Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

Traveling teacher said:

So they woudnt make idols of dead saints????

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Who is dead? I'd be very careful going there- lest you call God a liar. Also, nobody is making idols of them. This is called bearing false witness. Here are some scriptures wherein we are told that God is the God of the living and not the dead. It is not metaphorical- it is literal.

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

JayW said:

I have read the deuterocanonical texts, including the passage you quoted. What is conspicuously missing from 2 Maccabees is any mention of whether or not their actions yielded any results or if such actions were pleasing to the Lord. We need to understand the difference between descriptive and prescriptive. The fact that nowhere does God command anyone to do that tells us the account from 2 Maccabees, assuming it’s accurate, is descriptive.

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How do you determine what is scripture and how to interpret it? It seems as if that is very subjective and oddly all over the place for non-denom types.

seashale76 said:

How do you determine what is scripture and how to interpret it? It seems as if that is very subjective and oddly all over the place for non-denom types.

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Could you please show me where in 2 Maccabees there is any mention of whether or not their actions yielded any results or that such actions were pleasing to the Lord? Would you also please show me anywhere in scripture where God commands anyone to do what is being done in 2 Maccabees 12:42-45?

JayW said:

Could you please show me where in 2 Maccabees there is any mention of whether or not their actions yielded any results or that such actions were pleasing to the Lord? Would you also please show me anywhere in scripture where God commands anyone to do what is being done in 2 Maccabees 12:42-45?

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Are you not going to answer the questions I asked of you? I'll tell you what. I go by what the Church says- the same Church that confirmed the scriptures (even the ones you reject because they are inconvenient to you). We are to pray for the dead. In a previous post- I showed not only this example from the OT- but one from the NT. It is Christ's Church (guided in all things by the Holy Spirit) which interprets scripture. Scripture does not interpret itself, nor does it contain everything in the faith. The purpose of the scriptures is to reveal God's purpose for man via the person of Christ. The Old Testament points to Christ with types and anti-types of Christ. All scripture is for the edification of Christ's Church.

seashale76 said:

I disagree that people should stop reading their bibles. God can and does use the scriptures to draw people to Himself. It was actually reading the scriptures that started to cause me to question many of the doctrines with which I was raised. Many don't know better- because this very American Christianity is all they have ever known. They literally cannot conceive of another way. I've often found Evangelical types will take scriptures literally that are not and will make other scriptures metaphorical that are literal. It's like, in their effort to distance themselves from anything that seems too liturgical and historical (which they are indoctrinated to be biased against), they throw the baby out with the bathwater and attempt to reinvent the wheel, to their detriment. God can overcome this. Stopping the reading of the scriptures is not the answer.

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Yeah, all those terrible Evangelical types.

seashale76 said:

Are you not going to answer the questions I asked of you?

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I'm not intending to be rude, but your questions had nothing to do with the post of mine you quoted. If you'd like to discuss what I posted -- or better yet, refute it -- I welcome the exchange. But I'm less than inclined to follow your pivot down a rabbit hole.

amariselle said:

Yeah, all those terrible Evangelical types.

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I was raised in it- so I try to recognize what's good about it- though I do think there are many errors with their beliefs. The ignoring of certain scriptures and/or flip flopping the metaphorical and the literal are some of the biggest issues I've noticed.

JayW said:

I'm not intending to be rude, but your questions had nothing to do with the post of mine you quoted. If you'd like to discuss what I posted -- or better yet, refute it -- I welcome the exchange. But I'm less than inclined to follow your pivot down a rabbit hole.

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On the contrary, my questions have everything to do with the core issue at hand.

amariselle said:

Seriously?!

Do you know how many people have died so that we can have the blessing and the privilege to read God's inspired word? Do you know how many people, even today, would give everything just to be able to do so?

Do you know how desperately the world needs to hear about the hope of salvation in Christ contained in the pages of the Bible? And yet you would say something as ugly and horrendous as that. Despicable.

Romans 10

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No I don't know, how many people have died? So you admit if someone is able to censure your bible your Christianity goes extinct? Your entire faith is a book, interpreted as you please. So experiences of the whole, miracles and signs can't and don't happen apart from the book and the individual reading it. If the world needs to hear of this hope of salvation as found in the KJV , how come protestants can't agree with each other on anything it says? How come the "bible only" folk are at each other's throats because the bible tells them so?

