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Goatee

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I disagree. However my point is that it really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if I speak a human or non-human language because it is about worshipping God spirit to Spirit. The actual sounds are not the focus, the thankfulness and praise in the spirit is the point. A person can sing in the spirit (1 Corinthians 14). A person can pray in the spirit. A person is instructed to worship God in spirit because God is spirit (John). Regular prayer is for words and sounds, tongues can be human or non-human sound, it doesn't really matter. The heart is what matters.



There is a business man, and his wife, who fell over and writhed around on the floor (as you put it). When they got up, they sold all they had and moved to a small city in Asia somewhere to serve the poor.

By their fruit you will know them. Not by how YOU THINK a person should behave. Or by what YOU THINK is holy. Tell me, by your "holy" definition, is it ever holy to dance naked?

Well, God works in mysterious ways. Maybe they came to their senses, realised that what they were engaged in was false and decided to follow God with a clean sheet! God bless them.
 
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swordsman1

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Does personal prayer serve others?
Luke 5:16 Jesus withdrew and prayed alone, why? Because it's hard to serve others when you're exhausted.
John 17 Jesus prays for Himself. Why? To serve others, to gain the wisdom and strength of spirit to lay down His life. He prayed for Himself first, then for His disciples, then for all believers. But first, He prayed for Himself.

Personal prayer is not a spiritual gift. But tongues is.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Well, God works in mysterious ways. Maybe they came to their senses, realised that what they were engaged in was false and decided to follow God with a clean sheet! God bless them.
Yep, they sure did come to their senses after God worked His mysterious ways
 
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LinkH

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The fact it contradicts scripture just means the person does not understand how to apply the law of first mention, that does not negate it.
Could you show us an example of where the prophets, Jesus, or the apostles used the law of first mention in the Bible to show how to use it properly?
 
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LinkH

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If there was no interpreter present he was to stay in the church and keep silent, and pray a silent prayer. It doesn't say go home and speak in tongues in private.

You assume it is possible to pray silently in tongues. Acts says they spoke in tongues 'as the Spirit gave them utterance'-- the Spirit gave them the ability to speak it out.

The context is entirely "in the church".

If you believe that, then what is your basis for restricting speaking in tongues at home.

Speaking in tongues in private would go against the purpose of spiritual gifts - to serve others (1 Peter 4:10, 1 Cor 12:7).

Do you believe it would violate the teaching of scripture for someone with the gift of faith to use that gift privately at home praying for others? How those gifted to discern spirits only allowed to do so in the assembly?
 
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swordsman1

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You assume it is possible to pray silently in tongues. Acts says they spoke in tongues 'as the Spirit gave them utterance'-- the Spirit gave them the ability to speak it out.

I can pray silently in English, so why not in tongues? I am sure you could control the volume of your voice to a level where you are only mouthing the words. Or even just say the prayer in your head.

If you believe that, then what is your basis for restricting speaking in tongues at home.

Because practicing it privately at home would not be benefiting others as spiritual gifts ought. Tongues ought to be edifying to others, either by being understood by a foreign listener, or by translation.

Do you believe it would violate the teaching of scripture for someone with the gift of faith to use that gift privately at home praying for others? How those gifted to discern spirits only allowed to do so in the assembly?

No, as both would be benefiting others.
 
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LinkH

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Because practicing it privately at home would not be benefiting others as spiritual gifts ought. Tongues ought to be edifying to others, either by being understood by a foreign listener, or by translation.

In the church, yes, but you cannot know that someone speaking in tongues is not interceding for others.

Paul said to forbid not to speak with tongues. If you forbid speaking in tongues in private you are forbidding it in a way the scriptures do not.
 
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swordsman1

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n the church, yes, but you cannot know that someone speaking in tongues is not interceding for others.

Tongues would be beneficial to others by reason of it edifying the hearers, not by the potential intercessory nature of the prayer which, in private, you would never know.

Paul said to forbid not to speak with tongues. If you forbid speaking in tongues in private you are forbidding it in a way the scriptures do not.

The context of the whole chapter is the local meetings. So that command would only apply to meetings.
 
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LinkH

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The context of the whole chapter is the local meetings. So that command would only apply to meetings.

You seem eager to restrict Christian liberty when it comes to a certain type of prayer outside of the assembly. You assert that the text only applies to the assembly. What reason is there to believe that besides the fact that it fits with the conclusion you want to arrive at?
 
