Prayer Mt 18

[HTacianas]

@HTacianas and @2PhiloVoid , in the old thread linked by @2PhiloVoid ( At least Matt tried to consider a context....! ) he uses the analogy of a rubbing a genie's magic lamp to get whatever you want from God as long as 2 or 3 are asking in agreement.

I agree that this verse is saying that the decisions of church government are endorsed by Jesus and the Father. But isn't that another example of rubbing a genie's magic lamp except that the people doing the rubbing are church authorities rather than ordinary parishioners? How is that any better really? God is reduced to a genie slavishly endorsing whatever ridiculous decision a church government might reach. Of course we would hope that the promised spiritual presence of Jesus among them might inspire the church authorities to make righteous decisions, but we have had so much disorder in the church hierarchy over the past 2000 years that we might have our doubts.

It is not a decision of a "church government". It is a decision for the apostles and their successors.

 

[cloudyday2]

It is not a decision of a "church government". It is a decision for the apostles and their successors.

Aren't the bishops the successors to the apostles, and aren't the bishops the ones who gather and define things like the Nicene Creed? Further, it seems that every Christian can claim to be a successor to the apostles, so maybe it means all Christian leaders great and small - prayer group leaders, choir leaders, etc.

From the context it seems that Jesus is promising to inspire and endorse the decisions of church authorities as they govern the behavior of wayward church members.

 

[HTacianas]

Aren't the bishops the successors to the apostles, and aren't the bishops the ones who gather and define things like the Nicene Creed? Further, it seems that every Christian can claim to be a successor to the apostles, so maybe it means all Christian leaders great and small - prayer group leaders, choir leaders, etc.

From the context it seems that Jesus is promising to inspire and endorse the decisions of church authorities as they govern the behavior of wayward church members.

A successor to the apostles is someone specifically ordained to the position.

1Ti 4:14 - Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

Timothy was ordained a successor through the laying on of hands specifically for that purpose. Timothy did not declare it for himself. Neither you nor I nor any other layman can claim that for themselves.

 

[cloudyday2]

A successor to the apostles is someone specifically ordained to the position.

1Ti 4:14 - Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.

Timothy was ordained a successor through the laying on of hands specifically for that purpose. Timothy did not declare it for himself. Neither you nor I nor any other layman can claim that for themselves.

The verses referenced in the OP have Jesus speaking to Peter and his fellow disciples about a scenario where they might be attempting to correct a wayward follower. There is no mention of the formal office of "apostle" as far as I can see. Peter may have been an apostle, but he was also simply a Christian. Jesus might be giving guidance to apostles, but he might also be giving guidance to any Christian in a position of church leadership of any kind. In fact, Jesus might be giving guidance specifically to Peter and his fellow disciples that applies to nobody else after them.

Do you agree? The issue of apostolic succession is not necessarily relevant.

 

[HTacianas]

The verses referenced in the OP have Jesus speaking to Peter and his fellow disciples about a scenario where they might be attempting to correct a wayward follower. There is no mention of the formal office of "apostle" as far as I can see. Peter may have been an apostle, but he was also simply a Christian. Jesus might be giving guidance to apostles, but he might also be giving guidance to any Christian in a position of church leadership of any kind. In fact, Jesus might be giving guidance specifically to Peter and his fellow disciples that applies to nobody else after them.

Do you agree? The issue of apostolic succession is not necessarily relevant.

I disagree strongly. Jesus said to them also:

Jhn 20:23 - “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Are we to assume as laymen that we can forgive someone's sins? Paul said to the Ephesians:

Eph 4:11 - And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

So yes, there is a hierarchy. Not all things are said to all people.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If you do not hear Him, DO NOT listen to Him. Simple.

Why do you respond to me at all? You refuse to answer my questions, so why respond?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The idea of a layman having a bible is only recent. The bible has been published at large for several hundred years. But it has not been widely available due mainly to cost. Aside from that, literacy among the public, at least in the United States, has only been widespread for 100 years or so.

If a layman needed a bible to be saved, salvation itself would be a new thing.

Why won't god come down and clear up all the confusion among Christians? Christians have been arguing doctrine sine the first century. There has never been a consensus on doctrine. Paul and Timothy disagreed and both were supposed to be divinely inspired.

 

[cloudyday2]

I disagree strongly. Jesus said to them also:

Jhn 20:23 - “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Are we to assume as laymen that we can forgive someone's sins? Paul said to the Ephesians:

Why not? Why couldn't this be saying to all Christians "if somebody sins against you then you should forgive them so that their sins will also be forgiven by God". Many of the parables of Jesus speak of forgiving and turning the other cheek, so why shouldn't this be merely adding a mystical dimension and importance to the earthly act of one human turning the other cheek and forgiving?

Eph 4:11 - And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,

So yes, there is a hierarchy. Not all things are said to all people.

There is no reason to assume that is a hierarchy. Are apostles necessarily greater than pastors? Didn't Jesus emphasize humility and service by washing the feet of his disciples before the Last Supper? Why would Jesus institute a hierarchy as opposed to a peer-to-peer relationship between specialists of different types? The behavior of a specialist is to accomplish a task using abilities given by God. The behavior of a leader in a hierarchy is to organize the actions of underlings. Of course organizational skill is also an ability given by God.

