Prayers for the "dead"

[linssue55]

these are some interesting verses, however, you are misunderstanding the nature of prayers for the dead in those communions who make these prayers. the prayers are not for the purpose of changing someone's state from heaven to hell, prayers are only made for those who are already believers and whose souls have departed their bodies to glory. prayers for the dead cannot be understood to change the eternal state of the soul.
i personally don't pray for the dead, but if we are to discuss it, it's necessary to have a clear understanding of what the belief/practice actually is.
just a small piece of logic,
1. Prayers are to be made for all saints.
2. The righteous who have departed this life are also called saints, as well as believers in this life.
3. therefore, prayers are to be made for the righteous who have departed this life.
i'm just interested to see if there is any actual or implied Scriptural command not to pray for the departed.
another piece of logic, (it goes both ways. ).
1. When we die we go either to eternal life or eternal death.
2. our eternal state is fixed and cannot be changed by prayers or otherwise.
3. therefore, prayers for the dead do not change their eternal state.
the problem with that is, as i said, prayers for the dead are not for a change in their eternal state, but rather for an increase in their communion with God, as we would ask for living believers.

People that are dead are either in heaven or hell. The dead believers NEED for nothing........the unbelievers no one can help. I posted the 5 things....did you not understand their meanings? they are self explanitory. It does "NO GOOD....WHATSOEVER" to pray for the dead for ANY REASON.. IE: our prayers go no higher than the ceiling.

 

[PaladinValer]

When do we go to heaven? We must be Judged worthy of it. When are we Judged? On the Last Day.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that hasn't occurred yet.

While it is true that sheol and heaven are out outside of time, we are ourselves in it. Thus, while in the experience of those there, it is thousands of years in the future in the snape of our fingers, it is still just a snape of our fingers for us. Thus, they are still there in sheol right now; it is simply that they preceive time differently than we do.

So unless Jesus comes again and there is the Resurrection, they are in sheol. Then they (and those still alive on Earth) will be Judged and then all will experience heaven or hell based on Christ's Judgment.

So not only is zipping right off to heaven or hell erronous, but the entire the "time" argument as well.

 

[BarbB]

....
When do we go to heaven? We must be Judged worthy of it. When are we Judged? On the Last Day.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that hasn't occurred yet.
.....

Well, scripture seems to refute your opinion. When we are saved, we are judged worthy of heaven. Those judged on the Last Day are those who will be judged by their deeds which, sadly but inevitably, are not "good enough" to warrant heaven. We warrant heaven by the blood of Jesus! We get to go right away after we die!

2CO 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. [7] We live by faith, not by sight. [8] We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. [9] So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. [10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Judgment seat of Christ is NOT the great white throne judgment.

 

[PaladinValer]

Well, scripture seems to refute your opinion. When we are saved, we are judged worthy of heaven.

By the Protestant notion of saved? No.

By the Apostolic notion of saved? Still no!

Just because you've been Baptized doesn't mean you're automatically got a one-way ticket to heaven. You must endure to the end, even if that end is only seconds away.

Those judged on the Last Day are those who will be judged by their deeds which, sadly but inevitably, are not "good enough" to warrant heaven. We warrant heaven by the blood of Jesus! We get to go right away after we die!

This isn't the ancient Christian belief. This isn't even what the Reformers believed in. This is modern pop theology.

Judgment seat of Christ is NOT the great white throne judgment.

Chiliasm is incorrect, remember?

 

[BarbB]

By the Protestant notion of saved? No.

By the Apostolic notion of saved? Still no!

Just because you've been Baptized doesn't mean you're automatically got a one-way ticket to heaven. You must endure to the end, even if that end is only seconds away.



This isn't the ancient Christian belief. This isn't even what the Reformers believed in. This is modern pop theology.



Chiliasm is incorrect, remember?

PV you may have a theological education, know all the words, the heresies, but your posts show little else. May the Lord Jesus Christ bestow his Holy Spirit on you that you might understand.

 

[A New Dawn]

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[Athanasian Creed]

By the Protestant notion of saved? No.

By the Apostolic notion of saved? Still no!

Just because you've been Baptized doesn't mean you're automatically got a one-way ticket to heaven. You must endure to the end, even if that end is only seconds away.

