Prayer - am I missing something?

[Quaero]

Okay, Christians constantly tell me that when they are praying the feel closer to God. So why is it that when I try I end up feeling like I'm talking to an empty room? I've been reading through the Gospel of John and meditating on it, tried sitting in silence praying, tried praying whilst out on a walk.... to a resounding sense of nothingness.

Am I missing the whole point of prayer? There are people who dedicate their whole lives to praying and finding God, and I cant help but feel that they know something I don't.

anyone?

 

[JohnDB]

God is what we call Omnicient.
Which amongst meaning a lot of other things means that He knows everything.
Now I know that in the Bible it says that the prayers of the unrighteous will not be heard is a bit of a metaphor. What that means is that God will behave in a manner as to lead a person to believe that they didn't get heard...but the real truth is somewhat different.

God hears all prayers. He especially pays close attention to those that are from His Children. (Which means that some that call themselves his children really aren't)

On a few occasions God has chosen to remind me...very poignantly and in His very customary manner that He is listening and paying attention...and for me to watch my language and manner with which I speak to him...after all...He made this place and is the God of the Universe with which I have access to.

I would NOT reccomend speaking to God in an irreverant fashion...very unhealthy to do so...K?

Many a "seeker" of God pray to him expecting God to behave in such a manner as to prove God exists and that God needs them. They try to make deals with God. (as if God needs anything) They somehow misunderstand that God is good...and wants things for our benefit...not his. He is the Maker of souls and gold. We have nothing of value to offer...not even ourselves.

So, when I speak to God I give him praise...adoration...ask for forgiveness of my poor behavior...and for things that He might think that I can use...and for others.

Feelings?
I feel hot, cold, afraid, in love, lonely, crowded, or harrassed...these are feelings and not neccesarily accurate.

But...FYI the Jews used to have degrees of prayers.

Petition: regular things that are said over and over again...kinda like memorized prayer..."thank you for the food, send the messiah, send us some blessings, watch over my children"...these were the weakest kind of prayer.

Loud Cries: These were things that were asked for rather strongly...with real emotion backing them. Such things were things that were very important to the petitioner for usually relief of some kind. It was thought that God paid a little more attention to these prayers than regular petitions.

Tears: There is no barrier that these types of prayers didn't cut through. These kinds of prayers are always on the "front burner" of God. Any parent can tell you that they can hear their child's cry clearly no matter how many other children in the room are crying at the same time. Always is noticed by God.

The answering of Prayers in Biblical literature has a scheme of things too...even if it isn't expressly written out the theme is followed.

God hears the prayers and listens to them.
God then looks to see if the prayers and concerns are true and if something is needed to be done.
God then becomes concerned, remembers his promises.

God then acts in some way...(a good time to run and hide if I were an atheist...but that is the problem usually for them...they don't know to get out of the way of that steamroller heading for them and they don't listen to reason either)

 

[Johnnz]

Some people are far too experience oriented. Have you ever had 'hunches' that turned out right? What do you do that you really enjoy?

John
NZ

 

[aiki]

Okay, Christians constantly tell me that when they are praying the feel closer to God. So why is it that when I try I end up feeling like I'm talking to an empty room? I've been reading through the Gospel of John and meditating on it, tried sitting in silence praying, tried praying whilst out on a walk.... to a resounding sense of nothingness.

Am I missing the whole point of prayer? There are people who dedicate their whole lives to praying and finding God, and I cant help but feel that they know something I don't.

anyone?

Do you know who it is to whom you are praying? You say "God," but who is that exactly? Do you know? As a Christian I have a very distinct and well-defined idea of who it is to whom I pray. As a result, my prayers are more precisely intended and directed. In a way, its a bit like knowing the address of someone to whom you want to send a letter. Sending a letter without the address either gets the letter sent back to you or it gets lost forever in the dark recesses of some sorting room. I think, to some degree, our prayers are like letters sent to God. Without an "address" on them, they simply get "lost" or "returned". God isn't some amorphous character, some strange, formless force riding a cloud, or hiding in some other dimension for only the most clever and persistent to find. No, He is my Heavenly Father to whom I have access through His Son, Jesus Christ. Can you say the same? I think until you can, you will continue to feel a "resounding sense of nothingness" when you pray.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes unto the Father but by me." You really want to talk to God? You'll have to go through his Son.

