholars who believe in the late date......Was that somewhere else?

Oh no you dih-in't....

I'll post a PARTIAL list of published Scholars who advocate the pre 70 Date, you post your list of published scholars who advocate the post 95 Date and we will see who has the "majority" shall we?

(My apologies to our readers for Hijacking the thread for the next few posts, but when someone falsely accuses me of having no evidence,- when in fact THEY are the ones without evidence - i am compelled to carpet bomb.....)

Ready?
GO:

• Jay E. Adams, The Time Is at Hand (Philipsburg: 1966).
• D.E. Aune, Revelation 1—5 (WBC, 52A; Nashville: 1997) ; Revelation 6—16 (WBC, 52B; Nashville: 1998a) ; Revelation 17—22 (WBC, 52C; Nashville: 1998b).
• Greg L. Bahnsen, Victory in Jesus: The Bright Hope of Postmillennialism (1999).
• Joseph R. Balyeat, Babylon - The Great City of Revelation (1991).
• Arthur Stapylton Barnes, Christianity at Rome in the Apostolic Age (Westport: 1938), pp. 159ff.
• R. Bauckham, The Climax of Prophecy: Studies on the Book of Revelation (Edinburgh: 1993).
• W. Bauer, W.F. Arndt and F.W. Gingrich, A Greek—English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (1979).
• Ulrich R. Beeson, The Revelation (1956 PDF).
• Albert A. Bell, Jr., "The Date of John’s Apocalypse. The Evidence of Some Roman Historians Reconsidered," New Testament Studies 25 (1979): 93-102
• Charles Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, ed. by T. B. Strong (Oxford: 1909), pp. 30,48.
• F.F. Bruce, New Testament History (Garden City: 1969), p.411.
• Rudolf Bultmann (1976).
• R. Carré, `Othon et Vitellius, deux nouveaux Néron?', in J.-M. Croisille, R. Martin and Y. Perrin (eds.), Neronia V. Néron: histoire et légende (Collection Latomus, 247; Brussels: 1999): 152-81.
• David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: 1985); and The Days of Vengeance (Ft. Worth, TX: 1987).
• William Newton Clarke, An Outline of Christian Theology (New York: 1903).
• Adela Yarbro Collins, The Combat Myth in the Book of Revelation (Harvard Theological Review; Harvard Dissertations in Religion, 9; (Missoula: 1976) ; Crisis and Catharsis: The Power of the Apocalypse (Philadelphia: 1984).
• W. Gary Crampton, Biblical Hermeneutics (1986), p. 42.
• Berry Stewart Crebs, The Seventh Angel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1938).
• Gary DeMar, End Times Fiction ; Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church
• George Edmundson, The Church in Rome in the First Century (London: 1913 PDF).
• George P. Fisher, The Beginnings of Christianity, with a View to the State of the Roman World at the Birth of Christ (New York: 1916), pp. 534ff.
• J. Massyngberde Ford, Revelation. Anchor Bible (Garden City, NY: 1975).
• S.J. Friesen, Twice Neokoros: Ephesus, Asia and the Cult of the Flavian Imperial Family (Religions in the Graeco-Roman World, 116; Leiden: 1993) ; Imperial Cults and the Apocalypse of John: Reading Revelation in the Ruins (New York: 2001) ; `Satan's Throne, Imperial Cults and the Social Settings of Revelation', JSNT 27 (2005): 351-73.
• A.J.P. Garrow, Revelation (New Testament Readings; London: 1997).
• Kenneth L. Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell, An Exegetical and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition, (1989)
• Robert McQueen Grant, A Historical Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Harper & Row, 1963), p. 237.
• Samuel G. Green, A Handbook of Church History from the Apostolic Era to the Dawn of the Reformation (London: 1904), p. 64.
• I. Head, `Mark as a Roman Document from the Year 69: Testing Martin Hengel's Thesis', JRH 28 (2004): 240-59.
• Bernard W. Henderson, The Life and Principate of the Emperor Nero (London: Methuen, 1903).
