Prayer....

[Holoman]

Okay. People claim to have that communication. Does that mean I'm required to accept their claims as fact?

No, but why not try it for yourself and sincerely be open to an answer? And I don't mean once, I mean consistently.

Why would God bother to contact us? When one looks at the universe...just the parts of the universe we can actually see...one can only wonder at the arrogance of those who think they are so important that all of it was created just for them and that God would just naturally WANT to communicate with us.

Not only did Jesus pray, He even taught followers how to pray. That teaching is found in Matthew 6:5-15:

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’

I've talked to a lot of people who claim that God talks to them and they generally argue that Jesus' teachings here don't apply to them because 'they' are not hypocrites. The idea of what is hypocritical appears to fly right by them.

The point Jesus is making here is don't pray just to be seen to be praying. Not sure what it has to do with hearing God.

 

[zephcom]

No, but why not try it for yourself and sincerely be open to an answer? And I don't mean once, I mean consistently.



The point Jesus is making here is don't pray just to be seen to be praying. Not sure what it has to do with hearing God.

Are you assuming I haven't tried getting an answer??? I've always been willing to have God 'talk' to me. He knows where to find me. He is a big boy and I don't need to beg Him to talk to me.

I sometimes think the pressure being put on people to have God 'talk' to them is so great that people just make things up so they can appear to one of the 'chosen'. The ball has always been in God's side of the court. He can pick it up anytime He wants.

Actually the point of the passage is to NEVER to be seen praying because people will think you are like the hypocrites. Perhaps the reason why prayer doesn't work is because that teaching of Jesus is widely and flagrantly disobeyed.

 

[Holoman]

Are you assuming I haven't tried getting an answer??? I've always been willing to have God 'talk' to me. He knows where to find me. He is a big boy and I don't need to beg Him to talk to me.

I sometimes think the pressure being put on people to have God 'talk' to them is so great that people just make things up so they can appear to one of the 'chosen'. The ball has always been in God's side of the court. He can pick it up anytime He wants.

I've never really felt any pressure. God has never spoken to me like some people seem to suggest. It is far more subtle.

From what you said of the arrogance of humans, you seem to think you aren't worth the Creator talking to. Why?

Actually the point of the passage is to NEVER to be seen praying because people will think you are like the hypocrites. Perhaps the reason why prayer doesn't work is because that teaching of Jesus is widely and flagrantly disobeyed.

No that isn't Jesus' point. He is talking about the hypocrites that pray to be seen praying, and warning people not to do the same thing. It is not talking about what other people might think of you, which I don't think he ever concerned himself with. Praying in public is perfectly fine if done properly, for example as part of a service.

 

[zephcom]

I've never really felt any pressure. God has never spoken to me like some people seem to suggest. It is far more subtle.

From what you said of the arrogance of humans, you seem to think you aren't worth the Creator talking to. Why?



No that isn't Jesus' point. He is talking about the hypocrites that pray to be seen praying, and warning people not to do the same thing. It is not talking about what other people might think of you, which I don't think he ever concerned himself with. Praying in public is perfectly fine if done properly, for example as part of a service.

Far more subtle?? You mean like a feeling that you should do something? How do you authenticate that whatever that subtle something is is actually God and not just the way your brain works?

Because the 'Creator' doesn't talk to me??? Let's look a bit more closely to the situation. If God has the majesty to be the creator of the universe the relative difference between us and Him is magnitudes greater than the difference between us and a slug. Do you carry on conversations with slugs?

I'm just being realistic here without diminishing the place humanity has carved out on just one of the uncountable planets in existence within the universe. It IS arrogance to think that the Creator of the Universe WANTS to talk to us and just can't figure out how to.

Actually, it IS the point of Jesus' teaching on pray. Look at the first verse:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

The words 'do not' just don't give any room for options. The next sentence makes it clear that if you do pray where you are seen by others, the ONLY thing you can expect is the ego gratification of being seen by others.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well christian citizens are free to draw opinions and inform their political decisions from the bible, but that's a lot different from Government doing so.

Isn't that a demo-theocracy?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Anything can create a mindset one takes to the social world. That is why there is no difference between prayer and "You talkin' to me?"

Excepting the morality of the outcomes. Peace?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

People tend to believe that the soul is intimately related to God. If God is the summum bonum (highest good), is that an effective label or entity to associate with our personal psyche? Scientifically.

So implicitly I'm asking: if we draw closer to God in prayer, does that therefore make us more or less likely to behave morally? As per a groups internalised model of the ideal faithful person. As a result of that cognitive relationship in prayer and the schemas associated with it.

