Prayer in School

[D McCloud]

You know why there isn't any prayer? It is because they are teaching a religion in just about every public school and it would offen that religion.That religion is called evolution.

WHAT!?? not this again. First off, evolution is not a religion, it's a science, look up the definition of a religion. Secondly, evolution does not conflict with religion because evolution doesn't deny or affirm the existence of a god. Finally, prayer is not and should not be organized in a public school setting because of the first amendment.

 

[In A Perfect World]

If Kids want to pray quietly at lunch or at recess and is not disturbing anyone,then i see no problem with it.But when they are in the classroom they should'nt be praying but paying attention to the teacher.God Bless

 

[Brimshack]

Is having a moment in silence to pray such a bad thing for schools? Noone is telling them to pray, just to observe a moment of silence. We do it all the time for tragedies and for those who passed away? What is the big deal about this?

The problem with this is that it is a thinly veiled attempt to slip prayer into schools under the guise of a religious neutral event. A small moment of silence has no real function in school; it is advocated only by those who wish to see it used for religious purposes.

 

[mattjay]

Religion should be a personal thing, it should be left at home/elsewhere.

 

[UberLutheran]

I just assumed that all schools would teach their students enough German grammar and vocabulary to learn proper German prayers and Luther's Small Catechism (in the mother tongue, of course!) and to be able to recite and discuss the Athanasian Creed, the Book of Concord, and the Augsburg Confession -- in German.

Anybody have a problem with this? No? Good -- then we're all in agreement!

 

[Brimshack]

No! This is America, and the prayers should be American prayers. I think the kids should all be encouraged to participate in the rites of the Native American church every morning. Of course this will require extensive peyote farming, but hey, it's a nice syncretic religion. Surely, o one would object.

 

[Nymphalidae]

If they can't shut up for one minute, they need to learn some respect for authority.
I remember a teacher who would lead us in prayer and Bible songs in 2nd grade, in a public school. Sure miss those good old days, before everything got so stinkin' PC.
BTW, student led prayer is perfectly acceptable, to my understanding.

I also miss the good ol' days when we didn't have indoor plumbing and minorities and women were second class citizens. Yep, those were the good ol' days.

 

[Nymphalidae]

You know why there isn't any prayer? It is because they are teaching a religion in just about every public school and it would offen that religion.That religion is called evolution.

Thanks for the laugh

 

[ebia]

I could care less about how the kids can't shut up. I can easily change that scenario real quick. Just some of the things I've picked up being a Marine leader.

If that's what you really think, you aren't cut out to be a teacher.

You line of reasoning is the very reason why I posted this thread. You would assume that since I am a Christian, I am disguising my "moment of silence", to mean prayer. That is not what I said, and that is not what I mean. People can do whatever they want during their moment of silence. Its just an oppurtunity to reflect on what the day has to hold for them. I plan on teaching when I get out of the Corps, and I will allow my students a moment of silence before class begins. This is to help them reflect back on what to expect.

The only things they are likely be reflecting on are whatever they were doing at recess or intend to do at lunch. Getting students to reflect on anything worthwhile requires much more than providing some silence.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

If that's what you really think, you aren't cut out to be a teacher.

Actually, I am cut out to be a teacher, and I plan to do just that. I don't think you quite understand the concept of what a good teacher does. They don't let their kids get unruly, and they don't let a group like the ACLU run their lives, just because a student may get upset over a cross keychain.

For the issue of Prayer in School, I am all for it. I started this thread to see the response of everyone and to see how I would be perceived as a bad guy, and I can quickly see how everyone will react. Christians and Non-Christians today, are all the same. We judge others, so therefore we must pass judgment upon them. I have done it to others and others have done it to me. This is what's wrong with society. We are fighting over trivial issues, such as prayer and the pleadge in schools, when we should be trying to fight off poverty and diseases.

 

[ebia]

Actually, I am cut out to be a teacher, and I plan to do just that. I don't think you quite understand the concept of what a good teacher does.

I hate to break it to you, but I am a teacher, so I've got a rather better idea of what the job entails and what does and does not work than you have.

I have also seen first hand that you can't tell who will make a good teacher and who won't until they get into the classroom and do the job, but those who enter the profession with the kind of arrogance in their abilities you are showing here have a lower success rate than those who expect to start out learning more from the students than the students do from them.

Oh, and if you read carefully you will find that I never said your "moment of silence" was anything to do with prayer. I work in a Catholic school and I don't have a problem with prayer in the classroom. But I do know that if you force the kids into a moment of silence, they are not going to be thinking about anything constructive. If you want them to reflect on anything worthwhile, they will have to teach them how - and that is a major job.

 

[wanderingone]

If they can't shut up for one minute, they need to learn some respect for authority.
I remember a teacher who would lead us in prayer and Bible songs in 2nd grade, in a public school. Sure miss those good old days, before everything got so stinkin' PC.
BTW, student led prayer is perfectly acceptable, to my understanding.

VOLUNTARY student led prayer during NON-INSTRUCTIONAL periods "may" be okay, depending who coerces the students into praying....