• M. Hengel, Studies in the Gospel of Mark ( Philadelphia: 1985).
• David Hill, New Testament Prophecy (Atlanta: John Knox, 1979), pp. 218-219.
• B. Kowalski, Die Rezeption des Propheten Ezechiel in der O fenbarung des Johannes (Stuttgarter Biblische Beiträge, 52; Stuttgart: Verlag Katholisches Bibelwerk, 2004).
• P. Lampe, From Paul to Valentinus: Christians at Rome in the First Two Centuries (transl. and ed. M. Steinhauser and M.D. Johnson; London: 2003).
• Francis Nigel Lee, Revelation and Jerusalem (Brisbane: 1985)
• Peter J. Leithart, The Promise of His Appearing (2004 PDF)
• J.W. Marshall, Parables of War: Reading John's Jewish Apocalypse (Studies in Christianity and Judaism, 10; Waterloo, Ont.: 2001) ; `Who's on the Throne? Revelation in the Long Year', in R.S. Boustan and A.Y. Reed (eds.), Heavenly Realms and Earthly Realities in Late Antique Religions (Cambridge: 2004): 123-41.
• A. D. Momigliano, Cambridge Ancient History (1934).
• Charles Herbert Morgan, et. al., Studies in the Apostolic Church (New York: 1902), pp. 210ff.
• C. F. D. Moule, The Birth of the New Testament, 3rd ed. (New York: 1982), p. 174.56
• Robert L. Pierce, The Rapture Cult (Signal Mtn., TN: 1986)
• T. Randell, "Revelation" in H. D. M. Spence &Joseph S. Exell, eds., The Pulpit Cornmentary, vol. 22 (Grand Rapids: 1950).
• James J. L. Ratton, The Apocalypse of St. John (London: 1912).
• J. W. Roberts, The Revelation to John (Austin, TX: Sweet, 1974).
• John A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia: 1976).
• G. Rojas-Flores, `The Book of Revelation and the First Years of Nero's Reign ', Bib 85 (2004): 375-92.
• C. Rowland, The Open Heaven: A Study of Apocalyptic in Judaism and Early Christianity (New York: 1982).
• W. Sanday (1908). Introduction to the New Testament.
• J. J. Scott, The Apocalypse, or Revelation of S. John the Divine (London: 1909).
• Edward Gordon Selwyn, The Christian Prophets and the Apocalypse (Cambridge: 1900); and The Authorship of the Apocalypse (1900).
• T.B. Slater, `Dating the Apocalypse to John', Bib 84 (2003): 252-58.
• D. Moody Smith, "A Review of John A. T. Robinson’s Redating the New Testament," Duke Diviniep School Review 42 (1977): 193-205.
• A.G. Soeting, Auditieve aspecten van het boek Openbaring van Johannes (PhD thesis, University of Amsterdam; 2001).
• Charles Cutler Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, (ch. 5); and The Apocalypse of John (New Haven: Yale, 1958).
• Cornelis Vanderwaal, Hal Lindsey and Biblical Prophecy (Ontario: 1978); and Search the Scriptures, vol. 10 (1979).
• J.W. Van Henten, `Nero Redivivus Demolished: The Coherence of the Nero Traditions in the Sibylline Oracles', JSP 21 (2000): 3-17.
• G.H. Van Kooten, 'The Year of the Four Emperors and the Revelation of John' (PDF): The `pro-Neronian' Emperors Otho and Vitellius, and the Images and Colossus of Nero in Rome' (Journal for the Study of the New Testament, Vol. 30, No. 2, 205-248 (2007) ; 2005 `"Wrath Will Drip in the Plains of Macedonia": Expectations of Nero's Return in the Egyptian Sibylline Oracles (Book 5), 2 Thessalonians, and Ancient Historical Writings', in A. Hilhorst and G.H. van Kooten (eds.), The Wisdom of Egypt: Jewish, Early Christian, and Gnostic Essays in Honour of Gerard P. Luttikhuizen (Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity, 59; Leiden: E.J. Brill): 177-215.
• Arthur Weigall, Nero: Emperor of Rome (London: Thornton Butter-worth, 1930).
• Bernhard Weiss, A Commentary on the New Testament, trans. G. H. Schodde (NY: 1906), vol. 4.
• A.N. Wilson, Paul: The Mind of the Apostle (1977), p. 11
• J. Christian Wilson, `The Problem of the Domitianic Date of Revelation ', NTS 39 (1993): 587-605.

Continued.......

