Prayer....

[ThievingMagpie]

And yet, I see everyday americans discussions on economic policy here, referred back to the bible....

Well christian citizens are free to draw opinions and inform their political decisions from the bible, but that's a lot different from Government doing so.

 

[zephcom]

YOU cant say "Lord, do the washing up" for example. But prayer created a mindset one takes to the social world.

Anything can create a mindset one takes to the social world. That is why there is no difference between prayer and "You talkin' to me?"

 

[Holoman]

I don't really understand when people say "prayer doesn't work". It's as if they think praying is just us contacting God with a shopping list of demands. Prayer is a conversation with the creator. If you ask for something, maybe you'll get it, maybe you wont. Jesus repeatedly prayed to God before he was crucified asking to be spared the horrific punishment. But the important part is at the end of the prayer.

"...nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

His prayer was answered but not as he'd hoped. God's will was for him to die.

 

[Allandavid]

I don't really understand when people say "prayer doesn't work". It's as if they think praying is just us contacting God with a shopping list of demands. Prayer is a conversation with the creator. If you ask for something, maybe you'll get it, maybe you wont. Jesus repeatedly prayed to God before he was crucified asking to be spared the horrific punishment. But the important part is at the end of the prayer.

"...nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

His prayer was answered but not as he'd hoped. God's will was for him to die.

From that description, one can conclude that there is no apparent difference between prayer ‘working’ and not working...

 

[Dave-W]

From that description, one can conclude that there is no apparent difference between prayer ‘working’ and not working...

My kids when they were small often asked for ridiculous things for me to get for them.

"asking dad does not work."

But if they asked for something they really needed, or was not ridiculous, I would get it for them.

"asking dad works."

Which is correct?

The whole "prayer works" or "prayer does not work" debate leaves out a very important point: at the other end of the communication is a sentient Being who can decide if what is being asked for is legitimate and proper or not, and if this is the right time or not.

That defies quantification.

 

[zephcom]

I don't really understand when people say "prayer doesn't work". It's as if they think praying is just us contacting God with a shopping list of demands. Prayer is a conversation with the creator. If you ask for something, maybe you'll get it, maybe you wont. Jesus repeatedly prayed to God before he was crucified asking to be spared the horrific punishment. But the important part is at the end of the prayer.

"...nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

His prayer was answered but not as he'd hoped. God's will was for him to die.

What you describe is exactly what happens when one rolls dice...maybe you will get snake-eyes or maybe you won't. You could pray to RA and maybe you will get what you ask for and maybe you won't.

The events which happen in your life will happen whether you pray or don't pray.

 

[zephcom]

My kids when they were small often asked for ridiculous things for me to get for them.

"asking dad does not work."

But if they asked for something they really needed, or was not ridiculous, I would get it for them.

"asking dad works."

Which is correct?

The whole "prayer works" or "prayer does not work" debate leaves out a very important point: at the other end of the communication is a sentient Being who can decide if what is being asked for is legitimate and proper or not, and if this is the right time or not.

That defies quantification.

The one thing you overlook is that 'dad' is available to provide reasons why the children either get what they want or don't get it.

Your 'sentient Being' does not provide any feed back on the requests. The requested item either shows up or it doesn't. That is identical to just waiting for chance to occur.

 

[Dave-W]

Your 'sentient Being' does not provide any feed back on the requests.

Hebrews 3:15
while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [rhema = a spoken word] of God.​

If you are not hearing from God when you pray, something is wrong.

 

[zephcom]

Hebrews 3:15
while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [rhema = a spoken word] of God.​

If you are not hearing from God when you pray, something is wrong.

I had a similar conversation with a friend of mine. I finally told him that just because he heard voices in his head, it didn't mean they came from God. Instantly he responded by saying "Yes it does".

I'm not aware of any scientific way that anyone can determine which voice, if any, is God's.

My friend...who is an otherwise really wonderful person...had really bad teeth and had them pulled. He told everyone that the 'Holy Spirit' told him that if he would get his teeth pulled that God would grow him new teeth made out of gold. When his friends all offered to buy him dentures until that happened he turned them down because he didn't want to show any doubts about the 'Holy Spirit'.

