Praise to the Man!

i do not mean to seem rude or intrusive, but the posts are open to everyone at all times. if you want one on one dialogue, you have a mailbox. PM them.

still waiting for an answer.

Toms777 said:

It is not clear who this was intended for, but this is apublic discussion group and all persons are welcome to jumop in anytime as long as they stay on topic and abide by the rules.

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I just realized that you were the one who started this thread. I bite my tounge and eat humble pie. My apologies! Here you should have every right to "interrupt" where you wish.

MF

solar_mirth said:

i do not mean to seem rude or intrusive, but the posts are open to everyone at all times. if you want one on one dialogue, you have a mailbox. PM them.

still waiting for an answer.

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No, you were not rude. I was referring to Tom, but later apologized because he started this thread.

Some confusion occurs in posting when you view the threads in one of three modes, and the other person views in another mode. At the top of the page there is an option of "thread mode." You can choose linear, hybrid or ?
In hybrid you can trace direct responses to your post and so on, like a family tree. When you read my post and want to answer it specifically, hit "quote" or "respond" at the bottom after the post, and at the top we can review all of the messages branched out according to who responds to who.

Toms777 said:

Note that Hebrews speaks ONLY of Christ as a high priest, not any priesthood of men, which was done away with when the veil was rent in the temple. the reason is that the priesthood was merely prophetic of Jesus' priesthood and once he came and fulfilled the prophecy, the rituals and the priesthood was no longer required since through jesus, we now have one mediator between God and man and those who have received Jesus as Lord and saviour no longer require a priest to mediate for them since their sins are forgiven and they can come before the throne of God in prayer in the name of Jesus.(Scripture referecnes upon request). this is the theme of much of the book of Hebrews.

The only other priesthood which continues afterward is the priesthood of believers - which again shows that we no longer need a priest to intercede for us with rituals, or temple work.

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FB: Read a little closer here. Christ was an apostle, and he gave his authority to his disciples who were then called apostles. It says consider the heavenly Calling as an apostle and High Priest. It does not say that he would be the only high priest. It certainly does not say he was the only apostle. Paul says of our profession. So I would say that Christ was a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Here is a important note, why would Christ be under the order of a priesthood called Melchizedek. Why wouldn't be under his name, since it is his power?

solar_mirth said:

ok, i'm back.

i did read your analogy post. but i find it irrelevant. we are talking about a hymn. in this hymn, very specific things are said. i'm a writer, lifetime reader, and a philospher. interpreting what is exactly said is what i am good at. reading this hymn, one can only come to the conclusion that it glorifies JS beyond what is acceptable for man. please, don't argue with "you can't understand" or anything like that. i have specific questions; just try to answer them. i am young, but i am also much more spiritually and doctrinally mature than most. just give me some credit. your answers will not go over my head or anything. you must show how the hymn is in accordance with scripture. it has already been shown that it isn't. so good luck.

so here's the part that i request a response for: hebrews says that christ is our eternal high priest in the order of melchizidek. how did JS take it from him?

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I hope you can be patient with my response. This time of year it is hard to sit at the computer for a legnth of time. I will get back to your question.

My analogy does have relevance, if you will bear with me I will explain why later. Right now there are three other LDS posters here, maybe they will respond, but it takes me much time to write.

By the way, if this hymn, or any hymn in our hymnal should ever equate any man to God or His Son, I would have nothing to do with the Church. Language is tricky and I noted in your profile that you are involved with law.
Tom and any others who are trying to prove this point are trying to jam a puzzle piece in a spot that doesn't fit. When you start using criteria such as exact language and perfect definitions, these are man made issues and have no physical link to spiritual concepts. But the language can direct a person's mind to ponder spiritual meanings and then the Holy Ghost takes over if the person is in tune.

fatboys said:

Here is a important note, why would Christ be under the order of a priesthood called Melchizedek. Why wouldn't be under his name, since it is his power?

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I don't know whether you know the answer or not, so I am answering it. It was actullaly named the Priesthood of Christ, but the name was chnged to one of the Priesthood's greatest Priests, to avoid using the name of the Lord too often, so as to avoid accidental disrespect. It is the Priesthood of Christ, and He is the High Priest in it. Other people can hold the position of High Priest, but Christ is the chief cornorstone of the Priesthood.