 

[cloudyday2]

@Clizby WampusCat , there is a different verse that says even more clearly that Christians should be praying in faith that anything is possible - including an end to the COVID-19 crisis.
Matthew 17:20 ESV
'He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”'
Matthew 17 ESV

 

[HTacianas]

Why not? Why couldn't this be saying to all Christians "if somebody sins against you then you should forgive them so that their sins will also be forgiven by God". Many of the parables of Jesus speak of forgiving and turning the other cheek, so why shouldn't this be merely adding a mystical dimension and importance to the earthly act of one human turning the other cheek and forgiving?


There is no reason to assume that is a hierarchy. Are apostles necessarily greater than pastors? Didn't Jesus emphasize humility and service by washing the feet of his disciples before the Last Supper? Why would Jesus institute a hierarchy as opposed to a peer-to-peer relationship between specialists of different types? The behavior of a specialist is to accomplish a task using abilities given by God. The behavior of a leader in a hierarchy is to organize the actions of underlings. Of course organizational skill is also an ability given by God.

John 20:23 is not merely an individual forgiving someone for sinning against them personally. If it was that we would be allowed to withhold forgiveness but we are not. That was given to the apostles as part of their apostolic ministry. Just as the giving of the Holy Spirit through laying on of hands was given only to the apostles.

There is every reason to see it is a hierarchy. There is no "peer to peer" Christianity. If there was Philip the deacon could have bestowed the Holy Spirit on the Samaritans but he could not. He had to send for Peter and John to do it.

Aside from that, teachers are judged more strictly than laymen:

Jas 3:1 - My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why do you respond to me at all? You refuse to answer my questions, so why respond?

Jesus listened to, or rather spoke to, those opposed to Him, and refused or did not answer their questions either.
God has His Own Ways, different entirely from society, forums, governments, religions, and so on.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

'He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”'

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

there is a different verse that says even more clearly that Christians should be praying in faith that anything is possible - including an end to the COVID-19 crisis.
Matthew 17:20 ESV

"crisis"? perhaps. For those who have prayed, and sought the truth, and learned the truth, "anything is possible"? The remedies used for centuries can be used again effectively.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@Clizby WampusCat , there is a different verse that says even more clearly that Christians should be praying in faith that anything is possible - including an end to the COVID-19 crisis.
Matthew 17:20 ESV
'He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.”'
Matthew 17 ESV

So, cloudy, how many actual mountains have been moved since Jesus said this? Do we want to count Mt. Vesuvius and Mt. St. Helens? Somehow (to put it mildly), I don't think the moving of actual mountains is what Jesus had in mind, nor did He have in mind, even as a suggestion, that He meant anyone can just pray for anything. No, however parabolic and metaphorical His language, Jesus was getting at something a little more specific, something more germane to spiritual warfare, but we like to read these words a different way and turn them into a 'blank check' for what any of us would like to have. And I do understand why: a number of folks have some long-term hardship that is difficult to deal with. And I empathize. I truly do, but despite our individual sufferings and our shortcomings in interpreting the bible, this doesn't mean we can ignore the intricacies of the biblical text, even with a statement like the one you're picking on here in Matthew 17.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree that this verse is saying that the decisions of church government are endorsed by Jesus and the Father.

Not true. Everything must be tested before being accepted, all thru Scripture it never says Jesus nor the Father "endorses" errors when they happen.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why won't god come down and clear up all the confusion among Christians? Christians have been arguing doctrine sine the first century. There has never been a consensus on doctrine. Paul and Timothy disagreed and both were supposed to be divinely inspired.

Among some, there is no confusion. Publicly, what is promoted and advertised - ongoing confusion.
In a few assemblies of Ekklesia, as in the first century reported in the New Testament, freedom from sinful confusion , instead experiencing and walking in daily joy, peace, and rigtheousness.

The joy of believers, their daily peace and talking with Jesus and about the Father,
doing as direct in His Word, was
what drew me to Jesus after having lived almost two decades in 'religion' , the form of it, without the power ....

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Jesus listened to, or rather spoke to, those opposed to Him, and refused or did not answer their questions either.
God has His Own Ways, different entirely from society, forums, governments, religions, and so on.

Are you Jesus? I think you don't like the implications of the question so you won't answer. Can God convince me he exists and is moral?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Among some, there is no confusion. Publicly, what is promoted and advertised - ongoing confusion.
In a few assemblies of Ekklesia, as in the first century reported in the New Testament, freedom from sinful confusion , instead experiencing and walking in daily joy, peace, and rigtheousness.

The joy of believers, their daily peace and talking with Jesus and about the Father,
doing as direct in His Word, was
what drew me to Jesus after having lived almost two decades in 'religion' , the form of it, without the power ....

So your answer is that some agree. OK. There are Christians that do not believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus for forgiveness of sins and others that believe that a sin sacrifice is required for salvation. Both look to the bible as their source of truth, both say they "know" God and Jesus and experience joy etc. How is this reconciled and why does God allow this confusion?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are you Jesus? I think you don't like the implications of the question so you won't answer. Can God convince me he exists and is moral?

I'll answer honestly and truthfully.
What did the messengers of Yahweh say in the NT ? The ones who are one with Jesus ?
Same today.
No, God will not convince you of anything. Everyone choose for themselves.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So your answer is that some agree. OK. There are Christians that do not believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus for forgiveness of sins and others that believe that a sin sacrifice is required for salvation. Both look to the bible as their source of truth, both say they "know" God and Jesus and experience joy etc. How is this reconciled and why does God allow this confusion?

Simple. When people say something, it is usually not true.
Watch for truth.