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

• M. Wilson, `The Early Christians in Ephesus and the Date of Revelation, Again', Neot 39 ( 2005): 163-93.
• Herbert B. Workman, Persecution in the Early Church (London: 1906).
• Firmin Abauzit, Essai sur l’Apocalypse (Geneva: 1725) ; An Historical Discourse on the Apocalypse(1730)
• Luis de Alcasar, Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (Antwerp: 1614).
• Karl August Auberlen. Prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation of St. John in Their Mutual Relation (1856 PDF)
• B. Aubé
• James Vernon Bartlet, The Apostolic Age: Its Life, Doctrine, Worship, and Polity (Edinburgh: 1899), pp. 388ff. (AD75)
• Ferdinand Christian Baur, Church History of the First Three Centuries (Tubingen: 1863).
• Leonhard Bertholdt, Htitorisch-kritische Einleitung in die sammtlichen kanonishen u. apocryphischen Schriften des A. und N. Testaments, vol. 4 (1812 -1819).
• Willibald Beyschlag, New Testament Theology, trans. Neil Buchanan (Edinburgh: 1895).
• Friedrich Bleek, Vorlesungen und die Apocalypse (Berlin: 1859); and An Introduction to th New Testament, 2nd cd., trans. William Urwick (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1870); and Lectures on the Apocalypse, ed. Hossbach (1862).
• Alexander Brown (1878)
• Heinrich Bohmer, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Breslau: 1866).
• Wilhelm Bousset, Revelation of John (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck, 1896).
• Brown, Ordo Saeclorum, p. 679. 50
• Christian Karl Josias Bunsen.
• Cambridge Concise Bible Dictionay, editor, The Holy Bible (Cambridge), p. 127.

• Camp, Franklin.
• Newcombe Cappe
• W. Boyd Carpenter, The Revelation of St. John, in vol. 8 of Charles Ellicott, cd., Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, rep. n.d.).
• S. Cheetham, A History of the Christian Church (London: 1894) , pp. 24ff.
• Adam Clarke, Clarke’s Commentay on the Whole Bible.
• Henry Cowles, The Revelation of St. John (New York: 1871).
• Karl August Credner, Einleitung in da Neuen Testaments (1836).
• Alpheus Crosby
• R.W. Dale (1878)
• Samuel Davidson, The Doctrine af the Last Things (1882); "The Book of Revelation" in John Kitto, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature (New York: 1855); An Introduction to th Study of the New Testament ( 1851 ); Sacred Hermeneutics (Edinburgh: 1843).
• Gary DeMar, "Last Days Madness"
• Edmund De Pressense, The Early Years of Christianity, trans. Annie Harwood (New York: 1879), p. 441.
• P. S. Desprez, The Apocalypse Fulfilled, 2nd ed. (London: 1855).
• W. M. L. De Wette
• Johann Gottfried Eichhorn, Kure Erklamng hr Offmbarung (Leipzig: 1848).
• Dollinger, Dr.
• Friedrich Dusterdieck, Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Revelation of John, 3rd ed., trans. Henry E. Jacobs (New York: 1886)
• K. A. Eckhardt, Der Id da Johannes (Berlin: 1961 ).
• Alfred Edersheim, The Temple: Its Ministry and Services, pp. 141ff.
• Johann Gottfried Eichhorn, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1791).
• Erbes, Die Oflenbawzg 0s Johannis (1891).
• G. H. A. Ewald, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1828).
• Frederic W. Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity (New York: 1884).
• Grenville O. Field, Opened Seals – Open Gates (1895).
• Hermann Gebhardt, The Doctrine of the Apocalypse, trans. John Jefferson (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1878).
• Gentry, Kenneth L., Jr.
• J.C.L. Giesler (1820)
• James Glasgow, The Apocalypse: Translated and Expounded (Edinburgh: 1872).
• James Comper Gray, in Gray and Adams’ Bible Commentary, vol. V
• Hugo Grotius, Annotations in Apocalypse (Paris: 1644).
• Heinrich Ernst Ferdinand Guenke, Introduction to the New Testament (1843); and Manual of Church History, trans. W. G. T. Shedd (Boston: 1874), p. 68.
• Henry Melville Gwatkin, Early Church History to A.D. 313, vol. 1, p. 81.
• Hamilton, James.
• Henry Hammond, Paraphrase and Annotation upon the N. T (London: 1653).
• Ernest Hampden Cook
• Harbuig (1780).
• Hardouin (1741)
• Johann Christoph Harenberg, Erkiarung ( 1759).
• Friedrich Gotthold Hartwig, Apologie Der Apocalypse Wider Falschen Tadel Und Falscha (Frieberg: 1783).
• Karl August von Hase, A History of the Christian Church, 7th cd., trans. Charles E. Blumenthal and Conway P. Wing (New York: 1878), p. 33. 54
• Adolph Hausrath.
• Hawk, Ray.
• B. W. Henderson, Life and Principate of Nero, 439 f.
• Hentenius. [secondary source]
• Johann Gottfrieded von Herder, Das Buch von der Zukunft des Herrn, des Neuen Testaments Siegal (Rigs: 1779).
• J. S. Herrenschneider, Tentamen Apocalypseos illustrandae (Strassburg: 1786).
• Adolphus Hilgenfeld, Einleitung in das Neun Testaments (1875).
• Hitzig.
• Heinrich Julius Holtzmann, Die Offenbarrung des Johannis, in Bunsen’s Bibekoerk (Freiburg: 1891).
• F. J. A. Hort, The Apocalypse of St. John: 1-111, (London: Macmillan, 1908); and Judaistic Christianity (London: Macmillan, 1894).
• John Leonhard Hug, Introduction to the New Testament, trans. David Fosdick, Jr. (Andover: Gould and Newman, 1836).
• William Hurte, A Catechetical Commentay on the New Testament (St. Louis: John Burns, 1889), pp. 502ff.55