To Toms777:
Again, where does it say that there attributes belong SOLEY to Christ or to God. They simply say that they HAVE these attributes. As you started this topic, it is yours to prove this.

Nightstrike said:

Freemasonry is of satan!

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I do not believe so. I have seen nothing satanic in any official Masonic text or ritual.

Nightstrike said:

so how can a man that was in one of the highest ranks of a organization of satan be godly!...

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Well, I myself am a 'high-degree' Scottish Rite Mason (Master of the Royal Secret, 32°, and Knight Templar). It is relatively easy for Masons to obtain lists of other Masons and their affiliations/rank. I just happen to have in my possession copies of Nauvoo Lodge records. I can assure you that Joseph Smith was a Blue Lodge Master Mason who never affiliated with any other Masonic body.

Joseph Smith never was a Scottish Rite Mason so he never could have held the rank of Sovereign Grand Inspector General, Inspector General or Inspector General-Honorary (33°). The Scottish Rite, Northern Masonic Jurisdiction, did not make its way into Illinois until 1859. Joseph Smith was killed in 1844. He also was not a Royal Arch Mason (although both his brother, Hyrum, and his father were both Royal Arch Masons (The Seventh Degree in the American York Rite sequence, although, technically, York Rite Degrees are not numbered)), not a Cryptic Mason, and not a Knight Templar.

He was a member of a Blue Lodge (1°-3°) only. When the History of the Church stated that Joseph Smith rose to the Sublime Degree, it referred to The Sublime Degree of Master Mason (3°). In the Third Degree, a candidate is said to be 'raised' whereas a candidate for the 33° is said to be Coroneted. Joseph Smith was Raised not Coroneted.

Aside from that, a high-ranking Scottish Rite Mason can be as godly as he wants to be. FYI, the vast majority of Scottish Rite Masons are Christians of various stripes. In England and a few other countries, anyone who has conferred upon him the rank of Knight Rose Croix (18°) or higher must be a Christian. One must sign a declaration to that effect there.

MormonFriend said:

I am a Mormon and as such have been taught, and I well understand, that I can rely on no one but Jesus the Christ for salvation. What you have quoted is correct, but your understanding of it is non existant, for the following reason. (This analogy discribes the misunderstanding.)



So, when you quote these things in our doctrine, you do not know where they fit in the full picture. When you have your four corners in place, I promise you that you will understand.

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I understand Mormonism, that is why I renounced my faith in that organization in 1980.

Let's be honest here.

Mormonism teaches that:
"If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
(Doctrines of Salvation vol. 2 pp. 1-350)

Mormon doctrine teaches that there is no salvation outside of Mormonism (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119.) Not only that, but Mormon doctrine says Joseph Smith's consent is a requirement to get to heaven (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91), as well as works and obedience to the Mormon rules and regulations (2nd, 3rd and 4th Articles of Faith by Joseph Smith; D&C 131:1-4; 132:19-25, 30, 55; Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23; Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-671).

Jesus Christ is not the salvation of the Mormons because His salvation is a GIFT to those who believe in His name (John 1:12).

His name is not the name of the Mormon Jesus.
His name is not "the Brother of Lucifer/Satan" and His name is not "the Son of Lucifer/Satan's Father" (Gospel Principles pp. 11, 17, 18).
His name is not "your spirit sibling of the incestuous, polygamous Elohim" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547, 742; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 589-590; The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Bookcraft, 1988, p. 6-7; Family Home Evenings Manual, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1972, p. 125-126; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Macmillan Pub., 1992, p. 725, 729, 739, 740, 1670, 1671; Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115, vol. 11, p. 268; The Seer, p. 158.)
"It is finished!" Jesus cries from the cross.
What is finished?
Everything that needs to be done in order for unholy sinners to enter into relationship with the Holy God.
What is finished?
Everything that needs to be done about sin—everything that needs to be done about the sin of those who respond to Jesus’ call to follow.
"It is finished!"
What is finished in the cross is the judgment of the sin of those who come to Jesus.

At the cross God’s burning zeal for the right, coupled with God’s perfect hatred of evil, came together to save sinners.