That has been something like five or six years now and he still insists his gold teeth and on the way.

IMMHO, one HAS to be able to sort out the voices and be able to accurately identify God before they go around telling people that if they are not 'hearing from God when they pray, something is wrong'. I suspect that NOT hearing voices in one's head is the real 'normal'.

 

[Dave-W]

I'm not aware of any scientific way that anyone can determine which voice, if any, is God's.

There isn't. And that is intentional.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Having "scientific" proof or determination is not faith.

I finally told him that just because he heard voices in his head, it didn't mean they came from God. Instantly he responded by saying "Yes it does".

I am with you on that one. Your friend lacks a basic discernment. Our Lord said "My sheep know my voice." Your friend lacks that basic understanding. That is (spiritually) a very dangerous place to be in.

 

[Holoman]

What you describe is exactly what happens when one rolls dice...maybe you will get snake-eyes or maybe you won't. You could pray to RA and maybe you will get what you ask for and maybe you won't.

The events which happen in your life will happen whether you pray or don't pray.

There again, you assume prayer is just asking for things. If you go in with that attitude it's no wonder you get nowhere.

The events in your life can definitely be affected by prayer. There are plenty of things I have done only because of prayer.

 

[Dave-W]

IMMHO, one HAS to be able to sort out the voices and be able to accurately identify God before they go around telling people that if they are not 'hearing from God when they pray, something is wrong'. I suspect that NOT hearing voices in one's head is the real 'normal'.

Of course. Sorting the "voices" is of utmost importance:

John 10:2 But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

This speaks to that directly. There will be (and are) stranger voices that are NOT from God. Those are to be dismissed and ignored.

Hearing God should be normal. But that often gets buried in bad theology, (such as God does not speak today) or the secular idea that hearing "voices" is indicative of mental issues.

The fact is that God is a Father and wants 2 way communication with his kids.

 

[zephcom]

There isn't. And that is intentional.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Having "scientific" proof or determination is not faith.

I am with you on that one. Your friend lacks a basic discernment. Our Lord said "My sheep know my voice." Your friend lacks that basic understanding. That is (spiritually) a very dangerous place to be in.

And that is the primary problem. Faith without any evidence leads to just confusion. I could get you and my friend together in a room and neither of you would be able to convince the other that -they- are the one without discernment.

And why is that?? Because both you and he are convinced of your own superiority in this matter. You both deeply want to believe that God is talking to you.

And for both of you, I am happy with the voices in your head telling you things as long as the voices aren't telling you to harm others. But you should be aware that normal people don't hear voices in their heads. And telling them they are not communicating with God unless they DO hear voices is something that people are just going to chalk it up to yet another religious nut job. (no personal insult intended, just my opinion of how others would view the situation)

And that is especially true when you tell people there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to demonstrate that it is actually God unless you have 'faith' in something that can't even be shown to exist.

Imagine how people would view me if I told them Unicorns existed and there was one standing right next to them. And then told them they wouldn't be able to see the unicorn unless they had the same 'faith' I have in their existence. It creates the situation where -I- become smug and superior when I keep on saying, "Don't see the unicorn?? You don't have the same 'faith' I have. As soon as you see the unicorn, THEN we are equals."

 

[zephcom]

There again, you assume prayer is just asking for things. If you go in with that attitude it's no wonder you get nowhere.

The events in your life can definitely be affected by prayer. There are plenty of things I have done only because of prayer.

Life is linear. You have no idea what your future holds. So when you end up doing something which you feel is 'affected' by prayer you hold that is evidence that prayer works even if the situation falls well within the probabilities of chance.

In the scientific arena, it is called the placebo effect. Something like thirty percent of people who take a 'medicine', even if the medicine is just a sugar pill, respond positively to the treatment. Before any medicine is approved it HAS to show it is more effective than a sugar pills.

Coincidences happen. They don't support the effectiveness of prayer unless they can be shown to be more effective than chance.

