Praise to the Man!

Toms777 · Jan 3, 2004

Existential1 said:
When we, who all in our different ways seek to know god, argue amongst ourselves, and attack each other over the details of our witness and faith: are we not, and i ask this as a genuine question, not as any answer i have been made privy; are we not turning away from what might be meant by the many rooms in god's house.
If god is, as we would all claim, the ground and source of all that we are; and of such splendour and ineffability, that all that we are burns and dies as we approach it: then just why do we think that the details of our differences, in our approaches to god, must necessarily conflict just because they are different.
Are we not just all, from our differing starting points, passing our hands over the amazing body of an elephant, whose wholeness we cannot see in our blindness, and whose splendour we cannot comprehend in our crudity.

Thanks to all those whose witnesses took me to this understanding; even if it might seem to them that i here disagree with them.
Jesus is the man.
Take care, and god bless.

We do not all seek the same God.

The God of the Mormons is a space alien born on another planmet as a man, who grew up to become God and now resides on a planet in Kolob solar system. Their God did not create anyone or any matter, but simply re-arranged the matter. Their God is not all knowing but had to learn to get to where he is and is still learning. Their god is only one of many and each of them hope to become a god some day.

This is quite different from the Christian God who is from everlasting, the one true God who has always been and who is immutable, amonipresent, omnipotent and omniscient and Holy, and who exists in three persons, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Bible warns us throughout against false gods and we are to warn others against false gods (Gal 1 and Ez 33 for example).

happyinhisgrace · Jan 3, 2004

John 1: 12-13

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become Children of God, to those who believe in His name. To those who were born not of blood or of the will of the flesh or the will of man but of God.

Romans 8: 14-15

For as many as are led by the spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not recieve the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you recieved the spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

We become the children of God by adoption when we are indwelled with the holy spirit of God.

happyinhisgrace · Jan 3, 2004

The God of the Mormons is a space alien born on another planmet as a man, who grew up to become God and now resides on a planet in Kolob solar system.

Tom, while I agree with most all of what you said, what you stated in the above is incorrect. The LDS do not believe God lives on a planet called Kolob but rather on a planet near a star called Kolob. Yes, I know...minor details but details just the same.God Bless,
Grace

Existential1 · Jan 3, 2004

Toms777 said:
We do not all seek the same God.

The God of the Mormons is a space alien born on another planmet as a man, who grew up to become God and now resides on a planet in Kolob solar system. Their God did not create anyone or any matter, but simply re-arranged the matter. Their God is not all knowing but had to learn to get to where he is and is still learning. Their god is only one of many and each of them hope to become a god some day.

This is quite different from the Christian God who is from everlasting, the one true God who has always been and who is immutable, amonipresent, omnipotent and omniscient and Holy, and who exists in three persons, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Bible warns us throughout against false gods and we are to warn others against false gods (Gal 1 and Ez 33 for example).

I agree that we must be careful of false gods. But, i think that it remains difficult to discern falsity; or, at it can be so. Is Tony Blair manifesting god; does he follow Jesus: in what he does politically? Does the human project move towards god, or away from god; through what he does as a political leader?
This matters to me: is he doing christ work; or is he making the world of my children, a fundamentally less safe place?

I do not have the faith of perspective of a Mormon Christian: I acknowledge the magnificence of their faith and witness, and that genuinely; I do not confront or oppose them, they do not harm or intefere with me.
There is nothing in the value and the quality of my faith or witness, against which what they have secured, needs be questioned.
I acknowledge what you say, in saying that we do not all share the same god; and what you say is undeniable: yet, these different gods can still be a reflection of an actual, if indeterminate god presence.

happyinhisgrace · Jan 3, 2004

[I agree that we must be careful of false gods. But, i think that it remains difficult to discern falsity; or, at it can be so.

Actually it isn't difficult at all if you are firm in the Word of God. That is why it is so important to study the Bible. It you know what it says, you can't be fooled with the false Gods of the world.

Grace

arizona_sunshine · Jan 3, 2004

Just curious:

Outside of these oh so stimulating conversations and a hymn we happen to sing once in a blue moon...

