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Featured Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Korean-American Christian, Aug 7, 2017.

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  1. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    When the Holy Spirit inspires approx. 200 prayers in Scripture and instructs us to prayer after this manner, "Our Father who art in Heaven," to whom believers have direct access to in the holy of holies in Heaven by the blood of Christ, (Hebrews 10:19) who is the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), who is the only one said to ever live to do so, (Hebrews 7:25) and never shows created being having the ability to hear all prayer, and nowhere records any prayer/supplication to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord - except by pagans - despite there always being plenty of created being in Heaven to pray to, and despite prayer to created beings being a most basic common practice by Catholics;

    then we can be sure praying to created beings in Heaven is not Scriptural, and to do so it is impugn the Spirit of God for only showing prayer made to God, and only teaching that prayer to God is addressed to God.

    Prayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) is simply another of the Catholic distinctives that are not manifest in the inspired record of what the NT church believed and practiced (Acts onward, which is interpretive of the gospels) and here is absent from the entire body of inspired Scripture.

    Although the weight of Scriptural warrant is not the basis for the veracity of Catholic doctrine, and what "The Catholic Church" says is to be the supreme law, in condescension to those to test what is taught by the inspired writings, as the noble Bereans did, (Acts 17:11) and not vice versa, Catholics will desperately attempt to support PTCBIH by reasoning that since we ask each other to pray for us on earth then we can do so of those in Heaven.

    But only God is shown able to hear all prayer and is the only one appealed to as able to do so, and "only knowest the hearts of all the children of men," (1 Kings 8:39; 2 Chronicles 6:30; Acts 1:24) and from what I recall any two-way communication btwn created beings required both to somehow be visibly in the same place, versus believers praying "hear Thou from Heaven" 2 Chronicles 6:21,23,25,27,30,33,35,39).

    Catholics also vainly imagine that Angels and elders offering up prayers in Heaven (Revelation 5:8; 8:5) somehow supports praying to them, but which is not what is shown, nor even that they knew the express contents of these prayers before hand, and rather than this offering of prayers being some continuous postal service, they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)

    For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)

    Another attempt to invoke Genesis 48:16, taking it out of context, in which the addressee is God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, (Genesis 48:15) who is addressed as an angel, as in other examples of angelophanies (cf. Genesis 32:22-30 , Hosea 12:4; Acts 7:30) who "redeemed me [Joseph] from all evil," which manifestly was God. Joseph is not changing the addressee from God to an anonymous angel, but is addressing God as an angel.

    Another and egregious example is that of using such as texts "Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts" (Psalms 148:2) to support praying to angels. However, this also ignores context for to be consistent, contextually the Catholic must also affirm praying to created elements is also encouraged:

    Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. (Psalms 148:3) Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: (Psalms 148:7-10)

    Catholics also employ in the specious hermeneutic that if God does not specifically explicitly disallow something then it may be sanctioned, as if the Spirit of God would actually fail to provide actual examples of PTCBIH while providing approx. 200 prayers, and yet recording that of such by pagans, and only instructing and exampling prayer to God in Heaven.
     
  2. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Yet what Scripture describes as worship (which is not only defined by one word) is seen in the manner of adulation Catholics give to their Mary. Which if not always worship is blasphemous, which is a cousin to idolatry or part of it.

    For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,
    • As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."
    • as Christ was sinless, so Mary was;
    • as the Lord remained a virgin, so Mary;
    • as Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);
    • as the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);
    • as Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);
    • as Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also;
    • as Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
    • as the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
    • as Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”
    • as Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”
    • as the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is enthroned (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;
    • as Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;
    • as Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to do so;
    • as all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace;
    • as Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;”
    • as no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;
    • and as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
    • And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!
    Catholic ascriptions of attributes, praise, adulation (worship) to Mary (More can be seen at this link (The up mark ^ points to the last referenced source.).​
    We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess, because it is not possible to overestimate the privileges God gave her in making her His own Mother. “What the church teaches,” by Monsignor J.D. Conway/ Imprimatur of Ralph L. Hayes,, New York; Harper and Brothers; 1962 (He also states, “It seems manifest that Christians simply adapted the art of pagan Rome to their religious needs:” p. 218)
    Pope Pius XII asserts in an address on the Queenship of Mary, “after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe....In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.’ Catholic Culture, Prayer of Pope Pius XII, Composed for the Marian Year, 1954

