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Prayer Makes No Sense

Ana the Ist

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I've made threads about this in the past...and last time I got almost zero replies. I figured it's been long enough that maybe someone has an answer.

Prayer makes no sense to me...how is it supposed to work? I'm talking about the kind of prayer where ones asks god for "stuff". Now before everyone jumps in with the whole "god doesn't just grant wishes" answer...let's not pretend that we all don't know exactly what I'm talking about. People ask god for stuff all the time. Whether it's to find a marriage partner, or job, or money...or to cure mom's cancer, or give them a clear path in life...people ask god for stuff all the time. There's a whole section of this forum dedicated to prayer requests. People tell people that they'll pray for them...indicating that they want god to do something about the crisis that person is going through.

The most common answer I've seen is that god answers prayers in one of three basic ways...

1. Prayer granted.

2. Prayer not granted.

3. Maybe prayer will be granted later.

I'm just going to say this is a nonsense answer. We could say this about wishes or literally anything that can actually happen. Will it rain? Yes. No. Possibly later. Will I one day find true love? Yes. No. Possibly later.

That idea of prayer is literally no different than what we would expect if there was no god and prayers were never answered. So if that's your reply...please don't bother.

If anyone else wants to take a crack at answering this is a way that makes any sense whatsoever...I'm more than willing to consider your reply.

Merry Christmas.
 

Liza B.

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I've made threads about this in the past...and last time I got almost zero replies. I figured it's been long enough that maybe someone has an answer.

Prayer makes no sense to me...how is it supposed to work? I'm talking about the kind of prayer where ones asks god for "stuff". Now before everyone jumps in with the whole "god doesn't just grant wishes" answer...let's not pretend that we all don't know exactly what I'm talking about. People ask god for stuff all the time. Whether it's to find a marriage partner, or job, or money...or to cure mom's cancer, or give them a clear path in life...people ask god for stuff all the time. There's a whole section of this forum dedicated to prayer requests. People tell people that they'll pray for them...indicating that they want god to do something about the crisis that person is going through.

The most common answer I've seen is that god answers prayers in one of three basic ways...

1. Prayer granted.

2. Prayer not granted.

3. Maybe prayer will be granted later.

I'm just going to say this is a nonsense answer. We could say this about wishes or literally anything that can actually happen. Will it rain? Yes. No. Possibly later. Will I one day find true love? Yes. No. Possibly later.

That idea of prayer is literally no different than what we would expect if there was no god and prayers were never answered. So if that's your reply...please don't bother.

If anyone else wants to take a crack at answering this is a way that makes any sense whatsoever...I'm more than willing to consider your reply.

Merry Christmas.

Well, for those of us who have a relationship with God, it's not just about the answer you get. It's also about how you get that answer, and dealing with the answer. Rather like with a parent.

As an aside, your Merry Christmas after all of that is funny. I think atheists are increasingly agitated by Christmas--but it's not something we don't expect in these days, after all.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Give a listen to these testimonies at the beginning of this video. One gentleman had his head blown off and returns to testify of surviving it...


Care to just give an explanation? I guess I could've been clearer...but I'm not looking for testimonials of "prayers answered", especially not of the variety I have no way of confirming.

What I'm looking for is some kind of sensible explanation of how prayer works.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Well, for those of us who have a relationship with God, it's not just about the answer you get. It's also about how you get that answer, and dealing with the answer. Rather like with a parent.

I'm more than willing to listen to what you mean by this...

As it stands though, it's not really an explanation. All you've said is that it's about "more than what you ask for."

As an aside, your Merry Christmas after all of that is funny. I think atheists are increasingly agitated by Christmas--but it's not something we don't expect in these days, after all.

It wasn't meant as a joke....for those who believe and cherish this time of year I sincerely wish you a merry Christmas.
 
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rockytopva

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I'm more than willing to listen to what you mean by this...

As it stands though, it's not really an explanation. All you've said is that it's about "more than what you ask for."