Continued.......

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[LittleLambofJesus]

Oooops....double post


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[LittleLambofJesus]

Continuing.........

• A. Immer, Hermeneutics of the New Testament, trans. A. H. Newman (Andover: Draper, 1890).
• Theodor Keim, Rom und das Christenthum.
• Theodor Koppe, History of Jesus of Nazareth, 2nd cd., trans. Arthur Ransom (London: William and Norgate, 1883).
• Max Krenkel, Der Apostel Johannes (Leipzig: 1871).
• Johann Heinrich Kurtz, Church History, 9th cd., trans. John McPherson (3 vols. in 1) (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1888), pp. 41ff.
• Victor Lechler, The Apostolic and Post-Apostolic Times: Their Diversity and Union Life and Doctrine, 3rd cd., vol. 2, trans. A. J. K. Davidson, (Edinburgh: 1886), pp. 166ff.
• John Lightfoot (1658)
• Joseph B. Lightfoot, Biblical Essays (London: 1893).
• Gottfried Christian Friedrich Lücke, Versuch einer vollstandigen Einleitung in die Offenbarung Johannis, (Bonn: 1852).
• Christoph Ernst Luthardt, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Leipzig: 1861).
• James M. Macdonald, The Life and Writings of St. John (London: 1877).
• Frederick Denisen Maurice, Lectures on the Apocalypse, 2nd ed. (London: 1885).
• John David Michaelis, Introduction to the New Testament, vol. 4; and Sacred Books the New Testament.
• Charles Pettit M’Ilvaine, The Evidences of Christianity (Philadelphia: 1861).
• Theodor Mommsen, Roman History, vol. 5.
• John Augustus Wilhelm Neander, The History of the Planting and Training of the Christian Church by the Apostles, trans. J. E. Ryland (Philadelphia: James M. Campbell, 1844), pp. 223ff.
• Sir Isaac Newton, Observation Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (London: 1732).
• Bishop Thomas Newton, Dissertation on the Prophecies (London: 1832).
• A. Niermeyer, Over de echteid der Johanneisch Schriften (Haag: 1852).
• Professor Nehemiah A. Nisbett
• Alfred Plummer (1891).
• Dean Plumptere (1877)
• Edward Hayes Plumtree, A Popular Exposition of the Epistles to the Seven Churches of Asia, 2nd ed. (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1879).
• Ernest Renan, L’Antechrist (Paris: 1871).
• Eduard Wilhelm Eugen Reuss, History of the Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament (Edinburgh: T. &T. Clark, 1884).
• Jean Reville, Reu. d. d. Mondes (Oct., 1863 and Dec., 1873).
• Edward Robinson, Bibliotheca Sacra, vol. 3 (1843), pp. 532ff.
• J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (1878).
• Salmon, G. Introduction to the New Testament.
• Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 3rd cd., vol. 1: Apostolic Christianity (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1910] 1950), p. 834.
• Johann Friedrich Schleusner.
• J. H. Scholten, de Apostel Johannis in Klein Azie (Leiden: 1871).
• Albert Schwegler, Da Nachapostol Zeitalter (1846).
• Henry C. Sheldon, The Early Church, vol. 1 of History of the Christian Church (New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1894), pp. 112ff.
• William Henry Simcox, The Revelation of St. John Divine. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1893).
• Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, Sermons and Essays on the Apostolic Age (3rd ed: Oxford and London: 1874), pp. 234ff.
• J.A. Stephenson (1838)
• Rudolf Ewald Stier (1869).
• Augustus H. Strong, Systematic Theology (Old Tappan: 1907, p. 1010).
• Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse, 2 vols. (Andover: 1845).
• Swegler.
• Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics, p. 467.
• Thiersch, Die Kirche im apostolischm Zeitalter.
• Friedrich August Gottreu Tholuck, Commentary on the Gospel of John (1827).
• Tillich, Introduction to the New Testament.
• Gustav Volkmar, Conmentur zur 0fienbarung (Zurich: 1862).
• Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Book of Revelation (Nashville: by the author, 1966) .
• Israel P Warren (1878)
• Bernhard Weiss, Die Johannes-Apokalypse. Textkritische Untersuchungen und Textherstellung (Leipsig, 1891).
• Brooke Foss Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John (Grand Rapids: 1882).
• J. J. Wetstein, New Testament Graecum, vol. 2 (Amsterdam: 1752).
• Karl Wieseler, Zur Auslegung und Kritik der Apok. Literatur (Gottingen: 1839).
• Charles Wordsworth, The New Testament, vol. 2 (London: 1864).
• Robert Young, Commentary on the Book of Revelation (1885)
• C. F. J. Zullig, Die Ofienbamng Johannis erklarten (Stuttgart: 1852).

