Prayer.

[HitchSlap]

So, when you said...

Basically the same thing that's accomplished when my kids talk to me.

I asked if you have an example.

 

[Hammster]

So, when you said...

I asked if you have an example.

And I said read the thread. I gave an example. You had to have at least seen the post because you know he old I am

 

[HitchSlap]

And I said read the thread. I gave an example. You had to have at least seen the post because you know he old I am

What, specifically, is "accomplished," when you pray/talk to the god?

 

[Hammster]

What, specifically, is "accomplished," when you pray/talk to the god?

I'm 47. I remember. Plus, as a dad, I know that my kids ask for stuff, tell me about what's going on, receive instruction and discipline. Things like that.

 

[AV1611VET]

What does prayer accomplish?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I'm 47. I remember. Plus, as a dad, I know that my kids ask for stuff, tell me about what's going on, receive instruction and discipline. Things like that.

Can you give me an example of an instruction you received during prayer and how you know it came from God? Some might think that "instruction" was simply the result of your own mind thinking about what to do next.

And yes, you may ask for stuff, but do you have any evidence that such requests give you more stuff?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Another simple question: why do Christians pray? What does prayer accomplish?

One might argue it depends on what kind of prayer.

Though I also come from the position that prayer is chiefly for our benefit, through prayer we don't influence God or cause material change in the universe (i.e. magick); rather through prayer we submit ourselves to the will of God. The archetypal Christian prayer includes, "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"; this is not somehow our giving God permission, but rather shows that we offer our affirmation, our "amen" to what God will do. Petition, as in, "Your kingdom come" is not as though it would be any other way if we didn't pray this (the reality of God's reign doesn't depend on us), but again places us in a position of desiring what God desires and submitting ourselves to the will of God. This would also apply to other sorts of petitionary prayer, such as for healing--we are invited to place our hopes, our desires, our fears, all these things before God in prayer--hoping that He will do what He will do.

When I pray, I don't imagine that my prayer will function like magick, or that I will somehow get God to act like my personal genie. When I pray I pray with the faith that God is going to do whatever He's going to do anyway, but that in my prayer my faith is strengthened, I am comforted in the promise that God hears me (even in my silence). I'm the one that needs to change, to be shaped and molded. Prayer shapes me, and I think that is the chief purpose of prayer, to shape the people of God individually and corporately; it is a key component of how we exist in relation to God in the Church. God certainly doesn't need our prayers, but we do.

In addition to this there is also the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi: the law of prayer is the law of belief. Prayer (and worship in general) shapes how we believe and what we believe. The way we believe and how we believe is shaped by how and the way we pray.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zippy2006]

One might argue it depends on what kind of prayer.

Though I also come from the position that prayer is chiefly for our benefit, through prayer we don't influence God or cause material change in the universe (i.e. magick); rather through prayer we submit ourselves to the will of God. The archetypal Christian prayer includes, "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"; this is not somehow our giving God permission, but rather shows that we offer our affirmation, our "amen" to what God will do. Petition, as in, "Your kingdom come" is not as though it would be any other way if we didn't pray this (the reality of God's reign doesn't depend on us), but again places us in a position of desiring what God desires and submitting ourselves to the will of God. This would also apply to other sorts of petitionary prayer, such as for healing--we are invited to place our hopes, our desires, our fears, all these things before God in prayer--hoping that He will do what He will do.

When I pray, I don't imagine that my prayer will function like magick, or that I will somehow get God to act like my personal genie. When I pray I pray with the faith that God is going to do whatever He's going to do anyway, but that in my prayer my faith is strengthened, I am comforted in the promise that God hears me (even in my silence). I'm the one that needs to change, to be shaped and molded. Prayer shapes me, and I think that is the chief purpose of prayer, to shape the people of God individually and corporately; it is a key component of how we exist in relation to God in the Church. God certainly doesn't need our prayers, but we do.

In addition to this there is also the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi: the law of prayer is the law of belief. Prayer (and worship in general) shapes how we believe and what we believe. The way we believe and how we believe is shaped by how and the way we pray.

-CryptoLutheran

Your unorthodox view of petitionary prayer is particularly strange given your Lutheranism and how seemingly contrary to scripture it is. Is this actually a common view among Lutherans or would you consider yourself an outlier?