I believe the Scriptures teach initial and final salvation. We have been, are being and will be saved IF, as Scripture says, we endure in Christ and His word till the end overcoming the world, the flesh and the devil.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(final salvation)

Revelation 2:17 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches; To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except him who receives it.

Revelation 3:12 He that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto death.

This isn't the ancient Christian belief. This isn't even what the Reformers believed in. This is modern pop theology.

Revelation 20:11-12 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the White Throne judgment of which 'BarbB' was referring.

As to the Bema (Judgment) Seat of Christ -

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that everyone may be recompensed for the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

And to being in the presence of the Lord upon physically dying -

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Chiliasm is incorrect, remember?

What does Chiliasm have to do with the 2 judgments mentioned in Scripture??



Ray

 

[Aziza01]

When do we go to heaven? We must be Judged worthy of it. When are we Judged? On the Last Day.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that hasn't occurred yet.

While it is true that sheol and heaven are out outside of time, we are ourselves in it. Thus, while in the experience of those there, it is thousands of years in the future in the snape of our fingers, it is still just a snape of our fingers for us. Thus, they are still there in sheol right now; it is simply that they preceive time differently than we do.

What support to do have for this opinion?

 

[DeaconDean]

Prayers for the dead go no higher than the ceiling.

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." -Ecc. 9:10

Without stepping on any toes, the Catholic belief of Praying to/for the dead goes to the fact that like the Virgin Mary, because she was blessed above all other women and has Jesus' ear (so to speak), praying through her will get the Lord's attention a little quicker than if we were to pray to the Lord ourselves.

There was some wisdom showed earlier. When you die, either your saved or your not. It's as simple as that. Jesus taught that the rich man woke up in hell being in torments, while Lazarus was being comforted by Abraham. We've been told I don't know how many times by those of the Catholic faith that this is a parable and can not be used. Well then, Jesus told the thief on the cross that "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:43

Jesus did not say tomorrow you will be with me in paradise, but To day you will be with me in paradise. My Bible also tells me:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" -Heb. 9:27

The thief on the cross simply expressed a belief in the Savior and was promised that "To day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

As Paladin Valer said:

We must be Judged worthy of it. When are we Judged? On the Last Day.

Was the repentant thief judged worthy after he died or before?

Immediantly after Jesus gave up the ghost, my Bible tells me that:

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;" -Matt. 27:51

This tells me that the veil which separated man from God was done away with when Jesus was crucified for our sins. No longer do we have to go through a priest to have our prayers and petitions taken to God. With the veil gone, we can take our needs to the Lord ourselves. Prayers to the dead do not, IMHO, help. Prayers for the dead are no good because they had their chance while on earth and are beyond all that.

If you subscribe to praying to/for the dead, God Bless you. But what I don't understand, what I don't get is, why is their intervention for us, or our intervention for them is better than that of Jesus? Why is Mary's intervention on our behalf better than that of Jesus who:

"...we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" -1 John 2:1

When I sin, or make a mistake, or step on somebodies toes, who is up in heaven:

"...the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." -Rom. 8:26

Who stands up for me when I fail and come short of God's glory and says "Father visit not your wrath on this child of mine." Mary? Peter? Stephen? My departed grand father? Only Jesus Christ, my Savior!

Why do I have to go through Mary to get my prayers to God when Jesus:

"..Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." -Col. 3:1

Who better has the ear of God than Jesus Christ?

Nope, I just don't get it.

 

[Flynmonkie]

DD,

I couldn’t agree with you more. There is nothing more important than to know Gods promises. If you do not feel that assurance of what happens when you die, pray, ask God to tell you.

This is bigger than any dialog on a message board. It is not about who is right or wrong, it is about having that full intimate relationship with God, your father through Christ that does not lie. The dead know not anything. As a true faithful Christian these things are not for us to worry about. You simply cannot do anything about others walks, only your own. You can pray while they are alive that they too can have that relationship, but ultimately it is their choice, or not. But once they make that choice, and they choose not, as DeaconDean has explained, it is finished. This is the reason we pray for others, we lift up our voices in prayer and become a living witness to teach others of graciousness of our father.


"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." Ephesians 1:13

This seems very clear!