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swordsman1

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You seem eager to restrict Christian liberty when it comes to a certain type of prayer outside of the assembly. You assert that the text only applies to the assembly. What reason is there to believe that besides the fact that it fits with the conclusion you want to arrive at?
Because that is the only context presented in the chapter. See v5, 12, 18, 23, 26, 28, 34.
 
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LinkH

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Because that is the only context presented in the chapter. See v5, 12, 18, 23, 26, 28, 34.

You assume where Paul spoke in tongues more than them all. There is no evidence for 'preaching in tongues' in the Bible.

If God has not forbid something, you should not. Especially in this case, since the passage says 'forbid not to speak with tongues.' You presume to assume that this speaks of tongues in the assembly, and are brazen enough to forbid speaking in tongues where the Bible has not.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Could you show us an example of where the prophets, Jesus, or the apostles used the law of first mention in the Bible to show how to use it properly?

Did I claim Jesus used the law of first mention?

Can you show me where Jesus spoke of tongues?
 
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LinkH

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Did I claim Jesus used the law of first mention?

Can you show me where Jesus spoke of tongues?

There are Jewish hermeneutical principles that Jesus used, like 'greater to lesser' arguments. Is there a reason to believe the 'law of first mention.' I've seen it used in some weird ways. Do you have any good examples of where it really makes sense?
 
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2Timothy2:15

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There are Jewish hermeneutical principles that Jesus used, like 'greater to lesser' arguments. Is there a reason to believe the 'law of first mention.' I've seen it used in some weird ways. Do you have any good examples of where it really makes sense?


Really too large a topic to discuss here. But you are welcome to read up, maybe it will add to your bible studies.

http://www.growingchristianresources.com/2012/04/bible-study-law-of-first-mention.html

http://www.biblicalresearch.info/page56.html

I do not even know or think that the law of first mention is really needed to point out some facts....for that we can simply use hermeneutics. You do agree with the use of hermeneutics yes?

Never the less I am not sure why you are hounding on this accept the fact that in goes against your holding on to tongues in the way that you do. OT - tongues never ever mentioned, not even once, Jesus never mentioned tongues nor spoke in them. We did not see them until ACTS and frankly I believe it is a legit gift but I do not think it has such an importance as you place on it.
 
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Biblicist

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1 Cor 13:1-3
Hyperbole or hypothesis


A. Hyperbole
Whenever we deem a particular statement to be a unit of hyperbole, we immediately are compelled to recognize that the particular literary unit has both a primary and a secondary application. This means that the primary meaning is logically what it is, where we have to surmise that the author or speaker wants us to read something else into the statement. If we deem any literary unit to be hyperbole or that it contains hyperbole, then the onus is on us to demonstrate that the first meaning was not what the author intended.

To deem any literary unit as being based on hyperbole we must be convinced that what the author has stated is something that either cannot be achieved or that it is so unlikely to occur that logic and reason would dictate that the author is employing hyperbole.

B. Hypothesis (what is hypothetical)
1 Corinthians: A Shorter Exegetical & Pastoral Commentary, Anthony C. Thiselton (2000) p.218
If I were to speak in human or in angelic tongues (v. 1) is an indefinite hypothesis. The NIV and NRSV miss this by treating it as an open or contingent hypothesis, “if I speak . . . ,” just as AV/KJV and NJB miss this with “though I speak.” Paul paints a hypothetical scenario without praise or blame: suppose it were the case that I spoke with... angelic tongues but had not love, I would have become — like what? Paul uses for his analogy a piece of bronze that was constructed not to produce a musical note with a definite tone and pitch but only to amplify sound or noise. Without love I would merely be an ancient megaphone, an acoustic resonator or a resonating, reverberating acoustic jar. The Greek word involved (echon) denotes not a pitched note, but what transmits sound, usually through resonating. Coupled with the Greek alalazon, it denotes endlessly reverberating noise that produces no melody. (See Harris, “‘Sounding Brass’”; and Klein, “Noisy Gong or Acoustic Vase?”)​

The trouble with referring to 1 Cor 13:1-3 as being a unit of hyperbole is that Paul has already informed his audience that certain things within this three verse passage have become a key part of his walk in Christ which Garland describes in his commentary on First Corinthians;