    The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ — (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8.
    "At the command of Mary all obey, even God. [St. Bemardine] She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king [wrong]; and since the son's power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. [Richard of St. Lawrence] The glories of Mary, by Alphonsus Liguori THE GLORIES OF MARY
    "O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart. We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. EWTN - Prayers
    "I command what I will, and introduce whom I will."
    When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. Treatise on True Devotion
    ...most merciful Lady..It suffices us that thou willest our salvation, and then we are sure to obtain it. — Prayer of Anselm in The Glories of Mary.
    Mary can be declared by the Church to be not only the “helpmate” of that Second Divine Person — Co-Redemptrix in Salvation, Mediatrix in grace — but actually “like unto Him.”...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as "the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him," (Cardinal Newman); As Mother of God, says Lepicier, Mary contracts a certain affinity with the Father; · The pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father, which has fitted her to pour out into the world the everlasting light which issues from that loving Father.... He has no children but by her, and communicates no graces but by her...and through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts. A Marian Synthesis; A Marian Synthesis
    Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter...She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity...the holy City of God, the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived...her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands...because it is always humble and conformed to his will, the dispenser of all he possesses...What immeasurable greatness...Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, "Hail, Mary", while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory,... Moreover, we should repeat after the Holy Spirit, "All the glory of the king's daughter is within".... Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary alone who merited it and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the perfection of her virtues." — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, miscl. http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/docs/true.doc
    "Just as in the natural and corporal generation of children there are a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary. " Montfort: Catholic Treasury | True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin]
    According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173
    "In "Glories of Mary" by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches,
    Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary's work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God. - THE SECRET OF MARY, St. Louis de Montfort; St. Louis de Montfort - The Secret of Mary
    O immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection, and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil... Thou (Mary) art my only hope. . . . Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation ... My Queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach. Alphonsus de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, Burns and Oates, Ld., 1868, pp. 115, 249
    And where can we find an advocate who is more earnest in the affair of our salvation, or who loves us more than Mary? "We acknowledge," says Saint Augustine of her, "that one alone is solicitous for us in Heaven. "...in order that our Lord may pardon us our sins, help us with His grace, free us from dangers, and relieve us in our wants, says, addressing in the words of an ancient writer: 'We know that we have as it were but one solicitous in Heaven for us, and thou art this one, so greatly does thy solicitude for us exceed that of all the Saints.'" - Liguori, Saint Alfonso Maria De'. (2013). pp. 181-2. The Glories of Mary. London: Forgotten Books. http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/The_Glories_of_Mary_1000665057/181"
    ...That God loved Mary more than all the other Saints together... "We acknowledge," says Saint Augustine of her, "that one alone is solicitous for us in Heaven." Mary could not be more closely united to God without becoming God. Saint Alphonsus de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, in Little Book of Saints by Christine Barrely; A LITTLE BOOK OF MARY
    ...The tenderness that Thou showest us in Heaven, in obtaining for us by Thy prayers so many mercies from God, obliges us to acknowledge that in Heaven we have but one advocate, and that is Thyself; and that Thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our welfare. - Alphonsus de Liguori, The Immaculate Heart of Mary is the Refuge of Sinners;
    Richard of St. Laurence encourages sinners to have recourse to this great name, "because it alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils;" and "there is no disorder, however malignant, that does not immediately yield to the power of the name of Mary." — St. Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/AL.html
    The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. — Iucunda Semper Expectatione, Pope Leo XIII, 1894
    But by her compassion for her Divine Son she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten. — The Reign of Mary, Vol. 40; Issue 48
    "We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. — Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary,” by John Ferraro, Nihil Obstat John C. Hogan, Diocesan Censor; Imprimatur (1) - Richard Cardinal Cushing Daughters of St.Paul, 1964).
    "After God, it is impossible to think of anything greater than His Mother." p. 83^
    ..to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...Next to God, she deserves the highest praise....no creature, can ever be compared to her:"To what shall I compare thee, or to whom shall I liken thee, O daughter of Jerusalem." (Lam. 2:13) [another verse taken out of context, as it refers to the affliction of Jewish mothers in general due to the judgment upon Jerusalem.] —SMR-98 Mary and the Precious Blood
    ...all graces of the Precious Blood come through Mary. — MOTHER OF THE EUCHARIST
    "O Christian who comest full of faith to receive the Bread of life, eat It worthily, and remember that It was fashioned out of Mary's pure blood."
    Mary can quite rightfully beckon to us and speak to us in the words of the inspired prophet, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5).
    Mary possesses a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity,...he Virgin Mother "was, after her Son, exalted by divine grace above all angels and men." — Mary the Blessed Virgin - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online
    ...Our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’” — Leo XIII: Encyclical, Augustissimae,
    ..."Limitless is the difference between God's servants and His Mother...Your honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation; your greatness places you above the angels...from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer's Kingdom;... she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother's prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused....Theologians and preachers...must beware of unfounded opinions and exaggerated expressions which go beyond the truth." [an in-credible injunction if Scripture is to be held as the Truth, as going beyond the Truth us exactly what Pope Pius XII is doing. But Scripture is not the supreme authority for Rome, but is made into a servant for her purposes, and Truth to Rome can be whatever she autocratically declares.] — Ad Caeli Reginam, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII; Ad Caeli Reginam (October 11, 1954) | PIUS XII
    "The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose." — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185.
    The foundation of all our confidence. . . is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary." — Pope Pius IX in the encyclical Ubi Primum
    ..."she is Mother of her Creator...through Whom the Holy Trinity is sanctified." "...she mediates between God and men." "Run through all creation in your thought and see if there be one equal or superior to the Holy Virgin, Mother of God." (Works taken from "Letter to the Rev. E. B. Pusey" contained in Newman's "Difficulties of Anglicans" Volume II); Internet History Sourcebooks