Personally I prefer my children get their instruction in faith at home, and through our church. My kids don't need faith instruction from someone at school who may believe entirely different things than we do. My daughter's class last year included children from 7 different faiths, what prayers should the teacher lead them in? Nobody stops my kids from saying a prayer in school and this constant need for public prayer is a rather bizarre concept for Christians imho.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

I hate to break it to you, but I am a teacher, so I've got a rather better idea of what the job entails and what does and does not work than you have.

I have also seen first hand that you can't tell who will make a good teacher and who won't until they get into the classroom and do the job, but those who enter the profession with the kind of arrogance in their abilities you are showing here have a lower success rate than those who expect to start out learning more from the students than the students do from them.

Oh, and if you read carefully you will find that I never said your "moment of silence" was anything to do with prayer. I work in a Catholic school and I don't have a problem with prayer in the classroom. But I do know that if you force the kids into a moment of silence, they are not going to be thinking about anything constructive. If you want them to reflect on anything worthwhile, they will have to teach them how - and that is a major job.

On the issue you of you not knowing what a good teacher is, I stand corrected. As for my arrogance, just get in line, as so many before you have thought I was arrogant until you've actually met me. I have taught in the classroom environment. As a matter of fact, I've given several lectures since I've been in the miilitary, so teaching high school is not going to be difficult for me.

As for the prayer issue, I was not specifically targeting you out, and I placed the blame on everyone, including myself, for all the trival fighting we do as Christians. I hold myself accountable for my actions, as do I hold others. I want them to hold me accountable, and don't worry, I take no offense when someone corrects me, whether they are right or not. Prayer in school is great, but if the law says we are not to have it, then we must obey the law.

 

[ebia]

On the issue you of you not knowing what a good teacher is, I stand corrected. As for my arrogance, just get in line, as so many before you have thought I was arrogant until you've actually met me.

Fair enough. On-line one can only form an opinion of someone based on what they write.

I have taught in the classroom environment. As a matter of fact, I've given several lectures since I've been in the miilitary, so teaching high school is not going to be difficult for me.

Teaching kids is very different to teaching adults, and school teaching is very different to lecturing. Even being the only adult in the room, responsible for everything, is a very different environment to when you do school placements during your teacher training and the normal classroom teacher is there at the back of the room watching what happens. You can't really find out whether you've got what it takes until you've got your qualification, got a job, and got out there doing it.

 

[Ledifni]

Actually, I am cut out to be a teacher, and I plan to do just that. I don't think you quite understand the concept of what a good teacher does. They don't let their kids get unruly, and they don't let a group like the ACLU run their lives, just because a student may get upset over a cross keychain.

For the issue of Prayer in School, I am all for it. I started this thread to see the response of everyone and to see how I would be perceived as a bad guy, and I can quickly see how everyone will react. Christians and Non-Christians today, are all the same. We judge others, so therefore we must pass judgment upon them. I have done it to others and others have done it to me. This is what's wrong with society. We are fighting over trivial issues, such as prayer and the pleadge in schools, when we should be trying to fight off poverty and diseases.

Prayer in schools is a trivial issue to you because you know that in America, the prayers will be primarily Christian. It is no more a trivial issue for us than it would be for you if David Koresh ran your school and held organized prayer.

 

[tcampen]

Is having a moment in silence to pray such a bad thing for schools? Noone is telling them to pray, just to observe a moment of silence. We do it all the time for tragedies and for those who passed away? What is the big deal about this?

While the U.S. Constitution prohibits government endorsed prayer, which prayer in school is, I have no problem with a moment of silence (like a minute) to begin the day. Some may pray, other meditate, others think about the pending exam about to begin. Overall, it can be a very calming effect to the start of classes, and promote productivity, without promoting any particular religious doctrine or belief.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

Prayer in schools is a trivial issue to you because you know that in America, the prayers will be primarily Christian. It is no more a trivial issue for us than it would be for you if David Koresh ran your school and held organized prayer.

Apparently, you have me figured wrong. Prayer in school is trivial and not becasue I live in the U.S. In fact, all religions are being targeted by the ACLU and the rest of the left, not just Christianity. It's getting the big news, because allot of the Washington leadership is primarily Christianity, and our laws have a foundation in it.

The issue of prayer to me is trivial because Christ said we should not make a big deal about prayer. What we should be doing is assisting the poor and homless, and improving education and trying to clean up the mess we have made for ourselves. Maybe if you would stop and take the time to know someone, you would realize they are not a nutjob that you would assume every Christian is. Please provide facts with your statements. If you need Bible Verses, which are the only sources I have of Jesus's teachings, please let me know, and I will PM them to you.

 

[tcampen]

Apparently, you have me figured wrong. Prayer in school is trivial and not becasue I live in the U.S. In fact, all religions are being targeted by the ACLU and the rest of the left, not just Christianity. It's getting the big news, because allot of the Washington leadership is primarily Christianity, and our laws have a foundation in it.

