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Praying to Saints

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Angelo, Sep 3, 2002.

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  1. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    dead saints

    To a Catholic, this is an oxymoron. That is why we ask them for their prayers.

    Neal
     
  2. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    My mom is dead. Can I pray to her? :D

    Satan has access to God. Is it okay to pray to him? :D
     
  3. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Neal, could you address post #51?

    Thanks bro,

    God bless.
     
  4. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
  5. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    from post #51

    God, through his foreknowledge, knew she would say yes. That, however, did not take away from her free will in answering.

    Neal

    P.S. I'll be back on later, I was supposed to meet my fiancee 45 mninutes ago. Pray for me! :)
     
  6. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I don't know if this link points to where you mean for it to.  If so, I don't get the answer.  First off, I don't have a "Maccabees" book in my Bible.  Second, I assume your referring to "the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."  If that is that what you're referring to I don't see how that addresses my post.

    Here it is again in case we're not talking about the same thing:

    So you are actually saying that if Mary had said, "No.  I don't want to do this" God would have been like, "Man!!  I was so close.  Who can I use now?"  The thing is, you guys believe Mary was withheld from blemish for the purpose of being the vessel for the birth of the Savior.  You're saying that God invests so much in one woman, so much so as to make her free from sin her entire life and then just says, "Okay Mary, now it's up to you?"  What if she said no?  Were there a bunch of other sin-free virgins running around?


    Thanks,

    Don
     
  7. Chloe

    Chloe The whole Bible is the Whole Word of God

    129
    +0
     

    But notice it is the prayers of the saints, it is not inferring that they are the prayers of saints that are in heaven.  It is instead referring to the saints that are living.  As far as Maccabees, it is as far as I am concerned and by many authoritative scholars that 1 or 2 Maccabees was not inspired by God and therefore is not recognized as holding any authority. 

    Do you not believe that all believers who are redeemed are saints?
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    So God's foreknowledge of Mary's answer is why He picked her?  So, God, eternal as He is, did what?  Looked down through time and saw what she would say?  Did He not have any control over what she would say?  Is God then subject to our will?  Who is really sovereign in this instance?  How could God know ahead of time something that is left to our free will?  Did God based His Divine plan on the possible choices of man to achieve His desired end or does the end come about exactly as He had predetermined because He's God and that's what being sovereign means.  Sovereign doesn't mean being able to overcome an obstacle because you can "work around" an event you have no control over.  Sovereign means that God decrees that something will happen a certain way and it does not deviate from that exact decree.

    LOL!  Good luck!  I'll pray for you.  LOL!

    God bless,

    Don
     
  9. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    What the St Jude Novena site says:

    "The St. Jude novena is unique in that traditionally when you pray to St. Jude"

    "Online guestbooks are a starting point in your relationship with St. Jude,"

    "In short, these are the people you should be publishing for and who need your encouragement to turn to St. Jude!"

    What the Bible says:

    "For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus" I Timothy 2:5

    "But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God" John 1:12 (If we are children of God, we don't need a go-between relationship with st jude!) "Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:16

    "they should repent and turn to God, " Acts 26:20 (Why turn to st jude? We are to turn to God to be our help in times of need!)
     
  10. VOW

    VOW Moderator

    +15
    Catholic
    Married
    To lambslove:

    You have received answers from people in this very thread about what "pray to" means. Continuing to dwell upon your personal interpretation of the word is unnecessary. Again, you are not required to "pray" to anyone; and you cannot judge another for asking a "dead saint" to pray for them.

    Further, this remark by you:
    could be construed to be ridicule of another's belief, which is clearly against forum rules.



    To everyone:

    Asking for an explanation is fine, however arguing with the explanation is not. Let's all play nicely.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  11. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Thanks, Don. She handled it well, probably because she overslept her nap. :)

    It was actually for Chloe.

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
  12. Chloe

    Chloe The whole Bible is the Whole Word of God

    129
    +0
    I'm sorry, but it still does not answer my question as to why the saints in heaven would have to pray, considering they could simply speak to God face to face.
     
  13. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian


    What a giant non-answer! What about the idea of encouraging a relationship with st jude? You skipped over that. What about the idea of turning to st jude instead of turning to Christ? No answer? Why nurture a relationship with jude?

    If you took it as ridicule, sorry. I was laughing at the idea of praying to someone simply because they have access to God. I have access to God, would you ever dream of praying to me? Of course not! Nor would I want you to. The idea of praying to jude is as ludicrous. If that is what your faith teaches, then it is a bad teaching.

    I would rather have you be mad at me than for me to allow you to continue an idolatrous relationship with jude. If you conscrue my honest concern for your soul to be riduculing you, so be it.
     
  14. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Then, Chloe, you've got a problem. :) The twenty-four elders are in Heaven at the foot of the Lamb of God. If they are offering the prayers of the saints on earth to the Lamb from their bowls, then you have saints in Heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth to Christ. Sounds very Catholic to me. ;)

    It was in the first Christian Canon drawn up in the mid 380's, and was in the Septuagint for hundreds of years before that, so I'll keep it in my Bible as authoritative. At the very least, it shows that the basis for the Catholic thought was accepted within Judaism long before Christ was born, and therefore wasn't a "new invention of the Pagan Roman Church after Constantine," as some assert.

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
  15. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    He is omniscient.

    He prepared her through the gift of the Immaculate Conception. I would say that was an assertion of control, but it still left her with free will.

    Who says our free will was not part of the original decree?

    Neal
     
  16. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Ooops!
     
  17. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    Any time you ask someone anything, you are praying to them. Our culture uses the term pray mostly in reference to closing your eyes and petitioning God for something, but that is not the original sense of the word, nor is it how Catholics use the term in regards to Saints. Pray=Ask, nothing more.

    Neal
     
  18. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I feel silly even saying this because the two (free will and God's sovereign decree) seem at odds with each other, but, I'll try again.  If your will was decreed and is subject to God's authority do you really insist that it is still "free."  We are talking about "free" right?  As in "free from external influence?"  If your will is influenced by anything separate from yourself, it's not free.  Now God, His Will is as close to free as it gets.  He is not, however, free to do some things.  Therefore, His Will isn't even completely free.

    Now, if you're talking about our ability to make certain choices, then I would say we are most definitely capable of that.  However, those choices are limited by so many things (which I'll name if you so desire) that the concept of our will not be subject to outside influence is utterly incongrous.

    God bless.
     
  19. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    pray
    v. prayed, pray·ing, prays

    v. intr.

    1. To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.

    2. To make a fervent request or entreaty.

    v. tr.
    1. To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
    2. To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
    3. To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
    4. To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [Middle English preien, from Old French preier, from Latin precr, from prec, pl. of *prex, prayer. See prek- in Indo-European Roots.]

    Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
    Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
     
  20. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    I use free will with the understanding that our nature is limited. So how is "as free as our nature will allow," for my definition of free will.

    But I cannot agree that God's will is not free.

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
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