"The wicked is thrust down by his wrongdoing, but the righteous has a refuge when he dies."
Proverbs 14:32

"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace."
Romans 8:6

So if you have your mind set on the Spirit we are assured life eternal. You have a refuge when you die. Without holding on to those assurances, what kind of relationship, what kind of covenant fused with the blood of Christ would that be?

 

[linssue55]

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." -Ecc. 9:10

Without stepping on any toes, the Catholic belief of Praying to/for the dead goes to the fact that like the Virgin Mary, because she was blessed above all other women and has Jesus' ear (so to speak), praying through her will get the Lord's attention a little quicker than if we were to pray to the Lord ourselves.

There was some wisdom showed earlier. When you die, either your saved or your not. It's as simple as that. Jesus taught that the rich man woke up in hell being in torments, while Lazarus was being comforted by Abraham. We've been told I don't know how many times by those of the Catholic faith that this is a parable and can not be used. Well then, Jesus told the thief on the cross that "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." -Luke 23:43

Jesus did not say tomorrow you will be with me in paradise, but To day you will be with me in paradise. My Bible also tells me:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" -Heb. 9:27

The thief on the cross simply expressed a belief in the Savior and was promised that "To day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

As Paladin Valer said:



Was the repentant theif judged worthy after he died or before?

Immediantly after Jesus gave up the ghost, my Bible tells me that:

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;" -Matt. 27:51

This tells me that the veil which separated man from God was done away with when Jesus was crucified for our sins. No longer do we have to go through a priest to have our prayers and petitions taken to God. With the veil gone, we can take our needs to the Lord ourselves. Prayers to the dead do not, IMHO, help. Prayers for the dead are no good because they had their chance while on earth and are beyond all that.

If you subscribe to praying to/for the dead, God Bless you. But what I don't understand, what I don't get is, why is their intervention for us, or our intervention for them is better than that of Jesus? Why is Mary's intervention on our behalf better than that of Jesus who:

"...we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" -1 John 2:1

Why do I have to go through Mary when Jesus:

"..Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." -Col. 3:1

Who better has the ear of God than Jesus Christ?

Nope, I just don't get it.

You are absolutely correct and I will stick to scripture that I know is true, that is does no good to pray for the dead. They had their chance. There is nothing ANY of us can do for them now. You made the comment "I just don't get it. Oh yes you do....you stick with your doctrines because you are right on the mark. The catholics may say this or say that...but we will stick to what we believe we know is the truth of scripture.

 

[LambiePie]

I thought we had ONE intercessor with the Father and that was Jesus Christ?

(I can't find the scripture now - have NIV on my computer and it's not what I read day to day )

 

[linssue55]

I thought we had ONE intercessor with the Father and that was Jesus Christ?

(I can't find the scripture now - have NIV on my computer and it's not what I read day to day )

Is it any of these?.....



Intercession Prayers:....

By Jesus.......
Heb 7:25....Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.



Special Intercession by God the Holy Spirit....
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groaning's which cannot be uttered;



Intercession by Believers...........
8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Eph 3:14
For this reason I kneel before the Father of the name the Lord Jesus Christ, (Jesus Great High Priest Intercession).

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1Tim 2:5)




matthew 6:6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

matthew 26:53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

luke 11:2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

john 16:26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

acts 8:24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

luke 16:27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

john 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

1 Corinthians 11:13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

2 Corinthians 13:7Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates

genesis 20:17So Abraham prayed unto God: and God healed Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children.

deuteronomy 9:26I prayed therefore unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, destroy not thy people and thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed through thy greatness, which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

1 samuel 1:10And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the LORD, and wept sore.

acts 10:2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Psalm 39:12Hear my prayer, O LORD, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

Psalm 54:2Hear my prayer, O God; give ear to the words of my mouth.

Psalm 61:1To the chief Musician upon Neginah, A Psalm of David. Hear my cry, O God; attend unto my prayer.

Psalm 64:1To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy

Psalm 69:13But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation.

Psalm 86:6Give ear, O LORD, unto my prayer; and attend to the voice of my supplications.

Psalm 84:8O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer: give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah.

daniel 9:17Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

luke 6:12And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.

romans 15:30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

 

[LambiePie]

Thank you so much, linssue! This is the one I was thinking of. I even went through my notes - I had just read the Timothys!

