Praying?

[JohnCR]

This is an honest question for Christians out there. I understand that many of you believe that you build a relationship with God through praying. That makes some sense to me if you are praying for yourself. However, I don't understand why people pray for others or if Christians believe this will change the outcome. Is God more likely to help a friend with cancer if more people pray for him? If no one prays for him, then do you believe God will be less willing to help?

This would help a great deal in better understanding Christians.

 

[ebia]

Praying isn't about getting God to do what I want, but about me participating God's Kingdom work.

 

[JohnCR]

Praying isn't about getting God to do what I want, but about me participating God's Kingdom work.

But what does that mean?

 

[drich0150]

Prayer as described in scripture was not intended to be a well structured wishing program. Prayer was originally modeled as a way for the believer to express love and gratitude toward God. The petitioning of God was apart of prayer, but only in so far as to help the believer to focus on God's will being done, and not as a way to have a wish granted. Let's look at how prayer was to be structured:

Luke 11:

1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."
2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,[a]
hallowed be your name,
(Here we recognize God and the holy authority He posses)
your kingdom come. Your will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.
(In this verse we ask first and fore mostly that God will takes presidents in our lives.)
3Give us each day our daily bread.
(We are to ask for the day, and the day's provisions.)
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.[c]
(We are to remind ourselves that our sins find forgiveness only when we forgive others.)
And lead us not into temptation.[d]' "
(We ask God to keep us from evil.)

You see there isn't much room for structured wishing in actual prayer. The asking we are told to do is limited by our desire that God's will takes president over our own.
Over time, At some point one ceases to ask for things, and merely asks for contentment in whatever God will may be for his life.

Prayer is a vessel that can help us change from self centered self focused people to a God centered people. That said, there is nothing wrong with asking God to help so and so or to help you with.. Even the most God centered person will ask for intercession at some point or another, but again the true intent of prayer is not to effect God's decisions, but to force accountability on our part and to help us change/Grow in the faith.

 

[JohnCR]

*precedent* Sorry, that was driving me nuts.

It seems to me that you are saying these prayer groups don't actually help the individuals they are praying for. So, why do Christians act like they are giving you a gift if they pray for you or for someone you love? Has the true meaning of prayer been lost in the fray or misconstrued by organized religion? And if prayer is only helping the emotional/spiritual needs of the person or group praying, then is it not at least somewhat selfish? I would think they would at least tend to the spiritual needs of the people in pain instead of praying for them from afar. Not to say this doesn't sometimes happen, but I'm referring more to these prayer groups that some churches have.

 

[Mobiosity]

*precedent* Sorry, that was driving me nuts.

It seems to me that you are saying these prayer groups don't actually help the individuals they are praying for. So, why do Christians act like they are giving you a gift if they pray for you or for someone you love? Has the true meaning of prayer been lost in the fray or misconstrued by organized religion? And if prayer is only helping the emotional/spiritual needs of the person or group praying, then is it not at least somewhat selfish? I would think they would at least tend to the spiritual needs of the people in pain instead of praying for them from afar. Not to say this doesn't sometimes happen, but I'm referring more to these prayer groups that some churches have.

Philippians 4:6NIV "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God."
God wants us to tell Him what we want. This doesn't mean that He's going to give us everything we ask for. We pray for others so that they'll be helped. I have had people pray for me and had hands laid on me in prayer. I felt a lift in my spirit. I've laid hands on others in prayer and felt Holy Spirit moving.

 

[JohnCR]

Philippians 4:6NIV "Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God."
God wants us to tell Him what we want. This doesn't mean that He's going to give us everything we ask for. We pray for others so that they'll be helped. I have had people pray for me and had hands laid on me in prayer. I felt a lift in my spirit. I've laid hands on others in prayer and felt Holy Spirit moving.

God is omniscient, so he should know what we want and what people need. To suggest that praying makes it more likely people will be helped, also suggests that God is less likely to help those unfortunate enough to not have people praying for them. Are you saying that more prayers = more help? Remember, I'm not talking about praying for oneself, because it could be argued that more prayer would develop a deeper relationship with God. I'm talking about praying for someone from afar. Is God less likely to help a man in a coma who has no one praying for him than he is my sick grandmother who has her whole church praying for her? (my grandmother is fine, just an example)

I'm hearing two different responses right now. Some seem to say that prayer only develops a relationship with God and fulfills the spiritual needs of those praying, and others seem to say that praying tells God what we want/need so he might choose to intervene.