    Rejected by God because of the multitude of our sins, through you we seek Him out again, rediscover him, and are saved...your magnificence is infinite..
    No one achieves salvation except through you...No one receives grace except through you...no one obtains mercy except through you."
    "...we venerate you with awe...at every moment we exalt you..."
    "O Mary, who are the life of Christians..."
    "Thou are all-powerful in saving sinners.." "the greatest consolation that I receive from God... the light of my soul when it is enveloped in darkness...the hope of my salvation"
    "O Sovereign Queen! Thou art our defense and our joy...obtain for me, by thy all-powerful intercession, a place with thee in Paradise. Being the Mother of God, thou canst obtain it, if thou pleasest, O Mary. Thou are all-powerful in saving sinners." ( St. Germanus (638-730), first bishop of Cyzicus, patriarch of Constantinople, various works; International Marian Research Institute Home : University of Dayton, Ohio)
    "Mother of Salvation, Blessed Lady, you are the Mother of Justification and those who are justified; the Mother of Reconciliation." (St. Anselm (1033-1109), bishop, scholar, and Doctor of the Church, Archbishop of Canterbury "Blessed Art Thou: A Treasury of Marian Prayers")
    O Jesus, Son of God, and you, O Mother Mary... I beg you...May my mind venerate you both as you deserve...In your service may my life be spent. - St. Anselm (1033-1109), The Essential Mary Handbook
    "O Divine and living object whose beauty has charmed God the Creator... You are all-beautiful and very close to God, above the Cherubim and higher than the Seraphim, right near God Himself!" (St. John Damascene (d. 754).
    He who fills heaven and earth, and is the Lord of all, was pleased to be in need of you...you have made Him a debtor who gives being to all creatures. We are all debtors to God, but He is a debtor to you." (St. Methodius (d. 847), "The Greatest Marian Prayers")
    "...you love us with a love that no other love can surpass. How often you appease the wrath of our Divine Judge, when He is on the point of punishing us! All the treasures of the mercy of God are in your hands...Your glory is increased when, through you, penitents are forgiven and reach heaven...the greatest glory that we can have, after seeing God, will be to see you, to love you, and to be under your protection. " (St. Peter Damian (1007-1072), "The Greatest Marian Prayers;" International Marian Research Institute Home : University of Dayton, Ohio)


    Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

    In addition, although (technically) Mary is not to be worshiped in the same sense that God is worshiped, yet the distinctions between devotion to Mary and the worship of God are quite fine, and much due to the psychological appeal of a heavenly mother (especially among those for whom Scripture is not supreme), then the historical practice of Catholics has been to exalt Mary above that which is written. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "By the sixteenth century, as evidenced by the spiritual struggles of the Reformers, the image of Mary had largely eclipsed the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of believers." (Robert C. Broderick, ed., The Catholic Encyclopedia, revised and updated; NY: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1987, pp.32,33)
    The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17,18,19,25). The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary) as expected, it imagines this practice came from the apostles and NT church, but which never exampled or instructed it, and instead showed that the believer has immediate access to God in the Divine Christ, (Heb. 10:19), who is the all sufficient and immediate intercessor between God (the Father) and man. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) To the glory of God
     
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  3. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    While praying to them may not be idolatry, ascribing abilities, glory and titles to created beings with only belong to God, and are nowhere ascribed to created beings, even under grace - as are ascribed to the omnipotent, all-powerful Mary of Catholicism, whom God only acts thru, is blasphemous.
     
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  4. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    And note that "because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." (Galatians 4:6) not "Mama, Mother." Mormonic doctrine also includes a heavenly mother, if not praying to her.
     
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  5. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Remember that for Catholics doctrinal warrant from Scripture is not necessary, since what the church says is to be the supreme law.

    "It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors ." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

    The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.” — Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), p. 275.

    Rome can even claim to later "remember" what history essentially "forgot," as in the case of the Assumption, which was so lacking in testimony from early tradition that Ratzinger stated,.

    Before Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers' answer was emphatically negative... Altaner, the patrologist from Wurzburg¦had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5C; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the "apostolic tradition. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared.

    But if you conceive of "tradition" as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13), then subsequent "remembering" (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) [yet "grasp" is not the same as "remembering"] can come to recognize what it has not caught sight of previously [since there was nothing to see] and was already handed down in the original Word," J. Ratzinger, Milestones (Ignatius, n.d.), pp. 58-59.
     
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  6. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    How does this teach praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH)? As said, this is not what is shown, nor even that they knew the express contents of these prayers before hand, and rather than this offering of prayers being some continuous postal service, they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)

    For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)

    That Catholics must resort to trying to wrest support for PTCBIH from such texts is itself an argument against this practice being Scriptural, including by the NT church, the record of which examples zero of it.

    Do you really think the Spirit of God would neglect to provide manifest examples of PTCBIH by believers despite this being a most common practice in Catholicism, while being faithful to provide approx. 200 prayers in Scripture, and record only pagans making supplication to unseen beings in Heaven, and only provide instruction to address God in Heaven?
     
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  7. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    A false analogy, for while Scripture teaches that "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things," (Genesis 9:3) and thus created things may have medicinal value, yet this does not sanction consuming the flesh of man, even as a consensual practice, as in endocannibalism (though perhaps in dire circumstances when one cannot find food cannibalism of the dead might be sanctioned).

    Likewise Scripture exhorts and only teaches of prayer to God, providing approx. 200 prayers to Heaven, none of which are addressed to created beings - except by pagans - and with instruction on whom to address being to God, who is the only one shown able to hear all prayer, and to know all hearts.

    You might argue PTCBIH can be necessary, but which is not seen in Scripture, and presumes an ability which only God is shown to have.
     
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  8. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Not, it is nowhere all over the 72 books, though and previous post on prayers as incense , by the grace of God.
     
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  9. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Another false analogy, for while the actual fashion of clothes is not shown in Scripture (except for OT priests), that we are to cover our nakedness is shown, and nakedness after the fall never is sanctioned, but is only shown negatively. Likewise that we are to pray to Heaven is shown, but praying to created beings in Heaven never is and is only shown negatively.
     
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  10. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    First of all it's OT.
    Second, in those times you needed the priest to pray for you.
    Now, we have Christ, we no intercessor..
    Not even close to the same situation.
     
  11. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    The meaning of prayer is not the issue, but the manner and object of it.

