Prayer Makes No Sense

[Ana the Ist]

Hi Ana,

If this question is of special importance to you, then I wouldn't spend much time here on a public forum seeking less than the best answers. I'd instead read the following books from those who have some well-thought out answers:

1) The God Who Hears - W. Bingham Hunter

2) When God Doesn't Answer Your Prayer - Jerry Sittser

3) Why Is God Ignoring Me - Gary R. Habermas

I'm particularly impressed with the first book that I've listed above, but the other two are good, too.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Is this question to complex for the layman?

My only concern over reading books on the topic is that they'll be working off assumptions I don't have an therefore unable to answer my question in any satisfactory way.

 

[Chesterton]

The most common answer I've seen is that god answers prayers in one of three basic ways...

1. Prayer granted.

2. Prayer not granted.

3. Maybe prayer will be granted later.

I'm just going to say this is a nonsense answer. We could say this about wishes or literally anything that can actually happen. Will it rain? Yes. No. Possibly later. Will I one day find true love? Yes. No. Possibly later.

You're right, we could and do say this about a lot of things. Asking something of a parent, a boss, a spouse, a friend, etc. when we can't control what the answer will be...So how exactly does that make it nonsense?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Is this question to complex for the layman?

My only concern over reading books on the topic is that they'll be working off assumptions I don't have an therefore unable to answer my question in any satisfactory way.

What are your assumptions? Perhaps the books that I've recommended anticipate some of the misinformed expectations many people have, even those which some Christians have, about the act of praying.

In fact, it is with issues like this one wherein hermeneutics becomes an important factor in competently interpreting the Bible. It doesn't really help that people are somehow under the impression that they're just "free, free, free" to interpret the Bible as they see fit; it's also unhelpful to everyone that some Christians are under the false impression that the Holy Spirit will just impart to them perfect understandings by fiat with no interpretive effort involved whatsoever. This kind of assumed thinking by Christians does everyone a disservice.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're right, we could and do say this about a lot of things. Asking something of a parent, a boss, a spouse, a friend, etc. when we can't control what the answer will be...So how exactly does that make it nonsense?

As I said, it's the same result we would expect from no god at all.

 

[bling]

As I said, it's the same result we would expect from no god at all.

With no god at all would you expect to have this universe and/or life?
What has kept human life continuing to exist with all the ways it could be destroyed?

 

[Chesterton]

As I said, it's the same result we would expect from no god at all.

But it's also the same result we would expect from an all-knowing God who knows what's best in the long run, so it's not nonsense, and your argument's a wash.

 

[Ana the Ist]

With no god at all would you expect to have this universe and/or life?
What has kept human life continuing to exist with all the ways it could be destroyed?

Great questions...inventing an answer out of thin air though doesn't make it true.

 

[Ana the Ist]

But it's also the same result we would expect from an all-knowing God who knows what's best in the long run, so it's not nonsense, and your argument's a wash.

Is it the same result we would expect from a god?

If I told you I knew a magical genie who granted wishes, as long as they weren't impossible, in one of three ways...

1. Wish granted.
2. Wish not granted.
3. Maybe the wish is granted later.

Would you think it equally plausible that the genie exists and doesn't exist?

 

[Philip_B]

So...you can't really expect god to do anything, as everything happens according to his will?

I am not obsessed with my own capacity to bring about change in the universe beyond that with entirely within my ability.

 

[Chesterton]

Is it the same result we would expect from a god?

If I told you I knew a magical genie who granted wishes, as long as they weren't impossible, in one of three ways...

1. Wish granted.
2. Wish not granted.
3. Maybe the wish is granted later.

Would you think it equally plausible that the genie exists and doesn't exist?

Yes, that's what I just said. But as an atheistic argument it's just dumb - a real case of darned if you do and darned if you don't. Imagine a 10 y.o. who asks his parents for a Harley Davidson. They say no, or they say yes, or they say maybe later. Whichever they say, the kid concludes the parents don't exist because the result is the same as if they maybe didn't exist.