Or, its completely neutral? Hymns and rap music have the self same effects... and the same goes for prayer too.


The first video talks of children being labelled as "gifted". What about in church, where there is sometimes a social emphasis on the fruits of the spirit....

 

[Holoman]

Far more subtle?? You mean like a feeling that you should do something? How do you authenticate that whatever that subtle something is is actually God and not just the way your brain works?

The same way I know the external world is real and not just a figment of my imagination. Unless I have some reason to think otherwise, and I don't, I believe it because I feel it's authenticity.

Because the 'Creator' doesn't talk to me??? Let's look a bit more closely to the situation. If God has the majesty to be the creator of the universe the relative difference between us and Him is magnitudes greater than the difference between us and a slug. Do you carry on conversations with slugs?

I'm just being realistic here without diminishing the place humanity has carved out on just one of the uncountable planets in existence within the universe. It IS arrogance to think that the Creator of the Universe WANTS to talk to us and just can't figure out how to.

Why don't you think you are worth talking to? I do.
Do you really want the Creator to talk to you, who you think see's you as nothing more than a slug?

Actually, it IS the point of Jesus' teaching on pray. Look at the first verse:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

The words 'do not' just don't give any room for options. The next sentence makes it clear that if you do pray where you are seen by others, the ONLY thing you can expect is the ego gratification of being seen by others.

The sentence in full does not mean that.

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

i.e. do not pray for the purpose of being seen by others. It is the intent when praying, not your physical location.

 

[ThievingMagpie]

Isn't that a demo-theocracy?

Maybe I'm not being clear: in a democracy theres nothing that says Christian or other faith members can't vote in line with their beliefs: in fact many evangelicals voted Trump because they believe his policies are in line with their faith-based views for example on abortion. But the separation of church and statemeans governments can't rely on faith-based inferences for policy making. For example a government could change abortion laws, but it cant cite the bible for doing so - it would need secular reasoning.

 

[zephcom]

Excepting the morality of the outcomes. Peace?

Even the morality could be the same although that is not required.

Peace.

 

[zephcom]

The same way I know the external world is real and not just a figment of my imagination. Unless I have some reason to think otherwise, and I don't, I believe it because I feel it's authenticity.



Why don't you think you are worth talking to? I do.
Do you really want the Creator to talk to you, who you think see's you as nothing more than a slug?



The sentence in full does not mean that.

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

i.e. do not pray for the purpose of being seen by others. It is the intent when praying, not your physical location.

I don't intend to disrespect your feelings about God's authenticity in regard to messages, but you should understand that there is very little there for me to be impressed with. It is a lot like my friend who bought into the story of his golden teeth. His Holy Spirit has also convinced him that he is a healer and is constantly 'praying' for people who are sick. He 'feels' that he is making people better and nothing happens to them.

It isn't a matter that I don't feel like I'm worthy of being talked to by God. It is a matter that I understand vast differences in abilities between me and God. I also respect those differences. Should God desire to talk with me, I am completely confident that God has the ability to do that and to do that in a manner in which it will be completely and totally obvious to me that is who He is. I don't intend to let subtle things in my life be misinterpreted as 'God' when they are better understood as just natural occurrences just because I'm desperate to hear from Him. As God, I expect that He will know exactly how to get my attention should He ever have something to tell me.

Finally, I call it 'lawyering the Bible'. There is an entire cottage industry within the religion which only exists to teach misinterpretation of the Bible. If you break that sentence down correctly, it isn't about intent at all. It is a direct instruction to not be 'LIKE' those people who pray in the streets and churches. It is clear that is the case because Jesus goes on to instruct HIS followers to pray in secret. The entire part about being seen by others is dropped completely.

The first time I quoted the passage I used the NIV. Let's look at The Message because it is rendered in a contemporary English:

5 “And when you come before God, don’t turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat?

6 “Here’s what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won’t be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace.

7-13 “The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They’re full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don’t fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply."

It is completely clear that intent has nothing at all to do with public prayer. Jesus says to NOT DO THAT.

 

[Holoman]

I don't intend to disrespect your feelings about God's authenticity in regard to messages, but you should understand that there is very little there for me to be impressed with. It is a lot like my friend who bought into the story of his golden teeth. His Holy Spirit has also convinced him that he is a healer and is constantly 'praying' for people who are sick. He 'feels' that he is making people better and nothing happens to them.