The ACLU is does not target religion, but violations of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment by government agencies. There is a difference. I've never seen the ACLU try to prevent people from worshipping in their churches, or try to legislate people following their own spiritual beliefs in their temples, homes, etc. Let us try not to confuse enforcing constitutional protections with "targeting" religion.

Furthermore, the "left" is not targeting religion either. There are just as many religious people on the left as are on the right - they simply may have different religious views, or the how the government should interact with religion.

Finally, while our laws in the U.S. do have some foundation in Christian ideals, the laws have far greater foundations in other sources, such as Roman law, the Magna Carta, and the raw experiences of the then colonists under English rule. Laws passed by the legislatures today are based in reason, not adherance to a particular religious belief or concept.

Just thought this would be helpful.

 

[Yusuf Evans]

The ACLU is does not target religion, but violations of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment by government agencies. There is a difference. I've never seen the ACLU try to prevent people from worshipping in their churches, or try to legislate people following their own spiritual beliefs in their temples, homes, etc. Let us try not to confuse enforcing constitutional protections with "targeting" religion.

Furthermore, the "left" is not targeting religion either. There are just as many religious people on the left as are on the right - they simply may have different religious views, or the how the government should interact with religion.

Then why is having the Ten Commandments in a Court House such a big deal. With the exception of the First Commandment, where else do the Commandments condone one belief over another? Fights like these are what drive the nutjobs on both sides of the house and sometimes the ACLU. Yes, Judeo-Christian teachings have a part in our governmental procedueres and the laws governing our nation, and I'm well aware of the contribution other cultures have made in the influence of our laws.

The second part of my thread was never answered, so I guess therefore, someone must not realize what I really strive for, and that is not forced religion. I do not believe in it. Everyone can worship as they want to worship. We all have to deal with the afterlife and the consequences of our actions, to include Christians. What I am saying is that arguments concerning the issue of Freedom of Speech and the Constitution in reference to trivial issues, such as prayer in schools, the Pledge, and the Ten Commandment fiasco, along with the ACLU suing all of these governmental departments and school boards for showing religious symbols where people in the public can see is ridiculous. How about helping out the poor, suing for better education, not suing just because a kid is disciplined. How about that? Is seeing a cross in a school, or the Ten Commandments so disgusting to you that you would do everything in your power to remove it, even though the only thing wrong with the school, is that kids are dropping out like flies and cannot pass competency tests. Really?

 

[tcampen]

Then why is having the Ten Commandments in a Court House such a big deal. With the exception of the First Commandment, where else do the Commandments condone one belief over another? Fights like these are what drive the nutjobs on both sides of the house and sometimes the ACLU. Yes, Judeo-Christian teachings have a part in our governmental procedueres and the laws governing our nation, and I'm well aware of the contribution other cultures have made in the influence of our laws.

The purpose of putting the Ten Commandment up on the wall is not because they are 9 good, secular ideas. It is because the authority behind those laws (the 10 Commandments are God's laws) explicitly come from God. Nothing could be a more clear example of government establishing religion when placed in a courthouse.

Of note, the U.S. Supreme Court itself depicts Moses holding up the 10 Commandments. However, it also depicts Confucious, Mohammed, Napolean and other law-givers throughout history. As such, it does not establish a preference of own religion over any other, and has a clear secular purpose. See the difference?

The second part of my thread was never answered, so I guess therefore, someone must not realize what I really strive for, and that is not forced religion. I do not believe in it. Everyone can worship as they want to worship. We all have to deal with the afterlife and the consequences of our actions, to include Christians. What I am saying is that arguments concerning the issue of Freedom of Speech and the Constitution in reference to trivial issues, such as prayer in schools, the Pledge, and the Ten Commandment fiasco, along with the ACLU suing all of these governmental departments and school boards for showing religious symbols where people in the public can see is ridiculous. How about helping out the poor, suing for better education, not suing just because a kid is disciplined. How about that? Is seeing a cross in a school, or the Ten Commandments so disgusting to you that you would do everything in your power to remove it, even though the only thing wrong with the school, is that kids are dropping out like flies and cannot pass competency tests. Really?

A violation of the U.S. Constitution should be disgusting to anyone. While some may dislike organizations, like the ACLU, for exposing such violations through lawsuits, just sticking one's head in the sand doesn't make it any less a violation.

Furthermore, the ACLU has no authority or power. It is the courts that decide. Many issues, like school prayer, go all the way up to the U.S. Supreme court. If you have a problem with the legal conclusions of these judicial bodies, then let's heart it. But please don't criticize the outcome just because you don't like it. The Supreme Court does not hand down rulings based on simple fiat. It is based on law, precedent and reason. Thus, if anyone wants to coherently criticize the decision, then explain why the Court's reasoning was wrong. Where is the flaw in the analysis? Don't just say "I don't like it" or "What's the harm?" or "Aren't there more important things to worry about?"

Are there other problems in schools that seem to make hanging a list of 10 religious rules trivial in comparison? Maybe. But when we blatently fail to enforce the law - especially the U.S. Constitution - how can we reasonably expect our children to learn anything. I believe it is not an either/or choice. We can follow the law AND improve education.