 

[Dave-W]

And for both of you, I am happy with the voices in your head telling you things as long as the voices aren't telling you to harm others. But you should be aware that normal people don't hear voices in their heads. And telling them they are not communicating with God unless they DO hear voices is something that people are just going to chalk it up to yet another religious nut job. (no personal insult intended, just my opinion of how others would view the situation)

No insult taken. I fully understand that the unsaved (majority) do not normally hear God.

Back in the 1980s I worked in the engineering dept of a major corporation as a draftsman detailer. One day our team was kind of slow but another team was really buried under work so I was lent to them for a couple of weeks. I was assigned to a senior design engineer named Tom. I knew absolutely nothing about him at all. But when I went to his desk to introduce myself, God gave me a message for him. It was pretty out there. But I said it anyway.

God told me to tell you if you do not stop what you are doing, your wife is going to divorce you.​

I did not even know if he was married. He just scowled at me for a few seconds and then started explaining the work I was doing for him. We did not speak of it again. About a year later the plant closed. But I ran into him in a church I was visiting in another city. He told me that he was sorry for blowing off what I said, that he indeed knew he needed to stop something but did not. So about the time the plant closed, he was served with divorce papers.

He had gotten moved to the corporate head quarters (my home town) and ended up in a church that my step dad had helped to start. The pastor and my step dad both prayed for and with him there.

The next time I visited home I heard the story from the pastor and my step dad.

So you still think this is only my imagination? Some "religious nutjob?"

 

[zephcom]

No insult taken. I fully understand that the unsaved (majority) do not normally hear God.

Back in the 1980s I worked in the engineering dept of a major corporation as a draftsman detailer. One day our team was kind of slow but another team was really buried under work so I was lent to them for a couple of weeks. I was assigned to a senior design engineer named Tom. I knew absolutely nothing about him at all. But when I went to his desk to introduce myself, God gave me a message for him. It was pretty out there. But I said it anyway.

God told me to tell you if you do not stop what you are doing, your wife is going to divorce you.​

I did not even know if he was married. He just scowled at me for a few seconds and then started explaining the work I was doing for him. We did not speak of it again. About a year later the plant closed. But I ran into him in a church I was visiting in another city. He told me that he was sorry for blowing off what I said, that he indeed knew he needed to stop something but did not. So about the time the plant closed, he was served with divorce papers.

He had gotten moved to the corporate head quarters (my home town) and ended up in a church that my step dad had helped to start. The pastor and my step dad both prayed for and with him there.

The next time I visited home I heard the story from the pastor and my step dad.

So you still think this is only my imagination? Some "religious nutjob?"

It is certainly within the realm of chance. With the divorce rate at about fifty percent in America, you stand a fifty/fifty chance of getting it right if you walk up to anyone you don't know and say the same thing.

I could flip a coin and call heads while was in the air and when it landed heads up I could say, "God told me to say that."

Now, if you told me that you walked up to one hundred random people and told them exactly the same thing and ALL of them reported they were on the verge of divorce without error, you would be on much safer ground claiming divine knowledge.

 

[Holoman]

Life is linear. You have no idea what your future holds. So when you end up doing something which you feel is 'affected' by prayer you hold that is evidence that prayer works even if the situation falls well within the probabilities of chance.

You repeatedly hold to this view that "prayer works" or "prayer doesn't work." Prayer is a conversation, not a list of demands. When I say prayer has made a difference in my life, I'm not offering that as evidence in some argument, it's just an autobiographical statement. The evidence is for who it was intended i.e. me.

I see you're a deist. Let me ask you, do you believe that an immensely powerful being created a universe with such unbelievable fine tuning that life would inevitably appear and flourish inside it? And if so, you believe this powerful being just did this and then never bothered himself with it again?

 

[zephcom]

You repeatedly hold to this view that "prayer works" or "prayer doesn't work." Prayer is a conversation, not a list of demands. When I say prayer has made a difference in my life, I'm not offering that as evidence in some argument, it's just an autobiographical statement. The evidence is for who it was intended i.e. me.

