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Featured Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Korean-American Christian, Aug 7, 2017.

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  1. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    And the RC feeling is mutual.
    Which is determined by examination of the only wholly inspired substantive body of express Divine revelation, the Scriptures, and here in particular the record of what the NT church believed. In which we see:
    Zero prayers to anyone else in Heaven by God.

    Zero instances of NT pastors being referred by the distinctive word used for a separate class of sacerdotal believers. All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). But nowhere are NT pastors distinctively titled hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distinctive sacerdotal class titled "hiereus" (later "priests" in English) was a later development.

    Zero instances of NT pastors conducting the Lord's supper as a sacrifice for sin, to be consumed as the physical body of Christ in order to obtain spiritual life.

    nstead, the primary work of NT pastors is that of prayer and preaching. (Act 6:3,4; 2 Tim.4:2) by which they “feed the flock” (Acts 20:28; 1Pt. 5:2) ) for the word is called spiritual "milk," (1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22) and "meat," (Heb. 5:12-14) what is said to "nourish" the souls of believers and build them, up, (1Timothy 4:6; Acts 20:32) and believing it is how the lost obtain life in themselves. (1 Timothy 4:6; ;Acts 15:7-9; cf. Psalms 19:7)

    Rather than ]the Lord's supper being the central focus of the NT church, it is only manifestly described to any real degree in one epistle in the record of the NT church (Acts onward, which writings show us how the NT church understood the gospels) and , and nowhere is the Lord's supper described as spiritual food, and the means of obtaining spiritual life in oneself.
    More here by the grace of God.

    The recourse to another stream of Divine revelation is one that the devil himself has appealed to and as seen in cults, but while "might want to know" would be a more careful valid qualifier which would allow for commentaries, etc., and which Scripture materially provides for, God has always provided what believers need to know for obedience, even from Genesis 2, and writing is God's means of preservation, (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19; Ps. 19:7-11; 119; John 20:31; Acts 17:11; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15;Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Lk. 24:44,45; Acts 17:11)

    And as is abundantly evidenced, the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes first being spoken, and that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

    Thus even the veracity of oral preaching was subject to testing by that which was written, (Acts 17:11) and not vice versa, and in doing so we see the Catholic traditions of men exposed as such.
    Why not say He sung them as Levites are said to have done? The Lord may have also followed Jewish liturgy of morning, afternoon, and evening prayer services, but the Holy Spirit of Christ has not been negligent to provide what is required for the life of faith in His inspired Scriptures, which includes teachers, but such are subject to Scripture, which is were we must part from Catholicism.

    Note also that the main attempted supports for PTCBIH are covered in my original post to this thread. The lengths of extrapolation that Caths must resort to for what is supposed to be a basic common practice in the NT church is itself an argument against it
     
  2. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Where is the unfriendly button?

    Forgive me...
     
  3. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Okay, I was just wondering, as that was unclear from your post.

    Thank you. :)
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Maybe in the East, however, Jerome does not mention Baruch (yet includes Esther) in his "Prologue to the Books of the Kings" where he lays out the Hebrew TaNaKh. At the very least Western church ancient attestation of the 66 book canon. Not 16th century machinations.

    Jerome on the Canon of Scripture

    The first of these books is called Bresith, to which we give the name Genesis. The second, Elle Smoth, which bears the name Exodus; the third, Vaiecra, that is Leviticus; the fourth, Vaiedabber, which we call Numbers; the fifth, Elle Addabarim, which is entitled Deuteronomy. These are the five books of Moses, which they properly call Thorath, that is, 'Law.'

    The second class is composed of the Prophets, and they begin with Jesus the son of Nave, which among them is called
    Joshua ben Nun. Next in the series is Sophtim, that is the book of Judges; and in the same book they include Ruth, because the events narrated occurred in the days of the Judges. Then comes Samuel, which we call First and Second Kings. The fourth is Malachim, that is, Kings, which is contained in the third and fourth volumes of Kings. And it is far better to say Malachim, that is Kings, than Malachoth, that is Kingdoms. For the author does not describe the Kingdoms of many nations, but that of one people, the people of Israel, which is comprised in the twelve tribes. The fifth is Isaiah; the sixth, Jeremiah; the seventh, Ezekiel; and the eighth is the book of the Twelve Prophets, which is called among them Thare Asra.

    To the third class belong the Hagiographa, of which the first book begins with Job; the second with David, whose writings they divide into five parts and comprise in one volume of Psalms. The third is Solomon, in three books: Proverbs, which they call Parables, that is
    Masaloth; Ecclesiastes, that is Coeleth; and the Song of Songs, which they denote by the title Sir Assirim. The sixth is Daniel; the seventh, Dabre Aiamim, that is, Words of Days, which we may more descriptively call a chronicle of the whole of the sacred history, the book that amongst us is called First and Second Paralipomenon [Chronicles]. The eighth is Ezra, which itself is likewise divided amongst Greeks and Latins into two books; the ninth is Esther.