First off your bible is incomplete as it's missing several books. Secondly your bible has been mistranslated by your heroes, thirdly each generations makes up what they want to believe about it by design. You know they have the "holy Spirit within" and each contradictory conclusion are all correct. Fourthly Protestantism would vanish if read in its original language thats why your teachers are terrified of reading it in the original language.

seashale76 said:

On the contrary, my questions have everything to do with the core issue at hand.

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Out of Christian love, I'll make you a deal. You answer my questions (which actually have something to do with the post of mine you quoted) and then I'll answer your questions in post #283.

Ready, go.....

seashale76 said:

I was raised in it- so I try to recognize what's good about it- though I do think there are many errors with their beliefs. The ignoring of certain scriptures and/or flip flopping the metaphorical and the literal are some of the biggest issues I've noticed.

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Everyone has errors. Everyone takes verses out of context. We can all learn to read and study Scripture more carefully.

I include myself in that as well.

JayW said:

Out of Christian love, I'll make you a deal. You answer my questions (which actually have something to do with the post of mine you quoted) and then I'll answer your questions in post #283.

Ready, go.....

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I did answer your question. The Church interprets the scriptures and I go with what the Church says.

buzuxi02 said:

No I don't know, how many people have died?

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Really? You haven't heard or read anything about Christian martyrs? I humbly suggest you do some research into this. Perhaps you'll learn to view the Bible differently once you realize more fully the very real spiritual battle we are in.

buzuxi02 said:

So you admit if someone is able to censure your bible your Christianity goes extinct?

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What exactly would you know specifically about God and Jesus Christ our Saviour of it wasn't for the Bible?

buzuxi02 said:

Your entire faith is a book, interpreted as you please.

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Wrong. My "entire faith" is in Jesus Christ. (Who is revealed in the inspired word of God and by the guidance in reading it provided by the Holy Spirit.)

buzuxi02 said:

So experiences of the whole, miracles and signs can't and don't happen apart from the book and the individual reading it.

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How do you know if these "miracles" and "signs" are from God if you have nothing to test them by?

buzuxi02 said:

If the world needs to hear of this hope of salvation as found in the KJV , how come protestants can't agree with each other on anything it says?

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Who said anything about the KJV in particular? I said the Bible, and I'm not KJV only. Actually, I think it's great to use several different versions and sit down, study and compare.

buzuxi02 said:

How come the "bible only" folk are at each other's throats because the bible tells them so?

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Yes, that is a human problem. Hardly a reason to discard the word of God or reading it for yourself.

buzuxi02 said:

First off your bible is incomplete as it's missing several books.

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That's certainly the belief of many, but I don't agree.

buzuxi02 said:

Secondly your bible has been mistranslated by your heroes,

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My "heroes"? I have no "hero" other than Christ Jesus.

buzuxi02 said:

thirdly each generations makes up what they want to believe about it by design.

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It really doesn't matter what people "want to believe about it." The Bible is the inspired word of God, not a man-made collection of ancient literature.

buzuxi02 said:

You know they have the "holy Spirit within" and each contradictory conclusion are all correct.

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The most central and important things in Scripture (the Gospel, for instance) are not open to interpretation.

buzuxi02 said:

Fourthly Protestantism would vanish if read in its original language thats why your teachers are terrified of reading it in the original language.

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I guess you don't understand where "Protestantism" came from and why. Not surprising if you are actually unaware that there have been thousands, if not millions of Christian martyrs throughout the centuries.

I encourage you to do your research. Start perhaps with finding out why there was a "Reformation."

seashale76 said:

I did answer your question. The Church interprets the scriptures and I go with what the Church says.

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What if the Church is wrong?

amariselle said:

Really? You haven't heard or read anything about Christian martyrs? I humbly suggest you do some research into this. Perhaps you'll learn to view the Bible differently once you realize more fully the very real spiritual battle we are in.



What exactly would you know specifically about God and Jesus Christ our Saviour of it wasn't for the Bible?



Wrong. My "entire faith" is in Jesus Christ. (Who is revealed in the inspired word of God and by the guidance in reading it provided by the Holy Spirit.)