I also have to add that while I agree with you, it's in a limited way, because from personal experience, there can be more information to go by than simply getting or not getting your wish. For example, with the passage of time, if you're wise, sometimes you realize that something you prayed for and really wanted would have resulted in a big disaster if you'd gotten it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, that's what I just said. But as an atheistic argument it's just dumb - a real case of darned if you do and darned if you don't. Imagine a 10 y.o. who asks his parents for a Harley Davidson. They say no, or they say yes, or they say maybe later. Whichever they say, the kid concludes the parents don't exist because the result is the same as if they maybe didn't exist.

I don't really need to explain why that analogy fails on multiple levels, do I? Other than the obvious fact that the child has proof his parents exist...he can directly attribute whether or not he gets the Harley to them, not random chance.

I also have to add that while I agree with you, it's in a limited way, because from personal experience, there can be more information to go by than simply getting or not getting your wish. For example, with the passage of time, if you're wise, sometimes you realize that something you prayed for and really wanted would have resulted in a big disaster if you'd gotten it.

Example?

 

[Philip_B]

Other than the obvious fact that the child has proof his parents exist

Philosophically your argument only works for an existentialist. Just saying ...

 

[Chesterton]

I don't really need to explain why that analogy fails on multiple levels, do I? Other than the obvious fact that the child has proof his parents exist...he can directly attribute whether or not he gets the Harley to them, not random chance.

Directly attribute?

Example?

Nah, I'll pass.

 

[ananda]

You're talking about the famously misunderstood physics experiment where the "observer" was a screen...not a person.

Having a conscious observer doesn't alter the experiment in any way.

It is my understanding that the data produced by camera-observers was itself observed by living consciousnesses. As is written in the journal:

"Other interpretations of quantum mechanics ... consider observation to be more involved with the actual conscious experience of the experimental result ... The most common argument that consciousness is not involved in the quantum experiment is that a not-conscious robot could do the experiment. However, for any experiment to be meaningful to us, a human must eventually evaluate it ... An overarching structure, somehow involving conscious free will, seems required"​

 

[Ana the Ist]

Philosophically your argument only works for an existentialist. Just saying ...

Because all non-existentialists don't believe their parents exist?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It is my understanding that the data produced by camera-observers was itself observed by living consciousnesses. As is written in the journal:

"Other interpretations of quantum mechanics ... consider observation to be more involved with the actual conscious experience of the experimental result ... The most common argument that consciousness is not involved in the quantum experiment is that a not-conscious robot could do the experiment. However, for any experiment to be meaningful to us, a human must eventually evaluate it ... An overarching structure, somehow involving conscious free will, seems required"​

Sure, it's true that people performed the experiment...it's also true that has nothing to do with consciousness affecting it's outcome.

 

[ananda]

Sure, it's true that people performed the experiment...it's also true that has nothing to do with consciousness affecting it's outcome.

I disagree with your assessment. Whatever the case might be, I am merely sharing my perspective on how prayer likely works.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Directly attribute?

Is that a question?

Nah, I'll pass.

Then why bother mentioning it? I've got no idea what you meant.

 

[Chesterton]

Is that a question?

Yes.

Then why bother mentioning it? I've got no idea what you meant.

I mention it because it should be a simple general idea to understand, but I'm not giving details of my personal life on here, especially after your snarky "Merry Christmas".

 

[Ana the Ist]

I disagree with your assessment. Whatever the case might be, I am merely sharing my perspective on how prayer likely works.

Well first off...it's not "my assessment"...it's the assessment of physicists and those involved with the experiment.

What happened is that when this experiment became news, the term "observer" wasn't clarified to the reporters involved...and a bunch of them wrote the story as something that meant people could alter particle physics with their minds. Even a moment of thinking about this logically would show it makes no sense...after all, you can't observe particles with the naked eye.

These misconstrued reports led to a bunch of wild and baseless internet speculations about the nature of reality and the ability to alter it through consciousness. All the while, the same physicists were trying to tell people that no...that's not how the experiment works.

Those physicists eventually did several redundant experiments to prove that you can't alter particle physics with your mind...but that doesn't matter to people who want to believe in such things.

If anything, it's a good example of how people's emotions and desires can alter their beliefs regardless of what the actual evidence shows.