It wasn't meant as a joke....for those who believe and cherish this time of year I sincerely wish you a merry Christmas.

I was brought up in the military and ended up in Michigan as an atheist teenager. I remember smoking a cigarette and overlooking the ice cold tundra wondering how on earth there could be a creator. When I was 17 and living with my grandmother here in Virginia I would wash dishes during the morning at a restaurant, put up hay in the afternoon, and go to revival during the evening. One night after revival I felt the Spirit of God speaking to my heart. There on my bed, with the katydids singing their night songs, I felt the Spirit of God come in and commune with me with great peace and spiritual experience.

My conversion is the same as GC Rankin before me. The difference being....

I started out Baptist, GC Rankin Presbyterian
I would work the hay field, GC Rankin the cottonfield
I would receive this in a Pentecostal Holiness church, GC Rankin Methodist
I came down with cigarettes, GC Rankin with a pistol of large make!
All in exact methods of GC Rankin 100 years before me!
We both were "tortured" (to use Rankin's very words) with religion, and then liberated by it.

"Grandfather was kind to me and considerate of me, yet he was strict with me. I worked along with him in the field when the weather was agreeable and when it was inclement I helped him in his hatter's shop, for the Civil War was in progress and he had returned at odd times to hatmaking. It was my business in the shop to stretch foxskins and coonskins across a wood-horse and with a knife, made for that purpose, pluck the hair from the fur. I despise the odor of foxskins and coonskins to this good day. He had me to walk two miles every Sunday to Dandridge to Church service and Sunday-school, rain or shine, wet or dry, cold or hot; yet he had fat horses standing in his stable. But he was such a blue-stocking Presbyterian that he never allowed a bridle to go on a horse's head on Sunday. The beasts had to have a day of rest. Old Doctor Minnis was the pastor, and he was the dryest and most interminable preacher I ever heard in my life. He would stand motionless and read his sermons from manuscript for one hour and a half at a time and sometimes longer. Grandfather would sit and never take his eyes off of him, except to glance at me to keep me quiet. It was torture to me." - George Clark Rankin


George Clark Rankin was then sent to Georgia after his grandfather could no longer care for him. With his belongings in a satchel he had a Colt's navy pistol of a large make. It was an old weapon, and what under the sun I wanted with it is a mystery to me to this good day. I reached the station in time to catch the eleven-o' clock train. I purchased my ticket and boarded the car for the first time in my life. I had one lone lorn fifty-cent piece left in my depleted purse, and that was the sum and substance of my finances for the rest of the trip. As the train whizzed along I looked first at the people and then through the window at the country and thought over my journey and what was to come of it. At nine o'clock we reached Dalton and disembarked. I had never been in a hotel. I saw one not far from the depot and went to it. I asked the clerk what he would charge me for a room that night and he said fifty cents. That was exactly my pile! I called for the accommodation, but before retiring I told him I wanted to leave very early the next morning for Spring Place and that I would pay him then, for no one would be up when I would leave. He smiled and took the silver half dollar. I went to my room, and solitude is no name for the room I occupied that night. After a while I fell into a sound sleep and awoke bright and early the next morning. It was not good daylight. I arose and hastened downstairs, and there sat the same clerk whom I had the night before it had never dawned on me that a hotel clerk sat up all night. I thanked him for his kindness and bade him good-bye in regular old country style.

It was not long until I was in the road and making tracks across the country to where my uncle lived. It was in 1866 and the marks of Sherman's march to the sea were everywhere visible. The country was very much out of repair and all around Dalton the earth was marked with breastworks. Every hill showed signs of war. Much of the fencing had not been restored and here and there I could see blackened chimneys still standing. After I had gotten out a few miles I stopped and took that old pistol with its belt and scabbard out of my satchel and buckled the war paraphernalia around my person on the outside of my coat. Just why I did this I cannot explain. I must have looked a caution in my homespun suit and rural air trudging along that highway with that old army pistol fastened around me. In going down a hill toward a ravine from which there was another hill in front of me I met two men horseback. They spoke to me and eyed me very curiously, but, strange to say, I could not tell why. Why would not men eye such a looking war arsenal as that? There were two others riding down the hill in front of me, and as the first two passed me they stopped and looked back at the others and shouted: "Lookout, boys, he is loaded!"

