Praying to Saints

[ZiSunka]

The saint does not answer prayers.

Then why all those ads in the classified section of the newspaper that say, "Thank you Saint Jude, for prayers answered and favors given"?

 

[isshinwhat]

About the whole, "If it wasn't Mary it would have been someone else. God didn't need Mary, he could have made it happen," argument.

God humbled himself through the Incarnation. God chose to allow us to work with Him. He didn't tell Mary she would conceive, he asked her if she were willing. God is not in the business of asking the wrong people to do things, and I believe He prepared her beforehand for her mission. For arguments sake, if it hadn't been Mary, some other woman would still have consented/cooperated. Through humbling Himself, even to the point of death at our hands, He showed His glory. The fact that God uses the cooperation of man in no way infringes upon His soverignty, it displays it beautifully. Did God "need" Mary's help? No. Did God "need" to humble himself? No. Did God "need" to create us? No. But he did in every instance because of love. Because the way He chose to operate, he needed a woman to cooperate with His plan, and I believe He prepared Mary for it beautifully.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[ZiSunka]

But the glory goes to God, not to Mary. As you said, "He prepared her beautifully."

 

[isshinwhat]

As I said, I don't believe that anyone is righteous by their own actions, before or after dying.

Nor do I, but I do believe they have been fully sanctified, whereas I have not.

Neal

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by VOW
The whole selection of Mary as the Mother of Jesus is based upon HER free will choice, her personal decision to accept the honor.

Please share the scripture that implies that her acquiescence to God's Will is what "allowed" God to use her.

Without her ability to utilize free-will, then essentially you say that she was coerced. Her COOPERATION was needed.

Where?  Where does it say this anywhere in the Bible?  

Was Gabriel SHOPPING for a willing womb?

Did Gabriel ask her to comply with God's Will?

God bless.

 

[isshinwhat]

But the glory goes to God, not to Mary. As you said, "He prepared her beautifully."

Amen.

Then why all those ads in the classified section of the newspaper that say, "Thank you Saint Jude, for prayers answered and favors given"?

First, prayer does not entail worship. It means only to ask. One's prayer to St. Jude would be a request that he pray to God. The quote you provided assumes he has done so, and is in thanks for that. Would you have a problem if I came up to you and said, "lambslove, will you do me a favor and pray for me?"

Neal

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
He didn't tell Mary she would conceive, he asked her if she were willing.

Where?!!  This is what I read:

Luke 1:30-35
Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.<SUP>&nbsp; </SUP>And behold,&nbsp;YOU WILL&nbsp;conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and&nbsp;SHALL CALL&nbsp;His name Jesus."&nbsp;&nbsp;Then, again, "The Holy Spirit WILL COME UPON YOU, and the power of the Highest WILL OVERSHADOW YOU; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Where is he asking her permission or willingness?<SUP>&nbsp;</SUP>

So first you say:

Did God "need" Mary's help? No.

Then you say:

Because the way He chose to operate, he needed a woman to cooperate with His plan, and I believe He prepared Mary for it beautifully.

So, did God&nbsp;use&nbsp;Mary because He&nbsp;"needed"&nbsp;Mary or did He do it that way because it was His plan?

God bless.

 

[isshinwhat]

"Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word."

No offense, but I do not believe God would just tell some teenager He was going to make her pregnant without her consent. I believe the above quote to be her consent to the statment of God's will by the Archangel Gabriel.

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

So first you say:

Context. I was saying that God doesn't "need" to do anything He does, strictly speaking.

Neal

 

[ZiSunka]

First, prayer does not entail worship. It means only to ask. One's prayer to St. Jude would be a request that he pray to God.

Then why thank Jude for answered prayers. If you asked me to pray for you, you might thank for praying, but you wouldn't thank me for answering your prayers!

In the prayer that goes with the newspaper ads, there is no mention of St Jude praying for you. Here is the text of that prayer:

"O most holy apostle, St. Jude, faithful servant and friend of Jesus, the church honors and invokes you universally, as the patron of hopeless cases, of things almost despaired of. Pray for me, I am so helpless and alone.

Make use, I implore you, of that particular privilege given to you, to bring visible and speedy help where help is almost despaired of. Come to my assistance in this great need that I may receive the consolation and help of heaven in all my necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly (state your request) and that I may praise God with you and all the elect forever.

I promise, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, to always honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to you.