In any case, I have never heard petitionary prayer conflated with magic. The father-son analogy used by two members in this thread is scriptural (Matthew 7:9-11, Luke 11:11-13). Calling petitionary prayer magic seems to be on par with claiming that the young girl who asks her father for a cookie is involved in witchcraft.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Your unorthodox view of petitionary prayer is particularly strange given your Lutheranism and how seemingly contrary to scripture it is. Is this actually a common view among Lutherans or would you consider yourself an outlier?

In any case, I have never heard petitionary prayer conflated with magic. The father-son analogy used by two members in this thread is scriptural (Matthew 7:9-11, Luke 11:11-13). Calling petitionary prayer magic seems to be on par with claiming that the young girl who asks her father for a cookie is involved in witchcraft.

I don't think petitionary prayer is magic. I think treating prayer as a way to bend the universe to my will is to treat prayer like magic. Prayer isn't how we bend the universe to our will, prayer is how we present ourselves before God and seek His will. I don't see how this is an unorthodox view of prayer.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zippy2006]

I don't think petitionary prayer is magic. I think treating prayer as a way to bend the universe to my will is to treat prayer like magic. Prayer isn't how we bend the universe to our will, prayer is how we present ourselves before God and seek His will. I don't see how this is an unorthodox view of prayer.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay, but let me ask this question for clarification: if I petition God and anticipate an answer to my petition because I asked, am I involving myself in a kind of magic?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay, but let me ask this question for clarification: if I petition God and anticipate an answer to my petition because I asked, am I involving myself in a kind of magic?

No.

But if one were to petition God believing that they can make God do what they want, that would be magick. God doesn't need our permission to act, nor can we force His hand if we say the right words, or perform the right acts.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zippy2006]

No.

But if one were to petition God believing that they can make God do what they want, that would be magick. God doesn't need our permission to act, nor can we force His hand if we say the right words, or perform the right acts.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay, great. Sorry, apparently I misunderstood you (although I think we still disagree on the counterfactual nature of petitionary prayer).

If I am understanding you correctly, it is a matter of intention rather than action. The right way would be to humbly submit our request to God and let him decide what to do with it. The "magic" therefore comes in thinking we can either control or bypass God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay, great. Sorry, apparently I misunderstood you (although I think we still disagree on the counterfactual nature of petitionary prayer).

If I am understanding you correctly, it is a matter of intention rather than action. The right way would be to humbly submit our request to God and let him decide what to do with it. The "magic" therefore comes in thinking we can either control or bypass God.

Correct.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tree of Life]

Another simple question: why do Christians pray? What does prayer accomplish?

The most important thing that prayer accomplishes is a change within us. Prayer helps us to recognize the presence of God in our lives and to give him credit and thanks for the good things we receive. Prayer also helps us to come to terms with our sinfulness as we confess our sins to God. Prayer helps us come to an assurance of pardon as we ask for forgiveness. Prayer helps us to be more attuned to the needs of others as we pray on others' behalf.

This is not the only thing that prayer does, but probably the most important thing.

It's interesting to note that the Hebrew word for "pray" is a self-reflexive verb. It occurs as יִּתְפַּלֵּ֥ל which is the self reflexive form of פלל which means to intercede. So yitpalal literally means to "intercede yourself". In a sense, prayer is something you do to yourself. God does not need our prayers. We need to pray.

 

[Davian]

The most important thing that prayer accomplishes is a change within us. Prayer helps us to recognize the presence of God in our lives and to give him credit and thanks for the good things we receive. Prayer also helps us to come to terms with our sinfulness as we confess our sins to God. Prayer helps us come to an assurance of pardon as we ask for forgiveness. Prayer helps us to be more attuned to the needs of others as we pray on others' behalf.

This is not the only thing that prayer does, but probably the most important thing.

It's interesting to note that the Hebrew word for "pray" is a self-reflexive verb. It occurs as יִּתְפַּלֵּ֥ל which is the self reflexive form of פלל which means to intercede. So yitpalal literally means to "intercede yourself". In a sense, prayer is something you do to yourself. God does not need our prayers. We need to pray.

What then was the intent of Governor Perry, when he issued his "Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain"?