I just listed around 150 published scholars from the past few hundred years, MOST of whom are NOT preterists, who adhere to the pre 70 AD date for the Revelation.

Now it's your turn.
Show us YOUR list of the Late Daters Greyeagle.... you should be able to present THOUSANDS of them if what you are claiming is true....
Or, maybe YOU are the one who should stop making assertions you can't back up with evidence, as I have.

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[parousia70]

Oooops....double post


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That was my bad.....sorry

 

[JLB777]

Show me a quote from Josephus whereby he writes about seeing Jesus coming on the clouds with power and great glory.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

That was my bad.....sorry

Most of the "scholars" you listed were just writers with opinions.

Most of them believed The book of Revelation was written around 90 AD.


Sorry bro, you couldn't be more wrong.


JLB

 

[Rev20]

Show me a quote from Josephus whereby he writes about seeing Jesus coming on the clouds with power and great glory.
JLB

Does this count? The first is Traill's translation

"What I am about to relate would, I conceive, be deemed a mere fable, had it not been related by eye-witnesses, and attended by calamities commensurate with such portents. Before sunset were seen around the whole country chariots poised in the air, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and investing the cities. [Robert Traill, "The Jewish War of Flavius Josephus Vol II." Houlston and Stoneman, 1851, Chapter VI, p.197]​

And this is the Whiston translation:

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." [Flavius Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, VI.5.3, p.1484]​

That reads a lot like this:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. . . And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." -- Rev 19:11, 14​

It is worth mentioning that Josephus was a Jewish Priest, and wouldn't know Jesus from Adam.


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[Rev20]

Most of the "scholars" you listed were just writers with opinions.

Most of them believed The book of Revelation was written around 90 AD.

Prove it!


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[Rev20]

.

The most remarkable one in the list is Philip Schaff, who after spending most of his life studying, translating and editing the books of the Early Church Fathers, changed his mind about a late date for the Revelation and adopted an early date:

"On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." [Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church Volume I." Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1907, Preface to the Revised Edition, p.vi]​

Also found in:
[Philip Schaff, "History of the Christian Church, Volume I: Apostolic Christianity. A.D. 1-100." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, Pref to Rev Ed, p.2]​

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[Interplanner]

I don't think BW even knew who Schaff was; he didn't seem to know Lattourrette. But a few folks here think he is very informed, with his prize book, etc.

 

[interpreter]

All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or96 AD. Some of the Asian churches that it's addressed to didn't exist in 70 AD.

 

[Rev20]

All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or96 AD. Some of the Asian churches that it's addressed to didn't exist in 70 AD.

Where did you get that information? I have read that all seven existed in the AD60's.