Amen. "

This prayer asks Jude to fix the problem directly. "Come to my assistance," "gratefuly encourage devotion to you." Those are direct requests for intervention, with the promise of devotion is the request is granted.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
No offense, but I do not believe God would just tell some teenager He was going to make her pregnant without her consent. I believe the above quote to be her consent to the statment of God's will by the Archangel Gabriel.

Neal

So you are actually saying that if Mary had said, "No.&nbsp; I don't want to do this" God would have been like, "Man!!&nbsp; I was so close.&nbsp; Who can I use now?"&nbsp; The thing is, you guys believe Mary was withheld from blemish for the purpose of being the vessel for the birth of the Savior.&nbsp; You're saying that God invests so much in one woman, so much so as to make her free from sin her entire life and then just says, "Okay Mary, now it's up to you?"&nbsp; What if she said no?&nbsp; Were there a bunch of other sin-free virgins running around?

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Context. I was saying that God doesn't "need" to do anything He does, strictly speaking.

Neal

I don't see your point.&nbsp; Did God "need" a fallen creation to save them?&nbsp; Of course.&nbsp; If we weren't fallen we wouldn't have needed to be saved.&nbsp; Does that mean we deserve some kind of glory because we are subject to His Will?&nbsp; Of course not.&nbsp; Sorry bro, I don't think I took it out of context.

God bless.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
No offense, but I do not believe God would just tell some teenager He was going to make her pregnant without her consent. I believe the above quote to be her consent to the statment of God's will by the Archangel Gabriel.

Neal

No offense but I don't think Mary's statement "let it be to me according to your Word" was the hinge-point for the execution of God's Will.

God bless.

 

[isshinwhat]

Then why thank Jude for answered prayers. If you asked me to pray for you, you might thank for praying, but you wouldn't thank me for answering your prayers!

Lambslove.... St. Jude did answer your prayer to him... he prayed. Have you ever read Shakespeare? "Pray thee tell me!" My asking you to pray for me is a prayer to you. I am asking you, and that is all pray means in this instance.

In the prayer that goes with the newspaper ads, there is no mention of St Jude praying for you.

Look at the first three words of the last sentence of the first paragraph, "Pray for me."

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Chloe]

Originally posted by VOW
To Chloe:



No, but the Bible tells us to pray for ONE ANOTHER.

To put it another way, the Bible doesn't tell us NOT to ask "dead saints" to pray for you!

So because the Bible doesn't say NOT TO, then we are to ask dead saints to pray for us?&nbsp; So we are to assume that omission is permission?&nbsp; If the Bible does not&nbsp;mention&nbsp;prayer to saints then why do it?&nbsp; In fact in the OT, trying to contact with those who had died was very clearly forbidden.&nbsp;

We are not saying that everyone MUST ask the saints to pray for them. Our point is this: there is nothing wrong with someone asking a saint to pray with them to God; it is simply asking another person to pray for you, as you would ask a friend, a relative, or your pastor.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

There is a big difference in asking someone who is alive on this earth to pray for you and praying to or asking someone who is dead and in the presence of God to pray for you.&nbsp; Again, since they are with God, in His very presence, why would they need to pray?&nbsp;

 

[isshinwhat]

Sorry bro, I don't think I took it out of context.

You did, because I know what I meant. God did not need to even create us. God did not need to save us. He needs absolutely nothing. He did so only out of love. To save us, He could have just said, " You are saved!" But he didn't. It was within His power to do so, but He chose not to.

Neal

 

[ZiSunka]

I just went to the St Jude prayer website, where you can "publish" your prayer to saint Jude. And guess what? You have to PAY to get St Jude to hear your prayer!

Upon clicking the "submit prayer" button, it takes you to a page where you must enter your credit card info to get your prayer to st jude! If you don't input your card info, it tells you that it cannot transmitt your prayer!

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Chloe
So because the Bible doesn't say NOT TO, then we are to ask dead saints to pray for us?&nbsp; So we are to assume that omission is permission?&nbsp; If the Bible does not&nbsp;mention&nbsp;prayer to saints then why do it?&nbsp; In fact in the OT, trying to contact with those who had died was very clearly forbidden.

I was kinda wondering the same thing myself Chloe. &nbsp;&nbsp;

God bless.

 

[isshinwhat]

Again, since they are with God, in His very presence, why would they need to pray?

Here you go, Chloe. I asnwered you a while back, but the thread has moved on several pages now.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Here you go, Chloe. I asnwered you a while back, but the thread has moved on several pages now.

God Bless,

Neal

Was there supposed to be a link your post Neal?