rankin78.jpg

In the course of an hour I was at my uncle's. He was surprised to see me, but gave me a cordial welcome. The first thing he did was to disarm me, and that ended my pistol-toting. I have never had one about my person or home to this good day. And I never will understand just why I had that one. A good dinner refreshed me and I soon unfolded my plans and they were satisfactory to my kind-hearted kinsman. He was in the midst of cotton-picking and that afternoon I went to the field and, with a long sack about my waist, had my first experience in the cottonfield. We then would get ready for the revival occurring that night…

After the team had been fed and we had been to supper we put the mules to the wagon, filled it with chairs and we were off to the meeting. When we reached the locality it was about dark and the people were assembling. Their horses and wagons filled up the cleared spaces and the singing was already in progress. My uncle and his family went well up toward the front, but I dropped into a seat well to the rear. It was an old-fashioned Church, ancient in appearance, oblong in shape and unpretentious. It was situated in a grove about one hundred yards from the road. It was lighted with old tallow-dip candles furnished by the neighbors. It was not a prepossessing-looking place, but it was soon crowded and evidently there was a great deal of interest. A cadaverous-looking man stood up in front with a tuning fork and raised and led the songs. There were a few prayers and the minister came in with his saddlebags and entered the pulpit. He was the Rev. W. H. Heath, the circuit rider. His prayer impressed me with his earnestness and there were many amens to it in the audience. I do not remember his text, but it was a typical revival sermon, full of unction and power.

At its close he invited penitents to the altar and a great many young people flocked to it and bowed for prayer. Many of them became very much affected and they cried out distressingly for mercy. It had a strange effect on me. It made me nervous and I wanted to retire. Directly my uncle came back to me, put his arm around my shoulder and asked me if I did not want to be religious. I told him that I had always had that desire, that mother had brought me up that way, and really I did not know anything else. Then he wanted to know if I had ever professed religion. I hardly understood what he meant and did not answer him. He changed his question and asked me if I had ever been to the altar for prayer, and I answered him in the negative. Then he earnestly besought me to let him take me up to the altar and join the others in being prayed for. It really embarrassed me and I hardly knew what to say to him. He spoke to me of my mother and said that when she was a little girl she went to the altar and that Christ accepted her and she had been a good Christian all these years. That touched me in a tender spot, for mother always did do what was right; and then I was far away from her and wanted to see her. Oh, if she were there to tell me what to do!

By and by I yielded to his entreaty and he led forward to the altar. The minister took me by the hand and spoke tenderly to me as I knelt at the altar. I had gone more out of sympathy than conviction, and I did not know what to do after I bowed there. The others were praying aloud and now and then one would rise shoutingly happy and make the old building ring with his glad praise. It was a novel experience to me. I did not know what to pray for, neither did I know what to expect if I did pray. I spent the most of the hour wondering why I was there and what it all meant. No one explained anything to me. Once in awhile some good old brother or sister would pass my way, strike me on the back and tell me to look up and believe and the blessing would come. But that was not encouraging to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense and the noise was distracting me. Even in my crude way of thinking I had an idea that religion was a sensible thing and that people ought to become religious intelligently and without all that hurrah. I presume that my ideas were the result of the Presbyterian training given to me by old grandfather. By and by my knees grew tired and the skin was nearly rubbed off my elbows. I thought the service never would close, and when it did conclude with the benediction I heaved a sigh of relief. That was my first experience at the mourner's bench.