It is written in several commentaries that before the 60 (or 61) earthquake, there were nine churches; but three were destroyed: Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea. Only Laodicea was rebuilt (supposedly without Roman assistance.)

Therefore, it appears that for a period of several years in the 60's, there were exactly seven churches in Asia, and they had the exact names mentioned in the Revelation.


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[Dave Watchman]

This was taken from another thread and I thought it would be appropriate here......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7831421/

Jay E. Adams, The Time Is at Hand (Philipsburg: 1966).
D.E. Aune, Revelation 1—5 (WBC, 52A; Nashville: 1997) ; Revelation 6—16 (WBC, 52B; Nashville: 1998a) ; Revelation 17—22 (WBC, 52C; Nashville: 1998b).
Greg L. Bahnsen, Victory in Jesus: The Bright Hope of Postmillennialism (1999).
Joseph R. Balyeat, Babylon - The Great City of Revelation (1991).
Arthur Stapylton Barnes, Christianity at Rome in the Apostolic Age (Westport: 1938), pp. 159ff.
R. Bauckham, The Climax of Prophecy: Studies on the Book of Revelation (Edinburgh: 1993).
W. Bauer, W.F. Arndt and F.W. Gingrich, A Greek—English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (1979).
Ulrich R. Beeson, The Revelation (1956 PDF).
Albert A. Bell, Jr., "The Date of John’s Apocalypse. The Evidence of Some Roman Historians Reconsidered," New Testament Studies 25 (1979): 93-102
Charles Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, ed. by T. B. Strong (Oxford: 1909), pp. 30,48.
F.F. Bruce, New Testament History (Garden City: 1969), p.411.
Rudolf Bultmann (1976).
R. Carré, `Othon et Vitellius, deux nouveaux Néron?', in J.-M. Croisille, R. Martin and Y. Perrin (eds.), Neronia V. Néron: histoire et légende (Collection Latomus, 247; Brussels: 1999): 152-81.
David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: 1985); and The Days of Vengeance (Ft. Worth, TX: 1987).
William Newton Clarke, An Outline of Christian Theology (New York: 1903).
Adela Yarbro Collins, The Combat Myth in the Book of Revelation (Harvard Theological Review; Harvard Dissertations in Religion, 9; (Missoula: 1976) ; Crisis and Catharsis: The Power of the Apocalypse (Philadelphia: 1984).
W. Gary Crampton, Biblical Hermeneutics (1986), p. 42.
Berry Stewart Crebs, The Seventh Angel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1938).
Gary DeMar, End Times Fiction ; Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church
George Edmundson, The Church in Rome in the First Century (London: 1913 PDF).
George P. Fisher, The Beginnings of Christianity, with a View to the State of the Roman World at the Birth of Christ (New York: 1916), pp. 534ff.
J. Massyngberde Ford, Revelation. Anchor Bible (Garden City, NY: 1975).
S.J. Friesen, Twice Neokoros: Ephesus, Asia and the Cult of the Flavian Imperial Family (Religions in the Graeco-Roman World, 116; Leiden: 1993) ; Imperial Cults and the Apocalypse of John: Reading Revelation in the Ruins (New York: 2001) ; `Satan's Throne, Imperial Cults and the Social Settings of Revelation', JSNT 27 (2005): 351-73.
A.J.P. Garrow, Revelation (New Testament Readings; London: 1997).
Kenneth L. Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell, An Exegetical and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition, (1989)
Robert McQueen Grant, A Historical Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Harper & Row, 1963), p. 237.
Samuel G. Green, A Handbook of Church History from the Apostolic Era to the Dawn of the Reformation (London: 1904), p. 64.
I. Head, `Mark as a Roman Document from the Year 69: Testing Martin Hengel's Thesis', JRH 28 (2004): 240-59.
Bernard W. Henderson, The Life and Principate of the Emperor Nero (London: Methuen, 1903).
M. Hengel, Studies in the Gospel of Mark ( Philadelphia: 1985).
David Hill, New Testament Prophecy (Atlanta: John Knox, 1979), pp. 218-219.
B. Kowalski, Die Rezeption des Propheten Ezechiel in der O fenbarung des Johannes (Stuttgarter Biblische Beiträge, 52; Stuttgart: Verlag Katholisches Bibelwerk, 2004).
P. Lampe, From Paul to Valentinus: Christians at Rome in the First Two Centuries (transl. and ed. M. Steinhauser and M.D. Johnson; London: 2003).