    And so there are also twenty-two books of the Old Law; that is, five of Moses, eight of the prophets, nine of the Hagiographa, though some include Ruth and Kinoth (Lamentations) amongst the Hagiographa, and think that these books ought to be reckoned separately; we should thus have twenty-four books of the ancient Law. And these the Apocalypse of John represents by the twenty-four elders, who adore the Lamb and offer their crowns with lowered visage, while in their presence stand the four living creatures with eyes before and behind, that is, looking to the past and the future, and with unwearied voice crying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and is and will be."---Jerome (Preface to the Books of the Kings. Circa A.D. 391)
     
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  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes I was aware of Revelation, however did not know the EO church actually called any NT book deuterocanonical. It's interesting to look at the development of the canon in the East. For example the Ethiopian Orthodox contains the largest canon including 1Enoch.

    I'll have to remember the above during the next "Luther tossed out books of the NT!" thread and that was a 16th century deal. ^_^

    Which of course he did not, and treated Revelation and Hebrews much in the same vein as Cyril of Jerusalem. And the epistle of James had an early sketchy history as well.

    The early church theologians treated the books of the NT it seems in the same way the Hebrews treated TaNaKh. Meaning there were levels of authority for determining doctrine. Torah comes first, then the Prophets, then the Writings.
     
  6. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From another similar thread.

    Here is a snip from the earliest know Christian liturgy.

    It comes from Syria.

    The Priest says this prayer quietly:: - O mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, beseech for me the only-begotten Son, who was born of thee, to forgive me my offences and my sins, and to accept from my feeble and sinful hands this sacrifice which my weakness offers upon this altar, through thy intercession for me, O holy mother.

    The liturgy itself bears the name of Addai who was a student of St. Thomas, sent into Syria and Iraq.

    The Syrian Church could have made it up... but that won't change the timeline.

    Forgive me...
     
  7. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    You would be wrong, in that praying is an act of asking. Angel Gabriel asked Mary to be the mother of the most High. Otherwise, it would be a command, which it wasn't. God did not demand that Mary carry His Son, he asked, prayed. Otherwise, she would not have been given the opportunity to say Yes.
     
  8. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Well, he says he's speaking for God, so it's God's judgement.
     
  9. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Nope. I humbled myself and accepted the truth.
     
  10. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Not quite. The Supreme standard is that God speaks in more ways than just what's written in the Bible. But, you know, the content of the Bible is, itself, what you call 'tradition of men'.
    Paul says to test against Scripture, and that's what's true. But he also says to Timothy to hold fast to the traditions I have taught you.
    In Revelation it shows the prayers of the faithful rising to those alive in heaven.
    The difference between the Mormons, the Protestants and all the other 33,000 denominations of Christianity is that they are all later than the apostolic age. The Catholic Church began on the first Pentecost and was guided by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus declared.
    Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

    Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 – this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

    1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 – we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

    Rom. 8:35-39 – therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

    Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 – Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

    Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 – God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

    Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

    John 15:1-6 – Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

    1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

    1 Cor. 12:26 – when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

    1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 – now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

    Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

    1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 – we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

    2 Peter 1:4 – since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

    1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 – we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

    Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 – in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

    Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 – in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

    Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
     
  11. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    And praying to saints in heaven is, too:
    Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

    Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 – this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

    1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 – we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

    Rom. 8:35-39 – therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

    Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 – Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

    Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 – God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

    Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

    John 15:1-6 – Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

    1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

    1 Cor. 12:26 – when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

    1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 – now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

    Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

    1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 – we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

    2 Peter 1:4 – since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

    1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 – we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

    Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 – in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

    Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 – in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

    Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
     
  12. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Priests do, and some committed laity, I for one.
     
  13. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    I'm using the term deuterocanonical as a way to dinstinguish those books actually read publicly in Liturgy(canonical) with those sanctioned to be read outside of liturgy(worthy of reading; deuterocanonical) and those completely rejected which were called apocrypha. There are a number of ancient canons in Orthodoxy which list the books. The varying list will include 1 &2 Clement, Didache, Hermas.
    The best manuscripts that represent the eastern (byzantine)canon are probably codex Sinaiticus and codex Alexandrinus.
    And yes the Ethiopian canon differs from all others. This difference from their Coptic counterparts can probably be traced to the fact they had their own (Aksum) Kingdom while the Alexandrians were within the Romans Empire, thus less influence on a standardized table of contents.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  14. Paidiske

    Paidiske Clara bonam audax Supporter

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    due to multiple violations of the flaming rule.​

    MOD HAT OFF
     
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