I see you're a deist. Let me ask you, do you believe that an immensely powerful being created a universe with such unbelievable fine tuning that life would inevitably appear and flourish inside it? And if so, you believe this powerful being just did this and then never bothered himself with it again?

First off, about prayer. If you feel prayer has made a difference in your life, I'm happy for you. But that alone does not make prayer a universal benefit.

There are people who will take a sugar pill and get well because they were told the pill was real medicine. One can not extrapolate that and say everyone will get well if they take a sugar pill. If you are happy praying, don't let me talk you out of praying.

About my Deism. I believe there is a God...with a capital G. I don't presume to know what magnificent things God has done. That is because I don't believe God is trying to communicate with us and we are just too dense to understand.

By the definition of God, God would be able to communicate with us in a manner in which we would never have any doubt it was God. Given that, I find all the various religions and religious books to be just mankind's attempt to understand why we are here and capable of understanding that we are here. None of them represent any effort by God to communicate.

I, personally, like the teachings of Jesus. The teachings resonate with me and I would feel that way regardless of who taught them. I don't pretend that Jesus was anything more than an itinerant preacher with a small following. I see His teachings reaching for a higher level of spirituality than the level of spirituality taught in the Jewish tradition.

I am not frustrated by God not contacting us. I think we are here in the physical realm to learn and grow. This is not a lecture class. It is an opportunity to learn from experience. Some choose to learn and grow. Some choose not to.

Their choices do not reflect on me. But after seven decades of living, I feel that Jesus' teachings...those teachings in direct quotes...point the way to learning and growing.

 

[Holoman]

First off, about prayer. If you feel prayer has made a difference in your life, I'm happy for you. But that alone does not make prayer a universal benefit.

There are people who will take a sugar pill and get well because they were told the pill was real medicine. One can not extrapolate that and say everyone will get well if they take a sugar pill. If you are happy praying, don't let me talk you out of praying.

About my Deism. I believe there is a God...with a capital G. I don't presume to know what magnificent things God has done. That is because I don't believe God is trying to communicate with us and we are just too dense to understand.

By the definition of God, God would be able to communicate with us in a manner in which we would never have any doubt it was God.

Right, and people here are claiming to have that communication.

Why would God go to the trouble of making the universe and us in it and then never bother to contact us?

Given that, I find all the various religions and religious books to be just mankind's attempt to understand why we are here and capable of understanding that we are here. None of them represent any effort by God to communicate.

I, personally, like the teachings of Jesus. The teachings resonate with me and I would feel that way regardless of who taught them. I don't pretend that Jesus was anything more than an itinerant preacher with a small following. I see His teachings reaching for a higher level of spirituality than the level of spirituality taught in the Jewish tradition.

I am not frustrated by God not contacting us. I think we are here in the physical realm to learn and grow. This is not a lecture class. It is an opportunity to learn from experience. Some choose to learn and grow. Some choose not to.

Their choices do not reflect on me. But after seven decades of living, I feel that Jesus' teachings...those teachings in direct quotes...point the way to learning and growing.

OK but Jesus taught a lot of controversial things as well, and he prayed a lot. If you take the Father out of his teachings there seems to be little left.

 

[zephcom]

Right, and people here are claiming to have that communication.

Why would God go to the trouble of making the universe and us in it and then never bother to contact us?



OK but Jesus taught a lot of controversial things as well, and he prayed a lot. If you take the Father out of his teachings there seems to be little left.

Okay. People claim to have that communication. Does that mean I'm required to accept their claims as fact?

Why would God bother to contact us? When one looks at the universe...just the parts of the universe we can actually see...one can only wonder at the arrogance of those who think they are so important that all of it was created just for them and that God would just naturally WANT to communicate with us.

Not only did Jesus pray, He even taught followers how to pray. That teaching is found in Matthew 6:5-15:

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

I've talked to a lot of people who claim that God talks to them and they generally argue that Jesus' teachings here don't apply to them because 'they' are not hypocrites. The idea of what is hypocritical appears to fly right by them.