It isn't a matter that I don't feel like I'm worthy of being talked to by God. It is a matter that I understand vast differences in abilities between me and God. I also respect those differences. Should God desire to talk with me, I am completely confident that God has the ability to do that and to do that in a manner in which it will be completely and totally obvious to me that is who He is. I don't intend to let subtle things in my life be misinterpreted as 'God' when they are better understood as just natural occurrences just because I'm desperate to hear from Him. As God, I expect that He will know exactly how to get my attention should He ever have something to tell me.

I'm not really concerned if you believe my authentic experience or not, the point is for individuals to have the experience themselves.

It sounds like you want to be press ganged into God's following, but that's not how he works, or he would lord over us like a celestial dictator.

Finally, I call it 'lawyering the Bible'. There is an entire cottage industry within the religion which only exists to teach misinterpretation of the Bible. If you break that sentence down correctly, it isn't about intent at all. It is a direct instruction to not be 'LIKE' those people who pray in the streets and churches. It is clear that is the case because Jesus goes on to instruct HIS followers to pray in secret. The entire part about being seen by others is dropped completely.

The first time I quoted the passage I used the NIV. Let's look at The Message because it is rendered in a contemporary English:

5 “And when you come before God, don’t turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat?

6 “Here’s what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won’t be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace.

7-13 “The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They’re full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don’t fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply."

It is completely clear that intent has nothing at all to do with public prayer. Jesus says to NOT DO THAT.

I think you're the one guilty of lawyering here, reading a single fragment of a sentence as if it is an absolute command.

Jesus himself prayer in public:

Matthew 27:46
"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")."

John 6:11
"Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish."

 

[zephcom]

I'm not really concerned if you believe my authentic experience or not, the point is for individuals to have the experience themselves.

It sounds like you want to be press ganged into God's following, but that's not how he works, or he would lord over us like a celestial dictator.



I think you're the one guilty of lawyering here, reading a single fragment of a sentence as if it is an absolute command.

Jesus himself prayer in public:

Matthew 27:46
"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")."

John 6:11
"Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish."

You say, "...that's not how He works" but offer nothing to support the statement. There is a HUGE difference between simply talking to me and being 'press ganged into God's following'. If there is any 'press ganging' going on it is from the people in the religion which uses Jesus' title for its name.

I read it as if it were a command because that is the way it is presented in the Bible. He didn't say don't BE them. He said don't be LIKE them. Hey it is your religion and it can ignore anything Jesus taught all it wants. I just point out that it goes against Jesus' teachings.

Think about all those tele-evangelists, Sunday morning preachers, City Council openers, football game pastors and all the rest of the people who spend years in seminary learning to make eloquent public prayers. They are playing to the audience and you know it. And Jesus said not to do that.

Why worship someone when you refuse His teachings?????

Finally, there is a difference between doing what Jesus taught and pretending one IS Jesus. Jesus did give thanks for food and probably did utter a spontaneous question directed to God while nailed to a post. He is also recorded as having His Apostles stand guard while He went into secret for prayers.

If I were trying to legislate myself out of His command, I would think that if I'm physically unable to move to a private place to pray that shouldn't prevent me from praying at all. Or if all I'm going to do is give thanks for the food, there may not be serious damage caused if I say, "Thanks Dude for the food" and move on.

But one needs to remember that Jesus practiced what He preached also. He would retreat into privacy to be with God for long enough times that His Apostles went to sleep while they were guarding Him.

 

[Allandavid]

The same way I know the external world is real and not just a figment of my imagination. Unless I have some reason to think otherwise, and I don't, I believe it because I feel it's authenticity.
.

The problem is that, when observing the external world, we have reference points, outside of ourselves, from which we can analyse and assess what we appear to be observing. Furthermore, we can have others use these same reference points to enable confirmation/rejection of our observations.

The contrast is that, in the case of prayer and the messages you claim it generates, it is literally all coming from within your own mind. And (I’m not trying to be offensive here) we do know that repeatedly creating certain images in one’s mind can result in an altered view of reality...

 

[Holoman]

You say, "...that's not how He works" but offer nothing to support the statement.

Well, the fact we don't have a big sign in the sky, or some sort of fact which compels us to believe He exists, can allow you to infer that he doesn't want to do that, because otherwise he would have done it.

There is a HUGE difference between simply talking to me and being 'press ganged into God's following'.

I'm not sure. From my thinking on the subject, I don't really get how humans can truly have free will unless we have some sort of justification for believing God doesn't exist. If God does exist and makes it undeniably clear that He does, then it changes how people will act and think of Him completely. Now, many people in that situation, instead of living as atheists, would begrudgingly follow orders because of the celestial dictator and threat of eternal misery, but I don't think God is interested in people doing that. He wants people to come to him in love, and that is why I think we need to seek Him. He will draw us towards him but he won't compel us.