Peace to you.

 

[Johnnz]

I just cannot be satisfied with believing that such coincidences (which, as uncommon as they may be, must be happening to someone at every moment) add up to contact from the creator of the universe. Can't an all-powerful God make himself unambiguously understood?

Of course, maybe I'm just not doing it right.

Of course you can have some questions about such experiences. But declaring them to be 'just coincidences' is a statement of belief in something - randomness, fate..?

As a Christian I see all good as derived from God. Therefore, all truly good experiences have God behind them. On that basis we all experience God on a pretty regular basis. It's just making that link back to God that changes things.

John
NZ

 

[JohnDB]

This is the way it seems to me. If God is out there, and he is omniscient, then he knows exactly what it would take to turn me, in an instant, into a fervent believer. So why doesn't he do it? Does he want me to burn forever?

I'm also curious about the reason to which you think atheists aren't listening.

What makes you think that God needs you?
The truth of the situation is that you need him infinately more than He needs you. God is omnipotent...meaning that He not only does all power come from him your next breath isn't just at his acquiecense...it is at His active support.
You aren't a Nebucchadnezzar sort(so you don't have a captured audience of millions)...you are an average fellow posting that he is his own god and that those of us who believe otherwise are rather foolish. (a rather normal and common atheist)

God would like for you to worship him for your benefit...not his. He will respect your wishes though and give you room and clearance to have you attempt to save yourself...good luck with that considering that He is Omnipotent.

 

[drich0150]

Okay, Christians constantly tell me that when they are praying the feel closer to God. So why is it that when I try I end up feeling like I'm talking to an empty room? I've been reading through the Gospel of John and meditating on it, tried sitting in silence praying, tried praying whilst out on a walk.... to a resounding sense of nothingness.

Am I missing the whole point of prayer? There are people who dedicate their whole lives to praying and finding God, and I cant help but feel that they know something I don't.

anyone?

Often time the difference between being able to experience God in our lives and "Speaking to an empty room." is the condition of your heart. Ask God for the gift of the Holy Spirit, ask him to prepare you to receive this gift. I have found when you ask God for this you will face some hardship that will have you deal with what ever it is in your life preventing you and God from properly communicating.. You can not have anything in your heart that you want or love more than you do him. (Health, wealth, Life, knowledge, women, widsom..) whatever it is free yourself from it if you find you can not then ask God to take from you... You keep praying this prayer and keep asking for the Holy Spirit till you get what it is you seek.

This principle is modeled in this parable that can be found in Luke 11:
1One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."

2He said to them, "When you pray, say:
" 'Father,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
3Give us each day our daily bread.
4Forgive us our sins,
for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.
5Then he said to them, "Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.'
7"Then the one inside answers, 'Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.' 8I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

 

[Johnnz]

A "belief in randomness" seems a bit dramatic to me. Randomness exists. We know that things happen randomly. Experiment demonstrates this.

You declare your remarkable experiences to be derived from God. That's a much more contrived belief than mine. How can you demonstrate that your experiences are derived from God?

I'm sure your own experiences are sufficient to demonstrate to you that God exists, but they will not do so for me. My own experiences have not done so.



But you've chosen to make that link arbitrarily. You haven't cited any evidence. If that's good enough for you, I suppose that's fine, but it's not good enough to me.

Besides, didn't God create everything? Doesn't that mean that all evil is derived from God as well?

We either believe in some cohesive 'someone' behind our reality or we deny that possibility. The later means there is nothing purposeful behind matter. That was behind my use of the word 'randomness'.

Demonstration is not the best word to use. We can use terms like good and evil. But either we attach some reasonable basis for labeling something good or bad, or those words just mean 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant' ie they have a psychological 'value only not a real moral basis. It's my Christian beliefs that allow me to assign a values with a basis beyond the events themselves.

The link is not arbitrary but logical, as indicated above. For the term 'good' to mean anything other than personal preference there must be a reasonable basis for holding to that view. Otherwise you end up with subjectivity or dualism.

