Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Ref how can you say its not God's will that any should perish?
Very simply, Sunstone, because some
do perish, right? I don't believe that God's Will is an issue of chance. I believe that God is sovereign. I believe that
if God sovereignly Willed that none should perish
none would. I believe that the Will of my Creator is sovereignly efficacious. You seem to believe that the very Will of the most powerful being, God Himself, is subject to one of His creations, namely you. You seem to believe that it is the desire of God that none should perish but that either God is so impotent that He can't even ensure His own Will is manifested, or, that it is out of love that God would leave someone He supposedly loves to burn in Hell. That is not loving to me. I am a parent. Even though I am not sovereign, even in my own household, I desire only the best for my children and family.
If I was sovereign I would ensure that they be the recipient of my love. I don't consider it loving to leave my children to their own devices when speaking of matters of life and death. Would you consider it loving for me to allow my children to play in the street if I knew it would result in their death just because that's what they wanted to do? Of course not. You'd expect me to do whatever I had to do to
make sure my children were safe, even if that meant exerting my dominant will over them and telling them to get out of the street, even if that meant physically bringing them out of danger. Yet you seem to regard it as a loving action that God, who is suppose to love you so much, would leave the determination of your eternal disposition up to you. It amazes me that you, or anyone, takes issue with this. How comforting it is to me, and others who share my views, to know that though I was God's enemy He had mercy on me when I was yet His enemy and sovereignly ensured that I was His child. You seem as if it would be better if God just said, "Okay,...you
can be saved but I'm not going to make sure you are. I'll leave it up to you." Give me a break. If God loved you so much He would providentially make sure you are going to be His child and the recipient of His grace even though you are rebellious. Your theological viewpoint removes all sovereignty from God, makes His Will subject to yours, and gives you the credit for your specific salvation. According to your position, all Jesus' death actually did for you was give you an
opportunity to be saved. It didn't actually save
you. You salvation was the result of
your choice. Tell me how that glorifies the sovereignty of God. It doesn't. It puts
all the emphasis on
your choice. Then you get into issues of keeping your salvation. According to you, you choose to be saved. According to your position, you also choose to remain saved. You are able to determine if you are saved, and you are able to determine if you stay saved. It's by
your choice. It's not about God at all. Oh sure...He gave you an opportunity, but He didn't actually save you. According to you, Jesus had to be killed so that you could have the opportunity. Jesus wants every single person to be saved but some aren't. How sovereign is that? Not at all.
If God is in total control, then why do you sin?
I sin because, at times, God removes His restraining grace and I naturally respond in an ungodly way. You see, I understand what kind of a lowly, wretched thing I am. I understand that "but for the grace of God, there go I." I understand that it is only His restraining hand, because He loves me, that I am able to
not sin sometimes. I give God
all the credit for any righteous thing I am able to do. You put the emphasis on your own ability to be obedient.
" , then why do you pray?
Prayer is one method/tool that God uses to conform me to the image of His Son. It is my own way of acknowledging my
total dependence on God for all things.
" , then why bother witnessing to people?
"Witnessing" is just another tool the Lord uses to bring His chosen to a knowledge of Himself. We do not lead anyone to God. God leads all of His elect to Himself. He will not lose anyone. If someone dies without being saved they weren't meant to be saved. As I said, God doesn't work on chances.
God says Listen to me over and over, giving warnings about bad things to come if you don't, and blessings to come if you do. Why would He give us the Word?
He gave it to us so that we would know what we are supposed to do to please Him. If there was no Law then you and I couldn't be responsible for breaking that Law, could we. The Law wasn't given to save us. It was given to condemn us. It's just like a speed limit sign. The speed limit sign cannot keep you from breaking the law of speeding. It can
only convict you when you do transgress that law.
Do you believe that every single decision we make is under God's control?
I believe everything that has ever happened is part of God's plan. I believe God sovereignly controls every aspect of His plan. You put two and two together. What do you think I believe. I'm sure you are going to come back with responses about how if God is in charge of all of our decisions how can we be held responsible for sinning. The point is, I don't completely understand God. But, that's a good thing. How imperfect would God be if I could understand everything about Him? There is so much proof of what I believe but the biggest proof is what I've encountered numerous times on this MB. I cannot make you understand anything. You cannot make yourself understand anything. Only God can give you the grace and enlighten you about His Will. So, for me to continue to try and intellectually persuade you to understand is very persumptuous on my part. It may not be God's Will at this time that you understand.
God bless
By the way... it was Mary's free choice. Mwa ha ha ha ha! j/k