1 Corinthians, David E. Garland (2003) p.610 [bold emphasis added]
The mysteries of God have been revealed to Paul (2:1, 9-10; 15:51), and he regards himself as a "steward of God’s mysteries” (4:1). He claims (along with them) to know the mind of Christ (2:16) and to have knowledge (8:1), and he imparts his knowledge to them throughout the letter. Paul has faith and has performed miracles (2 Cor. 12:12; Rom. 15:19). He voluntarily gave up his rights as an apostle to receive support so that he could carry out his ministry more effectively (1 Cor. 9:1-23). The hardship catalogs (4:11-12; 2 Cor. 4:7-12; 6:3-10; 11:7-11) reveal the toll that this service has taken on him.​

Of the eight following points within 13:1-3, as they have become a key part of his walk both with Christ and in the Spirit; how can the following 8 points which amount to being “marks of an Apostle-of-Christ” be deemed to be hyperbole? Anyone who knows anything about the life of Paul would fully realise that the following points are far from being a work of hyperbole but where they are reside fully within the very core of Paul’s person.

1 Cor 13:1-3
  • Tongues of men - Latin, Greek, Aramaic & Hebrew
  • Tongues of angels – Paul regularly prayed to the Father through the Holy Spirit (14:15)
  • Prophecy – Paul regularly prophesied
  • Knows all mysteries – He knew all ‘knowable’ and ‘revealed’ mysteries (1Cor 4:1)
  • Has all knowledge – He knew all ‘knowable’ and ‘revealed’ knowledge (2Cor 12:12)
  • All faith, so as to remove mountains – For this proverbial expression, see Thiselton below
  • Gives all his possessions to the poor – Paul was often destitute (1Cor 4:11-12)
  • Surrendered his body to be burned (or maybe to boast) – Paul knew that he would one day have to give his life for Christ

Anthony C. Thiselton has addresses how the 'to remove mountains of verse 2 is not hyperbole but in fact a proverbial saying.

First Corinthians, Anthony C. Thiselton (2000) p.1041
To remove mountains is an echo of a tradition that appears in Mark 11:23-24 and Matt 17:20 (cf. Matt. 21:21) as a saying of Jesus. In her commentary on Mark, Morna D. Hooker comments, “Moving a mountain appears to have been a proverbial saying for doing difficult tasks.” Similarly, R. T. France describes the Matthew saying as “a proverbial expression for the most improbable occurrence.” This is how Paul uses the phrase. Just as knowledge transcends mere human discovery, so the kind of faith which is a gift here transcends mere human capacity and expectation. But there is no need either to defend or to attack worldviews relating to “miracle.” The verb μεθιστάνειν means to remove an object from one place and to transfer it to another, here used as part of the proverbial imagery. Finally, πασαν τήν πίσην is likely to be a generic use of all: gifts of every kind of faith. But it may signify either an ideal (Godet), i.e., all possible faith, or an ultimate, i.e., absolute faith (Moffatt, Hering).​
 
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This passage is pretty clear that they are speaking in other languages. Theologians use something called the law of first mention. The law of first mention is where we start to establish doctrine around what the Lord has said through scripture. As far as I know Acts is the first mention of believers speaking in tongues, it would seem that it is being established as to what that means. Supernatural ability to speak in another language, I think a known language.
Be asured, no theologian who is worth his salt would ever promote such a concept as it has more holes in it than does swiss cheese.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Can you show me where Jesus spoke of tongues?

Some argue Jesus spoke in tongues in John 11:33

When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping who came with her, he groaned in his spirit, and was troubled

At the very least, tongues is similar to this "groaning in spirit".
 
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Goatee

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Some argue Jesus spoke in tongues in John 11:33

When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping who came with her, he groaned in his spirit, and was troubled

At the very least, tongues is similar to this "groaning in spirit".

Waw! Trying to get scripture fit your beliefs again buddy!

I agree though that people who do supposedly 'speak in tongues' usually emit lots of groaning, wailing, screeching, shouting and gibberish.

When Jesus groaned in His Spirit i would ay that that was 'VERY' different!
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Waw! Trying get scripture fit your beliefs again buddy!

I agree thought that people who do supposedly 'speak in tongues' usually emit lots of groaning, wailing, screeching, shouting and gibberish.

When Jesus groaned in His Spirit i would that was 'VERY' different!
Waw! You were there? Buddy? Well seeing as you were there when Jesus groaned in the Spirit, did you video it for us buddy?
 
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