John
NZ

 

[Johnnz]

We can attach a reasonable definition to good and evil without any need for a deity. For instance, we can define good in terms of what we wish for our society, and evil as that which detracts from that vision. The alternative is to define good as that which pleases God, and evil as that which angers him. In that case you are not being good because it's the right thing to do, but because you fear God's anger. Further, that puts anyone who believes in that manner in danger of going on a rape and pillage spree the instant his faith wavers. Better by far to define good in terms of the world we would like to live in.


Morality can only be subjective. This is evidenced by the fact that no two groups of people agree on what is moral. Morality will always be defined by the shared desires and aversions of a particular group of people.

I'm not sure what you mean by dualism in this context.

Here you are wrong. When we say something like 'that's good' or 'that's evil' that is only a statement of personal preference unless you are appealing to some other standard which we are 'meant' to accept. I don't mind you having personal preferences provided you live them out consistently. That means you will accept as equally valid any position sincerely held by any other person. That's what a subjective morality means in practice.

The best (in terms of logic yet ease of understanding) book to get your head around this is C S Lewis Mere Christianity. The first section does not assume a Christian position, and is a logical analysis of commonly used moral terminology.

Dualism is where we posit two equal and independent realities - good and evil.

John
NZ

 

[Johnnz]

Not quite. I don't think personal preference is a strong enough word. It's not just what I regard as moral, but what everyone around me regards as moral. To an extent, societies define their morality through what laws are enforced. It doesn't matter what my opinion on murder is, as my fellow humans won't be keen to let me get away with it.

OK. I've usually heard it used to refer to a metaphysical position, that there are two fundamental kinds of "stuff" in the universe: matter and spirit.

On that basis 9/11 was morally correct if you are a Muslim activist. Right?

That is the other common meaning of the term.

John
NZ

 

[chilehed]

Okay, Christians constantly tell me that when they are praying the feel closer to God. So why is it that when I try I end up feeling like I'm talking to an empty room?...

The purpose of prayer isn't really to feel closer to God, it's to be closer to God. My feelings aren't entirely relevant.

Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta went for years not having any feeling of the presence of God - none.

So don't worry about your feelings. Just keep praying.

 

[Catherineanne]

Originally Posted by soul_biscuit

This is the way it seems to me. If God is out there, and he is omniscient, then he knows exactly what it would take to turn me, in an instant, into a fervent believer. So why doesn't he do it? Does he want me to burn forever?
​

No, he does not want you to burn forever. Nor will you.

Maybe God likes you better the way you are. I would agree with him, if this happened to be the case. Given a choice between tea and biscuits with your average atheist and your average fervent believer, I would have to choose the former. Less likelihood of indigestion.

 

[Catherineanne]

There are people who dedicate their whole lives to praying and finding God, and I cant help but feel that they know something I don't.

anyone?

Yes, they know something you don't. That the presence of God is not determined by our feelings, but by our faith.

If you have faith that God is there, and can do without the warm fuzzy glow inside, then that is honouring God. If you have to have the warm fuzzy glow as well, I suggest you cuddle a hot water bottle, and use it sacramentally. In other words, as an outward and visible sign of an inner and spiritual grace.

Faith is not about feelings, but about faith. Accept that, and continue to pray, and one day the feelings will happen, all by themselves.

 

[Catherineanne]

Do you know who it is to whom you are praying? You say "God," but who is that exactly? Do you know? As a Christian I have a very distinct and well-defined idea of who it is to whom I pray. As a result, my prayers are more precisely intended and directed. In a way, its a bit like knowing the address of someone to whom you want to send a letter. Sending a letter without the address either gets the letter sent back to you or it gets lost forever in the dark recesses of some sorting room. I think, to some degree, our prayers are like letters sent to God. Without an "address" on them, they simply get "lost" or "returned". God isn't some amorphous character, some strange, formless force riding a cloud, or hiding in some other dimension for only the most clever and persistent to find. No, He is my Heavenly Father to whom I have access through His Son, Jesus Christ. Can you say the same? I think until you can, you will continue to feel a "resounding sense of nothingness" when you pray.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes unto the Father but by me." You really want to talk to God? You'll have to go through his Son.

Peace to you.

I disagree. God is not accessed using magic words of any kind, not can our prayers get lost in the post if we get the abracadabra wrong.