There is a way out of the wrath to come. It is to throw ourselves on the cross, where wrath was mercifully expended by God on Himself in the person of Jesus. The voice from the throne, in the seventh bowl, that cries out, "It is done," is the same voice that cries from the cross, "It is finished!" The One who sends forth the seven angels is the One who so loves the world, that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, should not come under judgment, but have eternal life.

So what is our response today?
Repent of anything that does not square with Jesus Christ and throw ourselves on Him, who by His blood saved us from His just wrath.

fatboys said:

FB: This is the most silly point. Joseph Smith had been a mason and spent three days at meetings when he joined. Three days. Now if you saw your brother take a bullit to the head and other friends shot up, let see what you would yell as you jump out a two story window with mobs below with no hope of escape. I am a bit angry that you would try and insinuate that there was some sort of secret cry to masons. Some of the mobbers had been members of the church and had been Joseph Smiths close friends. Do you think it would matter if there were some masons in the mob? Joseph Smith knew before he was arrested as to what would happen to his life when he was to be arrested. It is totally offensive that you place some fault on Joseph Smith for his own murder. He had done nothing to warrent being murdered. Nothing. Yet you make these little jabs that have been made by many anti mormons. I heard this same comments 30 years ago when I was on my mission. I Say a BIG "SO WHAT".

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Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum fled to Iowa to avoid arrest, but they were accused of being cowards and urged to return to save Nauvoo from the possibility of destruction. They finally went to Carthage, Illinois, where they were arrested for destroying the printing press. The Smiths were allowed to post bail for this offense but were then held on a charge of treason against the State of Illinois. While they were being held at Carthage a mob attacked the jail and both Joseph and Hyrum were shot dead by their assailants.
Although Joseph Smith found himself in trouble with the Masons, he gave the Masonic signal of distress just before he was murdered. In his book concerning Masonry, William Morgan gives this information concerning what a Mason is supposed to do "in case of distress": "The sign is given by raising both hands and arms to the elbows, perpendicularly, one on each side of the head, the elbows forming a square. The words accompanying this sign, in case of distress, are, 'O LORD, MY GOD! is there no help for the widow's son?' " (Freemasonry Exposed, p. 76)

John D. Lee claimed that Joseph Smith used the exact words that a Mason is supposed to use in case of distress: "Joseph left the door, sprang through the window, and cried out, 'OH, LORD, MY GOD, IS THERE NO HELP FOR THE WIDOW'S SON!'" (Confessions of John D. Lee, reprint of 1880 ed., p. 153)

Other accounts seem to show that Joseph Smith used the first four words of the distress cry. According to the History of the Church, Joseph Smith "fell outward into the hands of his murderers, exclaiming. 'O LORD, MY GOD!' " (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 618) Less than a month after Joseph and Hyrum Smith were murdered, the following appeared in the Mormon publication, Times and Seasons:
"...with uplifted hands they gave such SIGNS OF DISTRESS as would have commanded the interposition and benevolence of Savages or Pagans. They were both MASONS in good standing. Ye brethren of 'the mystic tie' what think ye! Where is our good MASTER Joseph and Hyrum? Is there a pagan, heathen, or savage nation on the globe that would not be moved on this great occasion, as the trees of the forest are moved by a mighty wind? Joseph's last exclamation was 'O LORD MY GOD!' " (Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, p. 585)

The Mormon writer E. Cecil McGavin admitted that Joseph Smith gave the Masonic signal of distress: "When the enemy surrounded the jail, rushed up the stairway, and killed Hyrum Smith, Joseph stood at the open window, his martyr-cry being these words, 'O Lord My God!' This was NOT the beginning of a prayer, because Joseph Smith did not pray in that manner. This brave, young man who knew that death was near, started to repeat THE DISTRESS SIGNAL OF THE MASONS, expecting thereby to gain the protection its members are pledged to give a brother in distress. "In 1878, Zina D. Huntington Young said of this theme, 'I am the daughter of a Master Mason; I am the widow of the Master Mason who, when leaping from the window of Carthage jail, pierced with bullets, MADE THE MASONIC SIGN OF DISTRESS, but those signs were not heeded except by the God of Heaven.' " (Mormonism and Masonry, by E. Cecil McGavin, page 17)
On page 16 of the same book, Mr. McGavin quotes the following from the Life of Heber C. Kimball, p. 26: " 'Joseph, leaping the fatal window, GAVE THE MASONIC SIGNAL OF DISTRESS.' "

Most Mormons believe that Joseph Smith died without putting up a struggle, but the actual truth is that he died in a gun fight.