I think Pascal said it best
“The prophecies of Scripture, even the miracles and proofs of our faith, are not the kind of evidence that are absolutely convincing. . . . There is . . . enough evidence to condemn and yet not enough to convince. . . .”

Now granted, for some people they may need some experience, some voice, or to see something to give them that nudge. And He will do that, on an individual basis.

If there is any 'press ganging' going on it is from the people in the religion which uses Jesus' title for its name.

I read it as if it were a command because that is the way it is presented in the Bible. He didn't say don't BE them. He said don't be LIKE them. Hey it is your religion and it can ignore anything Jesus taught all it wants. I just point out that it goes against Jesus' teachings.

Think about all those tele-evangelists, Sunday morning preachers, City Council openers, football game pastors and all the rest of the people who spend years in seminary learning to make eloquent public prayers. They are playing to the audience and you know it. And Jesus said not to do that.

Why worship someone when you refuse His teachings?????

Finally, there is a difference between doing what Jesus taught and pretending one IS Jesus. Jesus did give thanks for food and probably did utter a spontaneous question directed to God while nailed to a post. He is also recorded as having His Apostles stand guard while He went into secret for prayers.

If I were trying to legislate myself out of His command, I would think that if I'm physically unable to move to a private place to pray that shouldn't prevent me from praying at all. Or if all I'm going to do is give thanks for the food, there may not be serious damage caused if I say, "Thanks Dude for the food" and move on.

But one needs to remember that Jesus practiced what He preached also. He would retreat into privacy to be with God for long enough times that His Apostles went to sleep while they were guarding Him.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of the passage. I'm not disagreeing that prayer in private is important, but it doesn't mean there is an absolute prohibition on public prayer, in say a church service or something.

No doubt there are plenty of pastors or televangelists that are doing it for the personal exposure it gives them, and they've received their reward in full.

 

[Holoman]

The problem is that, when observing the external world, we have reference points, outside of ourselves, from which we can analyse and assess what we appear to be observing. Furthermore, we can have others use these same reference points to enable confirmation/rejection of our observations.

The contrast is that, in the case of prayer and the messages you claim it generates, it is literally all coming from within your own mind. And (I’m not trying to be offensive here) we do know that repeatedly creating certain images in one’s mind can result in an altered view of reality...

But we can never get outside our senses to verify anything. I can do experiments or ask someone else to verify, but I don't even know if they exist or are a figment of my imagination. If I'm a brain in a jar or in the Matrix, I can never get outside of it to verify.

Now if you ask me, am I more convinced that the physical world exists than God is speaking to me in prayer, I would say I'm more convinced of the physical world, naturally. I've never spoken to a burning bush or something else that would really compel me to believe, but my belief in God isn't really based on my experience in prayer.

 

[Allandavid]

But we can never get outside our senses to verify anything. I can do experiments or ask someone else to verify, but I don't even know if they exist or are a figment of my imagination. If I'm a brain in a jar or in the Matrix, I can never get outside of it to verify.

And that’s where we come to a consensus as to what is ‘real’. Without that consensus, we could literally get nothing done in our world. You’re right, we still could be wrong...we could be just ‘brains in a vat’. But, so what...? The assumptions we make about reality seem to work, don’t they...?

Now if you ask me, am I more convinced that the physical world exists than God is speaking to me in prayer, I would say I'm more convinced of the physical world, naturally. I've never spoken to a burning bush or something else that would really compel me to believe, but my belief in God isn't really based on my experience in prayer.

Your honesty is refreshing...

 

[zephcom]

Well, the fact we don't have a big sign in the sky, or some sort of fact which compels us to believe He exists, can allow you to infer that he doesn't want to do that, because otherwise he would have done it.



I'm not sure. From my thinking on the subject, I don't really get how humans can truly have free will unless we have some sort of justification for believing God doesn't exist. If God does exist and makes it undeniably clear that He does, then it changes how people will act and think of Him completely. Now, many people in that situation, instead of living as atheists, would begrudgingly follow orders because of the celestial dictator and threat of eternal misery, but I don't think God is interested in people doing that. He wants people to come to him in love, and that is why I think we need to seek Him. He will draw us towards him but he won't compel us.

I think Pascal said it best
“The prophecies of Scripture, even the miracles and proofs of our faith, are not the kind of evidence that are absolutely convincing. . . . There is . . . enough evidence to condemn and yet not enough to convince. . . .”