Francis Nigel Lee, Revelation and Jerusalem (Brisbane: 1985)
Peter J. Leithart, The Promise of His Appearing (2004 PDF)
J.W. Marshall, Parables of War: Reading John's Jewish Apocalypse (Studies in Christianity and Judaism, 10; Waterloo, Ont.: 2001) ; `Who's on the Throne? Revelation in the Long Year', in R.S. Boustan and A.Y. Reed (eds.), Heavenly Realms and Earthly Realities in Late Antique Religions (Cambridge: 2004): 123-41.
A. D. Momigliano, Cambridge Ancient History (1934).
Charles Herbert Morgan, et. al., Studies in the Apostolic Church (New York: 1902), pp. 210ff.
C. F. D. Moule, The Birth of the New Testament, 3rd ed. (New York: 1982), p. 174.56
Robert L. Pierce, The Rapture Cult (Signal Mtn., TN: 1986)
T. Randell, "Revelation" in H. D. M. Spence &Joseph S. Exell, eds., The Pulpit Cornmentary, vol. 22 (Grand Rapids: 1950).
James J. L. Ratton, The Apocalypse of St. John (London: 1912).
J. W. Roberts, The Revelation to John (Austin, TX: Sweet, 1974).
John A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia: 1976).
G. Rojas-Flores, `The Book of Revelation and the First Years of Nero's Reign ', Bib 85 (2004): 375-92.
C. Rowland, The Open Heaven: A Study of Apocalyptic in Judaism and Early Christianity (New York: 1982).
W. Sanday (1908). Introduction to the New Testament.
J. J. Scott, The Apocalypse, or Revelation of S. John the Divine (London: 1909).
Edward Gordon Selwyn, The Christian Prophets and the Apocalypse (Cambridge: 1900); and The Authorship of the Apocalypse (1900).
T.B. Slater, `Dating the Apocalypse to John', Bib 84 (2003): 252-58.
D. Moody Smith, "A Review of John A. T. Robinson’s Redating the New Testament," Duke Diviniep School Review 42 (1977): 193-205.
A.G. Soeting, Auditieve aspecten van het boek Openbaring van Johannes (PhD thesis, University of Amsterdam; 2001).
Charles Cutler Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, (ch. 5); and The Apocalypse of John (New Haven: Yale, 1958).
Cornelis Vanderwaal, Hal Lindsey and Biblical Prophecy (Ontario: 1978); and Search the Scriptures, vol. 10 (1979).
J.W. Van Henten, `Nero Redivivus Demolished: The Coherence of the Nero Traditions in the Sibylline Oracles', JSP 21 (2000): 3-17.
G.H. Van Kooten, 'The Year of the Four Emperors and the Revelation of John' (PDF): The `pro-Neronian' Emperors Otho and Vitellius, and the Images and Colossus of Nero in Rome' (Journal for the Study of the New Testament, Vol. 30, No. 2, 205-248 (2007) ; 2005 `"Wrath Will Drip in the Plains of Macedonia": Expectations of Nero's Return in the Egyptian Sibylline Oracles (Book 5), 2 Thessalonians, and Ancient Historical Writings', in A. Hilhorst and G.H. van Kooten (eds.), The Wisdom of Egypt: Jewish, Early Christian, and Gnostic Essays in Honour of Gerard P. Luttikhuizen (Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity, 59;http://www.christianforums.com/style/editor/separator.gif Leiden: E.J. Brill): 177-215.
Arthur Weigall, Nero: Emperor of Rome (London: Thornton Butter-worth, 1930).
Bernhard Weiss, A Commentary on the New Testament, trans. G. H. Schodde (NY: 1906), vol. 4.
A.N. Wilson, Paul: The Mind of the Apostle (1977), p. 11
J. Christian Wilson, `The Problem of the Domitianic Date of Revelation ', NTS 39 (1993): 587-605.

“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

This was taken from another thread and I thought it would be appropriate here......
​

​

“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do"

You should read it sometime.

Tis a shame it was hidden from the Jew's eyes in AD70

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
FALL OF JERUSALEM AD70/ DANIEL, OLIVET DISCOURSE, AND REVELATION

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her
42 saying "that if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon thee and thy Enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to thee and shall be encompassing thee and pressing thee every which place.
44 And shall be leveling thee and thy offspring in thee,
and not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee,
stead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation
[Jeremiah 52:4]

Reve 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "she falls she falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations. [Jeremiah 51:8]



.