As we drove home I did not have much to say, but I listened attentively to the conversation between my uncle and his wife. They were greatly impressed with the meeting, and they spoke first of this one and that one who had "come through" and what a change it would make in the community, as many of them were bad boys. As we were putting up the team my uncle spoke very encouragingly to me; he was delighted with the step I had taken and he pleaded with me not to turn back, but to press on until I found the pearl of great price. He knew my mother would be very happy over the start I had made. Before going to sleep I fell into a train of thought, though I was tired and exhausted. I wondered why I had gone to that altar and what I had gained by it. I felt no special conviction and had received no special impression, but then if my mother had started that way there must be something in it, for she always did what was right. I silently lifted my heart to God in prayer for conviction and guidance. I knew how to pray, for I had come up through prayer, but not the mourner's bench sort. So I determined to continue to attend the meeting and keep on going to the altar until I got religion.

Early the next morning I was up and in a serious frame of mind. I went with the other hands to the cottonfield and at noon I slipped off in the barn and prayed. But the more I thought of the way those young people were moved in the meeting and with what glad hearts they had shouted their praises to God the more it puzzled and confused me. I could not feel the conviction that they had and my heart did not feel melted and tender. I was callous and unmoved in feeling and my distress on account of sin was nothing like theirs. I did not understand my own state of mind and heart. It troubled me, for by this time I really wanted to have an experience like theirs.

When evening came I was ready for Church service and was glad to go. It required no urging. Another large crowd was present and the preacher was as earnest as ever. I did not give much heed to the sermon. In fact, I do not recall a word of it. I was anxious for him to conclude and give me a chance to go to the altar. I had gotten it into my head that there was some real virtue in the mourner's bench; and when the time came I was one of the first to prostrate myself before the altar in prayer. Many others did likewise. Two or three good people at intervals knelt by me and spoke encouragingly to me, but they did not help me. Their talks were mere exhortations to earnestness and faith, but there was no explanation of faith, neither was there any light thrown upon my mind and heart. I wrought myself up into tears and cries for help, but the whole situation was dark and I hardly knew why I cried, or what was the trouble with me. Now and then others would arise from the altar in an ecstasy of joy, but there was no joy for me. When the service closed I was discouraged and felt that maybe I was too hardhearted and the good Spirit could do nothing for me.

After we went home I tossed on the bed before going to sleep and wondered why God did not do for me what he had done for mother and what he was doing in that meeting for those young people at the altar. I could not understand it. But I resolved to keep on trying, and so dropped off to sleep. The next day I had about the same experience and at night saw no change in my condition. And so for several nights I repeated the same distressing experience. The meeting took on such interest that a day service was adopted along with the night exercises, and we attended that also. And one morning while I bowed at the altar in a very disturbed state of mind Brother Tyson, a good local preacher and the father of Rev. J. F. Tyson, now of the Central Conference, sat down by me and, putting his hand on my shoulder, said to me: "Now I want you to sit up awhile and let's talk this matter over quietly. I am sure that you are in earnest, for you have been coming to this altar night after night for several days. I want to ask you a few simple questions." And the following questions were asked and answered:

"My son, do you not love God?"

"I cannot remember when I did not love him."

"Do you believe on his Son, Jesus Christ?"

"I have always believed on Christ. My mother taught me that from my earliest recollection."

"Do you accept him as your Savior?"

"I certainly do, and have always done so."

"Can you think of any sin that is between you and the Savior?"

"No, sir; for I have never committed any bad sins."

"Do you love everybody?"

"Well, I love nearly everybody, but I have no ill-will toward any one. An old man did me a wrong not long ago and I acted ugly toward him, but I do not care to injure him."

"Can you forgive him?"

"Yes, if he wanted me to."

"But, down in your heart, can you wish him well?"

"Yes, sir; I can do that."

"Well, now let me say to you that if you love God, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior from sin and if you love your fellowmen and intend by God's help to lead a religious life, that's all there is to religion. In fact, that is all I know about it."

Then he repeated several passages of Scriptures to me proving his assertions. I thought a moment and said to him: "But I do not feel like these young people who have been getting religion night after night. I cannot get happy like them. I do not feel like shouting."