 

[Mobiosity]

God is omniscient, so he should know what we want and what people need. To suggest that praying makes it more likely people will be helped, also suggests that God is less likely to help those unfortunate enough to not have people praying for them. Are you saying that more prayers = more help? Remember, I'm not talking about praying for oneself, because it could be argued that more prayer would develop a deeper relationship with God. I'm talking about praying for someone from afar. Is God less likely to help a man in a coma who has no one praying for him than he is my sick grandmother who has her whole church praying for her? (my grandmother is fine, just an example)

I'm hearing two different responses right now. Some seem to say that prayer only develops a relationship with God and fulfills the spiritual needs of those praying, and others seem to say that praying tells God what we want/need so he might choose to intervene.

Prayer definitely develops a deeper relationship with God and fills our spiritual need for connection with Him
We don't know how God will help. Yes, I do believe that God is more likely to help someone who has been or is being prayed for. However, the help may be healing, it may be taking them home to heaven. It may be removing a support that is keeping us from developing in the way He wants us to develop. We have no idea what God's will is. One of the purposes of prayer is to align our will with God's will. Another purpose of prayer is to let God know what we want. God is omniscient and knows what we want and need, it may be that it is His choice to wait until we ask Him before giving us what we want. If what we want is not good for us His answer is going to be no.

 

[Lukaris]

Prayer is our faith in action and we are saved by our faith in Jesus Christ. This is a faith that is to be expressed in good works (see Ephesians 2:8-10) according to our Lord's commands to love God entirely and our neighbor as ourself (see Mark 12:28-34). This is surrendering our wills to the will of God and the Holy Spirit will guide us in our conscience and action (see John 15:26). The Lord's prayer (Matthew 6:9-13) tells us to pray and to act upon prayer in living our faith. Of course, this is most challenging in a fallen world.

 

[JohnCR]

God is omniscient and knows what we want and need, it may be that it is His choice to wait until we ask Him before giving us what we want.

Yes, but I'm referring to the act of praying for the well-being of others. Do you assert that he will ignore those who aren't lucky enough to have a group of people praying for them?

 

[drich0150]

*precedent* Sorry, that was driving me nuts.

It seems to me that you are saying these prayer groups don't actually help the individuals they are praying for. So, why do Christians act like they are giving you a gift if they pray for you or for someone you love? Has the true meaning of prayer been lost in the fray or misconstrued by organized religion? And if prayer is only helping the emotional/spiritual needs of the person or group praying, then is it not at least somewhat selfish? I would think they would at least tend to the spiritual needs of the people in pain instead of praying for them from afar. Not to say this doesn't sometimes happen, but I'm referring more to these prayer groups that some churches have.

I didn't say prayer doesn't help. My point was to explain the difference between, It's original intent, and what it has become. There is a balance found in the truest intent of prayer, and the pop christian version of it that you seem to either avoiding intentionally, or simply do not comprehend.

Either way know there isn't going to be an absolute definitive answer as to how prayer always works, everytime. That is left to the one who answers prayer.

As far prayer groups in general are concerned, the people in them are trying to better connect with God. Generally it is to the one who expends the effort, that finds what He seeks. So why should the one who makes no effort be rewarded? Do you think simply because he is being prayed for, he deserves a stronger relationship with God?

Now speaking of those who typically sell or award their prayer as gifts, It could be said that they have missed the whole point of prayer. So do the people who buy those prayers or seek the gift of prayer from such a group.

 

[JohnCR]

I didn't say prayer doesn't help. My point was to explain the difference between, It's original intent, and what it has become. There is a balance found in the truest intent of prayer, and the pop christian version of it that you seem to either avoiding intentionally, or simply do not comprehend.

Either way know there isn't going to be an absolute definitive answer as to how prayer always works, everytime. That is left to the one who answers prayer.

As far prayer groups in general are concerned, the people in them are trying to better connect with God. Generally it is to the one who expends the effort, that finds what He seeks. So why should the one who makes no effort be rewarded? Do you think simply because he is being prayed for, he deserves a stronger relationship with God?

Now speaking of those who typically sell or award their prayer as gifts, It could be said that they have missed the whole point of prayer. So do the people who buy those prayers or seek the gift of prayer from such a group.

My only point is that it doesn't make sense for those being prayed for to receive special treatment over those who don't have anyone praying for them. I think you are saying basically the same thing. So, when someone says "I'll pray for you," should I mention that they can't change God's plans?