 

[Interplanner]

what's the disjointed English verses about?

 

[Rev20]

All of the early Church fathers say the Revelation was written in 95 or96 AD.

I believe if you do your own research, you will find that only one author, Irenaeus, possibly claimed a Domitian date (AD90-95) for the book; and the others simply jumped on his bandwagon. I used the word possibly because Irenaeus seems to be contradicting himself in the same book. I will explain:

The following is a statement by Irenaeus regarding men who actually saw John in the past, and who saw ancient copies of the Revelation (the Apocalypse):

"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number [666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six;" [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book V.30.1, p.558]​

Two paragraphs later, Irenaeus writes this about something that was seen almost in his day:

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." [Roberts & Donaldson, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, "Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol 01: Apostolic Fathers." Charles Scribner's Sons, 1913, Book V.30.3, pp.559-560]​

So, what was seen almost in Irenaeus' day?

1) If it was the vision itself, how could there be ancient copies already written about the vision?

2) If what was seen was one of the ancient copies of the book that Irenaeus referred to two paragraphs earlier, then the dating of the book could not have been in Domitian's reign.

Either way, Irenaeus' statement cannot be considered a legitimate source to date the Revelation.


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[JLB777]

Does this count? The first is Traill's translation

"What I am about to relate would, I conceive, be deemed a mere fable, had it not been related by eye-witnesses, and attended by calamities commensurate with such portents. Before sunset were seen around the whole country chariots poised in the air, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and investing the cities. [Robert Traill, "The Jewish War of Flavius Josephus Vol II." Houlston and Stoneman, 1851, Chapter VI, p.197]​

And this is the Whiston translation:

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." [Flavius Josephus, "Wars of the Jews." Christian Classics Ethereal Library, VI.5.3, p.1484]​

That reads a lot like this:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. . . And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." -- Rev 19:11, 14​

It is worth mentioning that Josephus was a Jewish Priest, and wouldn't know Jesus from Adam.


.

Thank you for making my point.

When Jesus returns EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM!

All the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Every Jew will see jesus and mourn, for they will see Him and know Him as Messiah and Lord.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30


and again -



10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10


You just proved why Preterism is false!



Everyone will see Jesus and know Him!


We have never met Him either!


6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.



Read it for yourself -



10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.




JLB

 

[Rev20]

When Jesus returns EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM!

"Every Eye" according to whom, JLB? Do you understand what John meant by "every eye"? Maybe he only meant every eye inside the walls of Jerusalem in AD70. You don't know what John meant.
.

All the tribes of the earth will mourn.
Every Jew will see jesus and mourn, for they will see Him and know Him as Messiah and Lord.

Is that "Jews in the flesh", or "Jews in the spirit?" Paul said there are no Jews in the flesh, so you must be referring to Jews in the spirit:

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." -- Rom 2:28-29​

Further, only those who believe in Christ can claim descendancy from Abraham:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." -- John 8:39​

Therefore, it sounds like you are saying, "every Christian shall see Jesus and mourn."

Are you certain you are interpreting that correctly? After all, the scripture is loaded with imagery and allegorical language.
.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

Are you absolutely certain that event will occur exactly the way you pretend it will? What does it mean by coming in the clouds of heaven with power? Could that be the same as the Lord coming as the Assyrian army against Egypt in the Old Testament? It seems very similar in language; and there was a remarkably similar event in AD70, when the Lord came as the Roman armies against Jerusalem.
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10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10

That was fulfilled when Jesus was hanging on the cross, as John stated in his gospel. In the next chapter of Zechariah is the prophecy of "smiting the shepherd and the sheep scattering," which was fulfilled shortly after his crucifixion. In the previous chapter is the betrayal of Christ by Judas. The latter chapters of Zechariah are simply a prophecy of the timeline of Christ, from near the end of his ministry when he entered into Jerusalem on a colt, until the destruction of those who killed him and their seat of power.

It certainly appears you are teaching false doctrine, JLB.


.

 

[Interplanner]

The lack of use of the last chapters of Zech is about the strongest case I know of against how futurism bypasses the NT. I've met many people who don't know that the crucifixion narrative includes many, many lines from those last chapters.