The good man looked at me and smiled and said: "Ah, that's your trouble. You have been trying to feel like them. Now you are not them; you are yourself. You have your own quiet disposition and you are not turned like them. They are excitable and blustery like they are. They give way to their feelings. That's all right, but feeling is not religion. Religion is faith and life. If you have violent feeling with it, all good and well, but if you have faith and not much feeling, why the feeling will take care of itself. To love God and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, turning away from all sin, and living a godly life, is the substance of true religion."

That was new to me, yet it had been my state of mind from childhood. For I remembered that away back in my early life, when the old preacher held services in my grandmother's house one day and opened the door of the Church, I went forward and gave him my hand. He was to receive me into full membership at the end of six months' probation, but he let it pass out of his mind and failed to attend to it.

As I sat there that morning listening to the earnest exhortation of the good man my tears ceased, my distress left me, light broke in upon my mind, my heart grew joyous, and before I knew just what I was doing I was going all around shaking hands with everybody, and my confusion and darkness disappeared and a great burden rolled off my spirit. I felt exactly like I did when I was a little boy around my mother's knee when she told of Jesus and God and Heaven. It made my heart thrill then, and the same old experience returned to me in that old country Church that beautiful September morning down in old North Georgia.

As we returned home the sun shone brighter, the birds sang sweeter and the autumn-time looked richer than ever before. My heart was light and my spirit buoyant. I had anchored my soul in the haven of rest, and there was not a ripple upon the current of my joy. That night there was no service and after supper I walked out under the great old pine trees and held communion with God. I thought of mother, and home, and Heaven.

I at once gave my name to the preacher for membership in the Church, and the following Sunday morning, along with many others, he received me into full membership in the Methodist Episcopal Church, South. It was one of the most delightful days in my recollection. It was the third Sunday in September, 1866, and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
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Liza B.

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I'm more than willing to listen to what you mean by this...

As it stands though, it's not really an explanation. All you've said is that it's about "more than what you ask for."

Right, I know. When a child asks a parent for something, the explanation for the no or yes matters too. It's not just a "no" or "yes" coming from the sky; it's the learning experience that results from the no or yes. And the love behind it.

It wasn't meant as a joke....for those who believe and cherish this time of year I sincerely wish you a merry Christmas.

I know it wasn't meant as a joke. But ask yourself this--and be perfectly honest. On one of the highest holy days of the Islamic calendar, would you dare to go to a Muslim forum and ask very pointed and potentially even offensive questions of them about their faith...and at the end of that long and very pointed question, say, "Happy Ramadan, by the way"?

I've never seen it. Not in nearly two decades of interacting with atheists. I never expect to see it. Yet we routinely see this of atheists. Ever wonder why?
 
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rockytopva

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Care to just give an explanation? I guess I could've been clearer...but I'm not looking for testimonials of "prayers answered", especially not of the variety I have no way of confirming.

What I'm looking for is some kind of sensible explanation of how prayer works.

My methods are posted here in my youtube channel...

rockytopva

Which went over a million views this past week.
 
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rockytopva

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If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Spiritual things are not natural - Therefore they cannot be bought
Spiritual things are not mental - Therefore they cannot be taught
Spiritual things are spiritual - To pick them up you must go where they exist.
 
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Philip_B

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#op

I actually think I get what you are saying, however I have never seen prayer as overly logical, nor do I see prayer as about shopping lists for God, for me prayer is more ontological that teleological.

There was a great seen in the movie Oh God with John Denver and George Burns where God says I have a message, you can do it, and the Christian says We need help and God says that's why I gave you each other.

When we look at all sorts of situations we don't know how to fix them, we don't even know what they are supposed to look like, does anybody know what peace in the Middle East looks like?

So simply I often pray Lord, in the darkness, Let your light shine.

Answered prayer would I guess represent empirical proof of the existence of God, and so extinguish the need for faith, which in a way seems counterintuitive, and would run the risk of the Church becoming a business, as Clement reminded us.
ClementOfAlexandria.jpg
 
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Tom 1

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I've made threads about this in the past...and last time I got almost zero replies. I figured it's been long enough that maybe someone has an answer.