Joseph Smith's prophecy that he would prevail against his enemies is found in the Nauvoo Neighbor for June 19, 1844:
Just eight days after Joseph Smith made this prophecy he was murdered in the Carthage jail, and before two years had elapsed the Mormons were driven from Illinois.

fatboys said:

FB: This is the most silly point. Joseph Smith had been a mason and spent three days at meetings when he joined.

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Hi there!



Do you believe that what the masons teach is Christianity? Please tell me why any professing Christian would participate in Masonic practices?


~serapha~

MormonFriend said:

Tom, you have way too much time on your hands, and a wild imagination.

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Hi there!



I have a pet peeve on Christian Forums.... it is people who refuse to address issues, yet they address people instead.


~serapha~

Talyn said:

I love that song

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Hi there!




"It is better to light just one little candle, than to stumble in the dark.
Better far then, to light just one little candle. All you need is a tiny spark.
And if we all said a prayer that the world would be free.
What a wonderful dawn of the new day we'll see.
And if everyone lit just one little candle, what a bright world this would be."

Toms777 said:

Here is a Hymn from the Mormon Church Hymnal, written about Joseph Smith. Does anyone have any thoughts or comment about what this hymn says about Joseph Smith?

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Stain Illinois* while the earth lauds his fame.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.

Chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

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Hi there!



Please cite the song appropriately.

http://mormonlit.lib.byu.edu/lit_author.php?a_id=2594

Author:

William W. Phelps
William W. Phelps (1792-1872) was born at Hanover, New Jersey. Well educated, Phelps was an aspirant for the office of lieutenant governor of New York at the time he first learned of Mormonism through reading the Book of Mormon and talking with Sidney Rigdon. He visited Kirtland in 1831, was baptized, and became active in editorial work, establishing the Evening and Morning Star. One of the Prophet's scribes, he assisted in preparing the first hymnal. Excommunicated in 1839, he returned to fellowship in 1841 and fulfilled a mission to the eastern states. He was implicated in the difficulty surrounding the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and was summoned to be tried for treason with Joseph Smith at Carthage. He accompanied the pioneers to Utah, where he became one of the first regents of the University of Deseret and a representative in the Utah legislature.


He also wrote the words to:

If You Could Hie to Kolob


Also,
http://www.spiremusic.org/JSTPstories.htm#praise

Serapha said:

Hi there!



Do you believe that what the masons teach is Christianity? Please tell me why any professing Christian would participate in Masonic practices?...

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What Masonry teaches is the core of all world religions and fraternal organizations. This core is summed up by Micah 6:8, Isaiah 58:6-7, and James 1:26-27. It is neither Christianity nor Judaism nor Islam nor Hindu. Millions of professing Christians participate because it is fun, educational, aids in the building up and improvement of memory, is good fellowship for people of all theistic faiths, and accomplishes a lot of good in the world in spite of denominational and religious differences among its adherents.

Serapha said:

...No man can see God and live....

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alrighty i love how no one replied to muse's comments.

Muse, you obviously dont know what youre talking about
^ Sarcasm directed at stupidity lol

Lets face it: the Mormon hymn gives praise to man (wow, the title sure didnt give that one away). Praise is reserved to God. The verses given by the oposing side is irrelevant because in light of the context, those refer to praise as in "Good job" not "Your name is greater than all of ours, you stand at heaven and let us in!"

Also, names can be great in sight of the LORD alone, they serve no benefit to the man being praised (this case Joey Smith) if the humans praise him. Therefore, what benefit is given to the humans that praise the man? None, and Paul is very clear in 1 Corinthians that all things that dont bring glory to God or do not edify the church are not to be in the church (or our lives for that matter).

plain and simple - its obvious to any Bible believing person what truth is