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" (1Tim 2:5)

Mediator - what a wonderful word - stronger than intercessor!

 

[DeaconDean]

Personally I like the word "advocate." Who is my lawyer up in heaven? Jesus Christ my personal advocate. But mediator works as well. God Bless you for that point.

 

[lmnop9876]

You are absolutely correct and I will stick to scripture that I know is true, that is does no good to pray for the dead. They had their chance. There is nothing ANY of us can do for them now. You made the comment "I just don't get it. Oh yes you do....you stick with your doctrines because you are right on the mark. The catholics may say this or say that...but we will stick to what we believe we know is the truth of scripture.

the point is not whether they had their chance on earth or not, that's irrelevant. it is completely useless to pray for someone in hell, you cannot change the fact that they have damned themselves to eternal punishment.
the question is, is it completely useless to pray for those who have died and are in the presence of God? do our prayers help them to grow in their communion with God, or not? are they included in the "all saints" that we are commanded to pray for, or not? is there Scripture that says that they aren't, or not? is it possible for believers who have died to grow in their communion with God? these are the important questions.

 

[DeaconDean]

Friend, your missing the point here. They are already in the presence of God and their Savior, what else do they need? How can our prayers help them get closer to God than they already are? They are already worshiping and praising the one who died for them. God has already wiped the tears from their eyes, they are already worshiping at His feet, how can our prayers help them in their communion with Him? I honestly believe that the prayers for the saints are for those of us who are still here, trapped in this mortal flesh. Us, who are still waiting to do what those who have gone on are now doing. They are in His presence where we wish we could be, how can they get any closer? What are they in need of?????????????????

I said it before, I'll say it again, I just don't get it.


pjw,I must ask this question, do you or are you, one who subscribes to Orthodox Theology? Their are mainly two groups of people who support prayer to/for the dead. Those who practice TAW, (Orthodoxy) and those who practice Catholicism. It is becoming obvious that you support one of the two, which one is it? I have tried to answer from a Baptist perspective, what we as Baptist believe. It is obvious that that is not your viewpoint. No matter how clear we try to make it, no matter how much scripture we post to support our position, it is not accepted. So just judging from your question and your viewpoint, are you Orthodox or Catholic? If it is either one, then tell me and I'll butt out of this thread because no matter what I say or show, it will not be accepted. So if I'm beating my head against a wall, just tell me.

 

[LambiePie]

....
the question is, is it completely useless to pray for those who have died and are in the presence of God? do our prayers help them to grow in their communion with God, or not? are they included in the "all saints" that we are commanded to pray for, or not? is there Scripture that says that they aren't, or not? is it possible for believers who have died to grow in their communion with God? these are the important questions.

I'm wondering - is this the verse you're talking of:

Ephesians 6:18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

It's the final verse about the armor of God! In this context where it's speaking about the tribulations a believer must go through and can overcome with the use of the armor of God - surely it's speaking of the live saints who are being persecuted?

The dead saints are just that - dead. They are with Jesus and in the place of the Glory of God. How much better can it get. As for improving their position with God, I have no idea how it'll work in heaven for getting promotions - there are no verses about that!

So, let's begin storing up our riches in heaven so that when we come to glory we can be in the perfect place for our reward and abilities!

 

[Knee V]

Would you agree that God, by virtue of being Uncreated and being Who He is, is infinite?
Would you agree that man, by virtue of being created, is finite?

If so, then how can we EVER, in ALL ETERNITY, get to a point that is "as good as it gets"? If we finite creatures are in a relationship with an infinite God, how can that ever be static? How can that NOT be dynamic? How can we ever approach and reach infinity? If God is infinite and we are finite, then we MUST grow in our relationship with God in eternity. Otherwise there will be introduced more persons into the Godhead, for only He Who is Uncreated and Infinite can ever be Unchanging.

 

[Jipsah]

It should be clarified that prayers for the dead can not save anyone.

Prayers can't save anyone. Prayers aren't magic incantations that have power of their own, they're requests that we make of God, which He either grants or does not. If there's any saving to be done, God does it, quite without our "help".

At death, one is either saved or not.

That might be true if God was bound in time as we are, but He is not. He can hear a prayer made today and grant it last year (or last century, or last millennium) if He's so inclined. Let's not place artificial limits on God.