Now granted, for some people they may need some experience, some voice, or to see something to give them that nudge. And He will do that, on an individual basis.



We'll just have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of the passage. I'm not disagreeing that prayer in private is important, but it doesn't mean there is an absolute prohibition on public prayer, in say a church service or something.

No doubt there are plenty of pastors or televangelists that are doing it for the personal exposure it gives them, and they've received their reward in full.

The fact that there is no big sign in the sky or anything else that infers He exists is why I'm a Deist. Despite your claim that God manifests Himself in subtle ways, the reality is more likely that if He exists at all, He isn't interested in communicating with us.

On the other side of the coin, I have often wished science would end its 'hands off' attitude about God. If God really DOES communicate with humans in any manner at all, that would mean there is a physical realm connection between God and humans. If that connection exists in the physical realm, science would be able to detect it. That would settle everything, huh?

Free will is another can of worms entirely. In short, should anyone including God have perfect knowledge of the future, free will can not exist. And that is true even if we all 'feel' like we are making decisions. Take, for instance, Judas. Once Jesus revealed that Judas would betray Him, Judas could only do two things, betray Jesus or make Jesus wrong. If we assume Jesus could not be wrong because of His relationship with the all-knowing God, then Judas could do only one thing even if he thought he could either of the two things. Free will requires that we can actually choose any of the options available to us.

Free will destroys ALL prophesy and foreknowledge of the future.

The reality is that Pascal is wrong. If there is not enough evidence to convince, there is not enough evidence to condemn. If a mean and hateful 'God' which will wantonly torture non-believers can not be established as true, then none of that 'God's' tortures can be established either.

I'm happy agreeing to disagree. But do consider that Jesus specifically mentioned synagogues as places these hypocrites show up. Since 'churches' didn't exist at that time, one can't expect Jesus to specifically mention them. But the reality is that both churches and synagogues, while representing different religions, are identical in function. I would think you are lawyering the passages again by giving churches a pass when Jesus didn't give synagogues a pass.

People who follow Jesus really should just assume Jesus knows what He is talking about and stop trying to make up excuses for ignoring Him.

 

[Resha Caner]

From an empirical perspective, one can't know one way or the other whether prayer works. So, believers who are willing to be honest about it, would admit they don't know God's answer to most of their prayers. Believers continue to pray because their belief comes from other places than the specific prayer for today.

If the unbeliever is willing to be honest, they'll admit much about the world is likewise. I asked my Dad for many things when I was young. Some I got, some I didn't. Some of what I got came from his hand, some did not. Given my capacity at the time, discerning which was which was well nigh impossible. I know for a fact my children are unaware of all the things my wife and I do for them, and we sometimes answer their requests in ways they don't understand.

The clinical nature of scientific studies and the way that differs from the morass that is the world seems to mislead many into thinking they know enough about their circumstances to identify the cause of what happens to them.

 

[Holoman]

The fact that there is no big sign in the sky or anything else that infers He exists is why I'm a Deist. Despite your claim that God manifests Himself in subtle ways, the reality is more likely that if He exists at all, He isn't interested in communicating with us.

On the other side of the coin, I have often wished science would end its 'hands off' attitude about God. If God really DOES communicate with humans in any manner at all, that would mean there is a physical realm connection between God and humans. If that connection exists in the physical realm, science would be able to detect it. That would settle everything, huh?

I'm not sure you could ever infer a cause outside of the universe, given that much of what occurs on the quantum level has completely unknown causes anyway. We don't know if quantum events are deterministic or not, so even if a being was influencing things at this level from outside the universe you wouldn't be able to tell.

Free will is another can of worms entirely. In short, should anyone including God have perfect knowledge of the future, free will can not exist. And that is true even if we all 'feel' like we are making decisions. Take, for instance, Judas. Once Jesus revealed that Judas would betray Him, Judas could only do two things, betray Jesus or make Jesus wrong. If we assume Jesus could not be wrong because of His relationship with the all-knowing God, then Judas could do only one thing even if he thought he could either of the two things. Free will requires that we can actually choose any of the options available to us.

Free will destroys ALL prophesy and foreknowledge of the future.

I've heard people say this before but never really understood why they think it. I don't see how knowing the future and free will are incompatible. Just because you know someone's choice doesn't mean they weren't free in choosing it. Imagine I record a football game and watch it later but already know the score. I know what will happen but doesn't mean the players weren't free in choosing what to do when they played.

What destroys free will to me is if humans are just material beings. Is that your view or do you think we have an immaterial component, or "soul"?