Prayer makes no sense to me...how is it supposed to work? I'm talking about the kind of prayer where ones asks god for "stuff". Now before everyone jumps in with the whole "god doesn't just grant wishes" answer...let's not pretend that we all don't know exactly what I'm talking about. People ask god for stuff all the time. Whether it's to find a marriage partner, or job, or money...or to cure mom's cancer, or give them a clear path in life...people ask god for stuff all the time. There's a whole section of this forum dedicated to prayer requests. People tell people that they'll pray for them...indicating that they want god to do something about the crisis that person is going through.

The most common answer I've seen is that god answers prayers in one of three basic ways...

1. Prayer granted.

2. Prayer not granted.

3. Maybe prayer will be granted later.

I'm just going to say this is a nonsense answer. We could say this about wishes or literally anything that can actually happen. Will it rain? Yes. No. Possibly later. Will I one day find true love? Yes. No. Possibly later.

That idea of prayer is literally no different than what we would expect if there was no god and prayers were never answered. So if that's your reply...please don't bother.

If anyone else wants to take a crack at answering this is a way that makes any sense whatsoever...I'm more than willing to consider your reply.

Merry Christmas.

The only way I can think that you can answer this is to pray about something related to your question, I mean something person and complex about your own thinking process. Pray about what it means to you to be praying, how it just seems like nonsense and ask for different ways of thinking about it. Then be open to the ideas as they come to you over time - years, months, whatever. If you are expecting some kind of ‘shazam’ answer that makes immediate sense, it’s your thinking that is at fault, not the issue you are thinking about.
 
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Monna

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There is 'praying' and there is 'praying.'
Prayer is about spending time with God. It is not a one-way monologue.
My own meager experience is that praying does more to and for me, that for those for whom I'm praying.

There was a time when I would not repeat the Lord's prayer. It is actually quite scary when you think about what you are really saying. When I pray "let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" I get a very strong echo right back at me "Yes, Monna, that means YOU!" We ask God to provide what we need for the day, not what we want today, tomorrow and throughout the future. One day at a time. "Don't lead me into temptation.." comes back "Yes Monna, don't put yourself where you know you will be tempted."

I have had quite a few answers to prayer, but one that was prophetic, though I didn't know it at the time. I was fifteen, and had just learned that I had lost everything - my home (for the second time), my family, and my future just disappeared into the abyss. I cried "Help" to the Lord. There was nothing else I could do.

And the Lord answered me there and then: "Don't be afraid" he said (that's how I knew it was him), "I can make every situation turn out for the good" And I recognised Romans 8:28. Immediately after that it was as if I had been thrown in a shower; I was drenched in something from top to bottom. As it flowed off me, I was left with the most incredible peace and security I have ever felt, before or since. I interpreted this at the time to mean that the news I had received was not true, and my family was OK. It was a couple of weeks later that I found out they were OK - though the home and everything in it was lost.

I thought that was all. But 55 years later I know that his promise that everything would be OK was meant for my entire life. That doesn't mean it has been a bed a roses, not at all. But I have seen his hand in everything.

So I do believe in the power of prayer.
 
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ananda

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I've made threads about this in the past...and last time I got almost zero replies. I figured it's been long enough that maybe someone has an answer.

Prayer makes no sense to me...how is it supposed to work? I'm talking about the kind of prayer where ones asks god for "stuff". Now before everyone jumps in with the whole "god doesn't just grant wishes" answer...let's not pretend that we all don't know exactly what I'm talking about. People ask god for stuff all the time. Whether it's to find a marriage partner, or job, or money...or to cure mom's cancer, or give them a clear path in life...people ask god for stuff all the time. There's a whole section of this forum dedicated to prayer requests. People tell people that they'll pray for them...indicating that they want god to do something about the crisis that person is going through.