How do you know if these "miracles" and "signs" are from God if you have nothing to test them by?



Who said anything about the KJV in particular? I said the Bible, and I'm not KJV only. Actually, I think it's great to use several different versions and sit down, study and compare.



Yes, that is a human problem. Hardly a reason to discard the word of God or reading it for yourself.



That's certainly the belief of many, but I don't agree.



My "heroes"? I have no "hero" other than Christ Jesus.



It really doesn't matter what people "want to believe about it." The Bible is the inspired word of God, not a man-made collection of ancient literature.



The most central and important things in Scripture (the Gospel, for instance) are not open to interpretation.



I guess you don't understand where "Protestantism" came from and why. Not surprising if you are actually unaware that there have been thousands, if not millions of Christian martyrs throughout the centuries.

I encourage you to do your research. Start perhaps with finding out why there was a "Reformation."

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I'm fairly certain he's heard more lives of the saints and martyrs than you have- no offense. It's part and parcel of being an Orthodox Christian. The Reformation doesn't mean much to him- because from an Orthodox Christian perspective (and he doesn't live in the US iirc)- they are schismatics of schismatics.

seashale76 said:

I'm fairly certain he's heard more lives of the saints and martyrs than you have- no offense. It's part and parcel of being an Orthodox Christian. The Reformation doesn't mean much to him- because from an Orthodox Christian perspective (and he doesn't live in the US iirc)- they are schismatics of schismatics.

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I guess you have no idea how much I know about the "saints and martyrs".

But I am aware that the "Reformation" doesn't mean much to a lot of people.

Pretty sad, horrendous actually. I for one will not count as worthless or unimportant the lives of all those thousands who died rather than bow to Church authority.

But, that's another topic I suppose.

amariselle said:

What if the Church is wrong?

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It isn't. However- if all you've got to go on is what you think the Holy Spirit is telling you personally- then you're in trouble. If I had a dollar for every person and their denomination that thought that- I'd be extremely wealthy. Practically everyone that actually studies Church history does not stay heterodox. The good news is that Christ came to establish a Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit in all things. You already believe said Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to give you whatever scriptures you decided to accept- that same Church was guided by the Holy Spirit in how to interpret the scriptures as well.

amariselle said:

Okay, let's see:

1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.

4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.

6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.

9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;

11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.

12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.

13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.

14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.

15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.

17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.

So where exactly does this Psalm say Mary is the "Queen of Heaven"?

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I would say the queen in verse 9 is Mary based on verse 7 being cognate with Hebrews 1:9, and verse 17 being cognate with Luke 1:48.

But the title is de facto anyway. Jesus is the king of heaven and Israel and this was said in conjunction with Mary mothering him (Luke 1:31-33), so Mary, being the Mother of the Lord, is by definition queen. The only ways you can really argue against this is by saying the mother of the king is not queen, or that Mary is not the mother of the king, which she obviously is (Luke 1:43).

amariselle said:

I guess you have no idea how much I know about the "saints and martyrs".

But I am aware that the "Reformation" doesn't mean much to a lot of people.

Pretty sad, horrendous actually. I for one will not count as worthless or unimportant the lives of all those thousands who died rather than bow to Church authority.

But, that's another topic I suppose.

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Nor did you actually know what he knows about them- but it didn't stop you from posting what you did- eh? It doesn't mean much to Orthodox Christians because the Church preserved the faith- and thus never had a Reformation or need of one. I know quite a bit about the Reformation and I know people died. I've read Fox's Book of Martyrs. I also know that once the Protestants were in control they did their own share of killing.

seashale76 said:

It isn't. However- if all you've got to go on is what you think the Holy Spirit is telling you personally- then you're in trouble. If I had a dollar for every person and their denomination that thought that- I'd be extremely wealthy. Practically everyone that actually studies Church history does not stay heterodox. The good news is that Christ came to establish a Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit in all things. You already believe said Church was guided by the Holy Spirit to give you whatever scriptures you decided to accept- that same Church was guided by the Holy Spirit in how to interpret the scriptures as well.

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Well, I don't know enough about the Orthodox Church, so I will not comment. The Catholic Church says the exact same thing, and even they don't agree.

The "all division is because of Sola Scriptura" argument is absolute nonsense.

Not even everyone in your own Church agrees on everything.