If any of us speak, he will hear. The 'sense of nothingness' that Christians sometimes encounter does not indicate that he is not hearing, but rather that he is seeking faith, not emotional experience, as the foundation for our belief.

Meanwhile the words we use are irrelevant. What matters is whether our heart is right before God or not. If your heart is right you can address God as Homer Simpson, and he will hear, and answer.

 

[aiki]

I disagree. God is not accessed using magic words of any kind, not can our prayers get lost in the post if we get the abracadabra wrong.

Magic words? Did I say anything about magic words? No. I did urge the one to whom I was responding to have some idea about who it was to whom they were speaking.

If any of us speak, he will hear.

Insofar as God is omniscient, yes. He is aware of everything, He hears everything, He sees everything. The hearing you're thinking of, however, depends on whether or not our words are directed toward Him. Except for an instance where a person is looking for God and asking Him to make Himself apparent, a non-Christian addressing prayers to the Great Whatever is a useless endeavour.

The 'sense of nothingness' that Christians sometimes encounter does not indicate that he is not hearing, but rather that he is seeking faith, not emotional experience, as the foundation for our belief.

My post wasn't directed toward those who are saved.

Meanwhile the words we use are irrelevant. What matters is whether our heart is right before God or not. If your heart is right you can address God as Homer Simpson, and he will hear, and answer.

No, you're quite mistaken. If your "heart is right," you most certainly won't be addressing God as "Homer Simpson." I think you are overstating your point. If the words we use are truly "irrelevant" in prayer, then one could, without concern, address God as Satan, or Buddha, or the Easter Bunny or refer to Him using foul words. The words of a Christian, however, are to be always "seasoned with grace," we are not to let any "corrupt communication" proceed out of our mouth. The psalmist David, the apostle Paul, and Christ himself set a pattern for prayer for us that teaches us to approach God with the utmost respect for who He is. It appears, then, that our words are most definitely relevant - especially when speaking to our Maker.

Peace.

 

[Catherineanne]

Magic words? Did I say anything about magic words?

Everything you said was about magic, aiki.

Christianity is not about getting the words right in order to ensure a hotline to God, which is magical belief, but about getting the heart right, which is what Christ tells us, over and over, to do.

Magic uses words to coerce the deity; if you get the words right he has to answer. If we say x, God has to do y. This is man in control of God, and is not what our faith is about. Any prayer which is coercive is attempted magic. God cannot be coerced.

From which you may well deduce that much of modern Christianity is built around magical thinking. Indeed it is. It shouldn't be, but it is.

a non-Christian addressing prayers to the Great Whatever is a useless endeavour.

I assume you can back up that assertion with Scripture? It sounds like poppycock to me. You seem to be suggesting that God is rather irrascible; he hears a seeker trying to find him, addressing him as, 'Great Whatever' and decides that is just not good enough, so he turns his back.

What exactly makes it not good enough, in your view? Are not all our efforts weak and feeble? Does he not make allowances for each of us, and himself supply what we lack?

Your idea that we can get it right and have some kind of hotline, while struggling seekers who fail to get it right are somehow condemned as inadequate is quite simply wrong. The gospel does not say this, nor does Christ say this. He meets each one of us where we are; he does not say, I'm sorry, you have got the words wrong.

If the words we use are truly "irrelevant" in prayer, try addressing God as Satan or refer to Him using foul words.

Neither of these options is possible if the heart is right before God.

Similarly, calling on God, or even Christ, by name with malice, anger, hatred, animosity or any other form of malevolence in your heart is actually addressing satan, heard by satan and acted on by satan.

In our faith, it is the heart which matters, not the incantation used.

 

[aiki]

Magic words? Did I say anything about magic words?

Everything you said was about magic, aiki.

Christianity is not about getting the words right in order to ensure a hotline to God, which is magical belief, but about getting the heart right, which is what Christ tells us, over and over, to do.

Magic uses words to coerce the deity; if you get the words right he has to answer. If we say x, God has to do y. This is man in control of God, and is not what our faith is about. Any prayer which is coercive is attempted magic. God cannot be coerced.

From which you may well deduce that much of modern Christianity is built around magical thinking. Indeed it is. It shouldn't be, but it is.