I'm just trying to understand Christians and their beliefs behind the power of prayer.

 

[drich0150]

So, when someone says "I'll pray for you," should I mention that they can't change God's plans?

It depends on the motivations for responding in the first place. If your looking to rebuke someone for doing what it is they think will help you or situation then the Whole "Changing God's plan" speech will do. Otherwise understand, that just because the original model for prayer does not include a wishing ceremony, it doesn't mean God doesnot consider that specific prayer request. Prayers are generally answered in a way that supports spiritual growth. Even if it is at the cost of one's physical health. At the same time if it benefits a person's spiritual life to physically get better then God generally will positively answer that prayer as well.

The Ultimate goal is spiritual growth no matter the physical cost or benefit. The tricky part for us is discerning how God always sees growth or benefit, so most of the time we pray in favor of what we think is the best out come according to our own interest.

If you wish to truly benefit from prayer as it was originally intended, The next time someone says they are praying for you, say: "Don't pray for my situation, pray that my heart receives the proper conditioning in this hardship so that i may one day say, What ever my lot, It is well with My soul. Help me learn to want God's ultimate will for my life, and not what i think I want. Even if it means my life."

That is a hard prayer to pray, and mean it. But, if you learn to pray for God's will in your life then no matter what you pray for you will always get what you want.

 

[JohnCR]

It depends on the motivations for responding in the first place. If your looking to rebuke someone for doing what it is they think will help you or situation then the Whole "Changing God's plan" speech will do. Otherwise understand, that just because the original model for prayer does not include a wishing ceremony, it doesn't mean God doesnot consider that specific prayer request. Prayers are generally answered in a way that supports spiritual growth. Even if it is at the cost of one's physical health. At the same time if it benefits a person's spiritual life to physically get better then God generally will positively answer that prayer as well.

The Ultimate goal is spiritual growth no matter the physical cost or benefit. The tricky part for us is discerning how God always sees growth or benefit, so most of the time we pray in favor of what we think is the best out come according to our own interest.

If you wish to truly benefit from prayer as it was originally intended, The next time someone says they are praying for you, say: "Don't pray for my situation, pray that my heart receives the proper conditioning in this hardship so that i may one day say, What ever my lot, It is well with My soul. Help me learn to want God's ultimate will for my life, and not what i think I want. Even if it means my life."

That is a hard prayer to pray, and mean it. But, if you learn to pray for God's will in your life then no matter what you pray for you will always get what you want.

I might water that down since I don't believe in God

I appreciate the response though.

 

[youreign]

Why don't you believe in God? Does it have something to do with a prayer not being answered the way you wanted it to be answered?

 

[JohnCR]

Why don't you believe in God? Does it have something to do with a prayer not being answered the way you wanted it to be answered?

No, it has nothing to do with that. I was honestly just curious about that aspect of Christianity because it never really made sense to me. I appreciate all of the responses.

I wasn't really looking to get into a debate on here because I wanted to respect the wishes of the forum moderators. However, if you really want to know why I don't believe in God, then you are welcome to PM me. Like I said, I didn't come here to pick any sort of fight, so I'll do my best to be respectful if you do choose to continue this conversation in a PM.

 

[Mobiosity]

Yes, but I'm referring to the act of praying for the well-being of others. Do you assert that he will ignore those who aren't lucky enough to have a group of people praying for them?

No, I don't believe He'll ignore the unbeliever. I think He'll know they are there. Having folks praying for you isn't luck, it is in response to a request from you or a loved one. God isn't fair, He's righteous.

 

[Spoonbill]

I'd rather actually help someone than sit in a circle with my eyes closed accomplishing nothing.

 

[Mobiosity]

I'd rather actually help someone than sit in a circle with my eyes closed accomplishing nothing.

Well then, by all means do so.

 

[Lukaris]

I'd rather actually help someone than sit in a circle with my eyes closed accomplishing nothing.

Of course, works are required but for the Christian these must be guided by faith (see Luke 17:5-10) & we can claim no righteousness from these works. For the agnostic or atheist the guiding principle is one's reasoning & notions of right & wrong but we would still see these as God given & the loss of these notions as falling further into sin. This is why we as Christians know that we must pray & act according to God's will and commands & not trust our faulty reasoning tainted by sin. Surely we use reason but God must come first and from there we proceed.