The most common answer I've seen is that god answers prayers in one of three basic ways...

1. Prayer granted.

2. Prayer not granted.

3. Maybe prayer will be granted later.

I'm just going to say this is a nonsense answer. We could say this about wishes or literally anything that can actually happen. Will it rain? Yes. No. Possibly later. Will I one day find true love? Yes. No. Possibly later.

That idea of prayer is literally no different than what we would expect if there was no god and prayers were never answered. So if that's your reply...please don't bother.

If anyone else wants to take a crack at answering this is a way that makes any sense whatsoever...I'm more than willing to consider your reply.

Merry Christmas.
In light of Buddhist metaphysics and recent observations regarding quantum physics which are in tune with said metaphysics, I believe that prayer is simply one crude form of directed, volitional attention.

IMO it is the energy behind this conscious attention which alters reality around us to a certain degree. The amount of will (total energy), combined with intent (directing that energy in a specific "direction"), combined with the strength of mindful concentration (focusing that energy as we would focus sunlight with a magnifying glass) - along with the consideration that the energy of conscious attention from others are also interfering or assisting - are all factors involved in the process.
 
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Ana the Ist

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In light of Buddhist metaphysics and recent observations regarding quantum physics which are in tune with said metaphysics, I believe that prayer is simply one crude form of directed, volitional attention.

IMO it is the energy behind this conscious attention which alters reality around us to a certain degree.


I'll just stop you there since there's nothing in physics that says consciousness alters reality.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ana the Ist

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#op

I actually think I get what you are saying, however I have never seen prayer as overly logical, nor do I see prayer as about shopping lists for God, for me prayer is more ontological that teleological.

There was a great seen in the movie Oh God with John Denver and George Burns where God says I have a message, you can do it, and the Christian says We need help and God says that's why I gave you each other.

When we look at all sorts of situations we don't know how to fix them, we don't even know what they are supposed to look like, does anybody know what peace in the Middle East looks like?

So simply I often pray Lord, in the darkness, Let your light shine.

Answered prayer would I guess represent empirical proof of the existence of God, and so extinguish the need for faith, which in a way seems counterintuitive, and would run the risk of the Church becoming a business, as Clement reminded us.

So...you can't really expect god to do anything, as everything happens according to his will?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I've made threads about this in the past...and last time I got almost zero replies. I figured it's been long enough that maybe someone has an answer.

Prayer makes no sense to me...how is it supposed to work? I'm talking about the kind of prayer where ones asks god for "stuff". Now before everyone jumps in with the whole "god doesn't just grant wishes" answer...let's not pretend that we all don't know exactly what I'm talking about. People ask god for stuff all the time. Whether it's to find a marriage partner, or job, or money...or to cure mom's cancer, or give them a clear path in life...people ask god for stuff all the time. There's a whole section of this forum dedicated to prayer requests. People tell people that they'll pray for them...indicating that they want god to do something about the crisis that person is going through.

The most common answer I've seen is that god answers prayers in one of three basic ways...

1. Prayer granted.

2. Prayer not granted.

3. Maybe prayer will be granted later.

I'm just going to say this is a nonsense answer. We could say this about wishes or literally anything that can actually happen. Will it rain? Yes. No. Possibly later. Will I one day find true love? Yes. No. Possibly later.

That idea of prayer is literally no different than what we would expect if there was no god and prayers were never answered. So if that's your reply...please don't bother.

If anyone else wants to take a crack at answering this is a way that makes any sense whatsoever...I'm more than willing to consider your reply.

Merry Christmas.

Hi Ana,

If this question is of special importance to you, then I wouldn't spend much time here on a public forum seeking less than the best answers. I'd instead read the following books from those who have some well-thought out answers:

1) The God Who Hears - W. Bingham Hunter

2) When God Doesn't Answer Your Prayer - Jerry Sittser

3) Why Is God Ignoring Me - Gary R. Habermas

I'm particularly impressed with the first book that I've listed above, but the other two are good, too.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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