Again, where exactly did I suggest that one might coerce God by way of magic words? Let me repeat myself once more:

I did urge the one to whom I was responding to have some idea about who it was to whom they were speaking.

I said nothing about precisely what words a person should choose when they pray. Nothing at all.

I get the feeling you are so eager to make me appear in error that you are jumping very hastily to unwarranted conclusions about what I say. I'd appreciate it if you'd slow down and actually consider what I'm saying before making a response.

a non-Christian addressing prayers to the Great Whatever is a useless endeavour.
I assume you can back up that assertion with Scripture? It sounds like poppycock to me. You seem to be suggesting that God is rather irrascible; he hears a seeker trying to find him, addressing him as, 'Great Whatever' and decides that is just not good enough, so he turns his back.

You really didn't consider what I wrote, did you? Let me post some of it that you seem to be ignoring:

Except for an instance where a person is looking for God and asking Him to make Himself apparent, a non-Christian addressing prayers to the Great Whatever is a useless endeavour.

The first part of this quotation is referring to a seeker.

Your idea that we can get it right and have some kind of hotline, while struggling seekers who fail to get it right are somehow condemned as inadequate is quite simply wrong.

Well, if that was what I'd said, you'd be right.

The gospel does not say this, nor does Christ say this. He meets each one of us where we are; he does not say, I'm sorry, you have got the words wrong.

I can agree with you -- to a point. As your last post reveals, this can be taken too far.

Similarly, calling on God, or even Christ, by name with malice, anger, hatred, animosity or any other form of malevolence in your heart is actually addressing satan, heard by satan and acted on by satan.

Scriptural reference, please.

Peace to you.

 

[Catherineanne]

Scriptural reference, please.

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with one another, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissentions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law.

...

Do not be deceived; God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary of doing good, for in the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Galatians 5 and 6.

In other words, acts deriving from the sinful nature, even so called 'prayers', which emanate from malice, jealousy or anger, will reap destruction. They do not address God, but satan; the prince of this world, and of the sinful nature.

I am not ignoring the rest of your post, but I think to address the points would get even further into debate than we have already strayed. Anyone who wants to see what you actually said, can do so. I am trying only to include information of relevance to the thread, and to those seeking to know about our faith.

Meanwhile, my point remains very simple; prayer is not about using magic words, or feelings. It is about getting the heart right before God. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[aiki]

In other words, acts deriving from the sinful nature, even so called 'prayers', which emanate from malice, jealousy or anger, will reap destruction. They do not address God, but satan; the prince of this world, and of the sinful nature.

Ummm...This isn't precisely what the verses say - or even suggest. The first part of the quotation above I agree with entirely, but the last bit about prayers emanating from the sinful nature being by default addressed to Satan is not indicated in the verses you've posted. Also, I don't think Satan is ever referred to in Scripture as "the Prince of our Sinful Nature." Most definitely, Satan manipulates and uses our sinful nature to his ends, but he has no sovereign control over it.

Meanwhile, my point remains very simple; prayer is not about using magic words.

And with this I completely agree.

Peace to you.

 

[dewaddict84]

His Children. (Which means that some that call themselves his children really aren't)

Scary.

[subjective morality] That means you will accept as equally valid any position sincerely held by any other person. That's what a subjective morality means in practice.

(standing in for soul biscuit, as I too believe that morality is subjective) Not really. We accept that any other person can have their position and truly believe in it. It does not necessarily have any impact upon our own set of ethics. Now, if I found said person was doing well for himself, I could argue that he must be doing something right and I would admit that perhaps his ideas aren't so wacky. Likewise, if he was a crack addict or flying into buildings, I may take his ideas with a grain of salt.

Furthermore, even if he believes his own set of beliefs to be correct, if nobody else thought so, then the general consensus would be that he's wrong. Yay society.

quareo, as for the benefit of praying. I think they use it was a way to seek or hearken back to a religious experience. That experience being one of transcendence, or enlightenment, or uh, divinity? Stuff like that. You could try meditating, or looking into zen. That whole, "opening yourself up to the world". I think it's all just modifying your mental state. You may be able to use it to get your religious experience, and communion with god. If that's your thing.