Office of the Governor Rick Perry - [Proclamation] Gov. Perry Issues Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain in Texas

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

For the Christian, praying is supposed to be like breathing, easier to do than to not do. We pray for a variety of reasons. For one thing, prayer is a form of serving God (Luke 2:36-38) and obeying Him. We pray because God commands us to pray (Philippians 4:6-7). Prayer is exemplified for us by Christ and the early church (Mark 1:35; Acts 1:14; 2:42; 3:1; 4:23-31; 6:4; 13:1-3). If Jesus thought it was worthwhile to pray, we should also. If He needed to pray to remain in the Father’s will, how much more do we need to pray?

Another reason to pray is that God intends prayer to be the means of obtaining His solutions in a number of situations. We pray in preparation for major decisions (Luke 6:12-13); to overcome demonic barriers (Matthew 17:14-21); to gather workers for the spiritual harvest (Luke 10:2); to gain strength to overcome temptation (Matthew 26:41); and to obtain the means of strengthening others spiritually (Ephesians 6:18-19).

We come to God with our specific requests, and we have God's promise that our prayers are not in vain, even if we do not receive specifically what we asked for (Matthew 6:6; Romans 8:26-27). He has promised that when we ask for things that are in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask for (1 John 5:14-15). Sometimes He delays His answers according to His wisdom and for our benefit. In these situations, we are to be diligent and persistent in prayer (Matthew 7:7; Luke 18:1-8). Prayer should not be seen as our means of getting God to do our will on earth, but rather as a means of getting God's will done on earth. God’s wisdom far exceeds our own.

For situations in which we do not know God's will specifically, prayer is a means of discerning His will. If the Syrian woman with the demon-influenced daughter had not prayed to Christ, her daughter would not have been made whole (Mark 7:26-30). If the blind man outside Jericho had not called out to Christ, he would have remained blind (Luke 18:35-43). God has said that we often go without because we do not ask (James 4:2). In one sense, prayer is like sharing the gospel with people. We do not know who will respond to the message of the gospel until we share it. In the same way, we will never see the results of answered prayer unless we pray.

A lack of prayer demonstrates a lack of faith and a lack of trust in God’s Word. We pray to demonstrate our faith in God, that He will do as He has promised in His Word and bless our lives abundantly more than we could ask or hope for (Ephesians 3:20). Prayer is our primary means of seeing God work in others' lives. Because it is our means of “plugging into” God's power, it is our means of defeating Satan and his army that we are powerless to overcome by ourselves. Therefore, may God find us often before His throne, for we have a high priest in heaven who can identify with all that we go through (Hebrews 4:15-16). We have His promise that the fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much (James 5:16-18). May God glorify His name in our lives as we believe in Him enough to come to Him often in prayer.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[Tree of Life]

What then was the intent of Governor Perry, when he issued his "Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain"?

Office of the Governor Rick Perry - [Proclamation] Gov. Perry Issues Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain in Texas

His intent is obvious. He thought it appropriate that we should humble ourselves and petition the Lord, the maker of rain, to send rain to Texas.

 

[Davian]

His intent is obvious. He thought it appropriate that we should humble ourselves and petition the Lord,

From what I understand, the request for prayer was not religion specific.

"I urge Texans of all faiths and traditions to offer prayers on that day for the healing of our land, the rebuilding of our communities and the restoration of our normal and robust way of life," the proclamation states.

https://www.texastribune.org/2011/04/21/texas-governor-declares-weekend-of-prayer-for-rain/

the maker of rain, to send rain to Texas.

To paraphrase Zippy from an earlier post, in the context of the governor's request, if we petition [God] and anticipate an answer to our petition because we asked, are we not involving ourselves in a kind of magic? That is how prayer seems to be used here, not how you described it.

 

[Tree of Life]

To paraphrase Zippy from an earlier post, in the context of the governor's request, if we petition [God] and anticipate an answer to our petition because we asked, are we not involving ourselves in a kind of magic? That is how prayer seems to be used here, not how you described it.

Note from my post that I said that my reasons given were not the only reasons for prayer. Prayer also can affect change in the world.

 

[Davian]

Note from my post that I said that my reasons given were not the only reasons for prayer.

Understood.

Prayer also can affect change in the world.

Can it do so in a manner that rises above random chance and confirmation bias? I do recall that the governor's efforts were... less than effective.