    One would have a hard time in Bible times kneeling or prostrating oneself before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

    Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?
    [​IMG]
    Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

    The real Mary of Scripture only prayed to the Lord in Heaven, never to anyone else, which again is never seen among the approx. 200 prayers in Scripture - except by pagans.
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Indeed, and if there was any book that we should expect to see PTCBIH taught as doctrine it would be here. But instead we are exhorted to look " unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; " (Hebrews 12:2)

    For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16)

    Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:17-18)


    Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:19-22)
     
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  13. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    By the 1st century this had developed in Judaism, including prayer for the dead:

    " It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period—prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews. The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45,46

    But the Lord instructed and only exampled, After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Matthew 6:9)

    And contextually what you refer to actually indicates that this speculation was by unbelievers, perhaps even irreverent mockers gazing at a spectacle, and hoping for more, which is hardly an affirmation of PTCBIH.

    And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. (Mark 15:29-36)




     
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  14. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Which is taken out of context, in which the addressee is God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, (Genesis 48:15) who is addressed as an angel, as in other examples of angelophanies (cf. Genesis 32:22-30 , Hosea 12:4; Acts 7:30) who "redeemed me [Joseph] from all evil," which manifestly was God.

    Joseph is not changing the addressee from God to an anonymous angel, but is addressing God as an angel.
     
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  15. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Obviously they are only more powerful to the degree God gives them power to do things, but that as a class they are more powerful than human beings remains true, thus they are commissioned as "all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation," (Hebrews 1:14) yet are never shown to be objects of prayer to Heaven.
     
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  16. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    And just were do you see two different classes of believers, distinguished by the title of "saints?"

    The word for saint (hagios) is used to describe all believers, not a special class who alone are in Heaven. Consistent with "saints" denoting a special class, “Distributing to the necessity of saints,” “I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints,” "For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you," (Rm. 15:25; 2Cor. 9:1) means the rest of believers can fend for themselves.

    Likewise the love which ye have to all the saints," (Colossians 1:4) means love toward one class of believers and ignoring the rest, but the word is used for all believers, such as "all the saints which are in all Achaia." (2Cor. 1:1)

    And that saints are not a distinct mature class is shown by the fact that they are subjects of growth unto perfection thereto, referring to the whole church. (Eph. 4:12)

    Moreover, texts such as "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 1:1) is not distinguishing btwn two classes of believers, that of saints versus simply faithful believers, but such is a parallelism such as, “We are his people and the sheep of his pasture” (Ps. 99:3) Otherwise other non-saint believers are being neglected in, "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:" (Philippians 1:1) Instead, the saints are faithful brethren and faithful brethren are saints, growing toward fuller maturity.
     
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  17. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Abraham's failures, as in going into Hagar, and engaging in half-truth deception in lack of faith, were exceptions to his character, as is the case with holy characters, but he was not praying to any created being in Genesis 48:16, as explained in previous posts, by the grace of God.
     
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  18. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    As shown before by God's grace, to be consistent, you must also affirm praying to created elements:

    Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. (Psalms 148:3) Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps: Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: (Psalms 148:7-10)
     
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  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Luther's did i think, as apocryphal, as Tobit is a spurious fantastic tale, with a a women, Sarah, who has lost seven husbands because Asmodeus, the demon of lust, and ‘the worst of demons’, abducts and kills every man she marries on their wedding night before the marriage can be consummated! (The women at the well had nothing on her.)

    And about a man, Tobias, who was sleeping with his eyes open while birds dropped dung into in his eyes (sound sleeper!) and blinded him. And who later is attacked by a fish leaping out of the river to devour him! But Raphael has him capture it and later he burns the fish’s liver and heart to drive away the demon Asmodeus away to Upper Egypt, enabling him and Sarah to consummate his marriage.

    No wonder the officially approved NAB Bible says in its intro to Tobit that it is folklore, as if that was not obvious, and in rejecting this, thank God, we have not followed "cunningly devised fables", "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
     
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  20. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    And just where in any translation "correct" such as the KJV so that the Scriptures clearly teach the constant intercession of the heavenly saints, and thus praying to them?

    Angels and elders offering up prayers in Heaven (Revelation 5:8; 8:5) does not support praying to them nor the constant intercession of the heavenly saints, but rather than this offering of prayers being some continuous postal service, they are offered in memorial before the judgments of the last days (Rev. 5:8 and 8:3,4; f. Lv. 2:2,15,16; 6:15; 24:7; Num. 5:15)

    For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)
     
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