How often do you think we mormons talk about Kolob and God living near it?

Not. Very. Often.

Existential1 · Jan 3, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
[I agree that we must be careful of false gods. But, i think that it remains difficult to discern falsity; or, at it can be so.

Actually it isn't difficult at all if you are firm in the Word of God. That is why it is so important to study the Bible. It you know what it says, you can't be fooled with the false Gods of the world.

Grace

I am dyslexic. My relation to any written word is quirky. The Bible took me to who and where I am; but, once here, i have to embrace god myself: i wonder just how mapped and signposted god's approach really is.

God bless.

happyinhisgrace · Jan 3, 2004

Existential1 said:
I am dyslexic. My relation to any written word is quirky. The Bible took me to who and where I am; but, once here, i have to embrace god myself: i wonder just how mapped and signposted god's approach really is.

God bless.

I am dyslexic. My relation to any written word is quirky. The Bible took me to who and where I am; but, once here, i have to embrace god myself: i wonder just how mapped and signposted god's approach really is.

Existential, I can see how it would be a labor of love to read the Bible if you are dyslexic but most of the translations of the Bibles come in audio cd and tapes now days and also you could study with someone else and they could do the reading and then you could discuss what was read.

Grace

Toms777 · Jan 3, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
The God of the Mormons is a space alien born on another planmet as a man, who grew up to become God and now resides on a planet in Kolob solar system.

Tom, while I agree with most all of what you said, what you stated in the above is incorrect. The LDS do not believe God lives on a planet called Kolob but rather on a planet near a star called Kolob. Yes, I know...minor details but details just the same.God Bless,
Grace

What I said was "a planet in the Kolob solar system". That means a planet near a star called Kolob, just as we are in the a solar system near a star.

Toms777 · Jan 3, 2004

arizona_sunshine said:
Just curious:

Outside of these oh so stimulating conversations and a hymn we happen to sing once in a blue moon...

How often do you think we mormons talk about Kolob and God living near it?

Not. Very. Often.

The frequncy is not the issue. the fact that it is part of the Mormon teachings is important since it makes it clear that the Mormon God is not the Christian God.

Toms777 · Jan 3, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
John 1: 12-13

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become Children of God, to those who believe in His name. To those who were born not of blood or of the will of the flesh or the will of man but of God.

Romans 8: 14-15

For as many as are led by the spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not recieve the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you recieved the spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."

We become the children of God by adoption when we are indwelled with the holy spirit of God.

Quite right and note that it says by "adoption", and adopted children do not take on the nature of the adotping father, thus while we who are receieve Jesus as Saviour are adopted children of God, and joint heirs as adopted children are, we do not take on the nature of God and thus do not become God or gods.

Toms777 · Jan 3, 2004

Existential1 said:
I am dyslexic. My relation to any written word is quirky. The Bible took me to who and where I am; but, once here, i have to embrace god myself: i wonder just how mapped and signposted god's approach really is.

God bless.

The Bible was given by God to reveal Himself to us, not to hide Himself from us.

happyinhisgrace · Jan 3, 2004

Toms777 said:
What I said was "a planet in the Kolob solar system". That means a planet near a star called Kolob, just as we are in the a solar system near a star.

Right you are, I misread what you wrote.

Grace

DCP 32Â° K.T · Jan 4, 2004

Toms777 said:
Then you do not understand what "Christos" means.

The only authortitative interpretation is God's, and we find that by going to the Bible.

I read the Bible of the Apostles (and it isn't written in English). Of course I know what Christos means. It means 'anointed'. I also know that the Bible uses the term to address several individuals in the Bible of the Apostles. As I said, you really need to pick up the Bible of the Apostles, even if you ignore the deuterocanonicals, and/or any edition of the Hebrew Bible. You see for yourself that the words christos and meshiach is applied to more than one person.

Here are a couple samples (in Unicode, so hope you see it all) from the Bible of the Apostles and from the Hebrew Bible to get you started:

και ειπεν Δαυιδ προς τους ανδρας αυτου μηδαμως μοι παρα κυριου ει ποιησω το ρημα τουτο τω κυριω μου τω χριστω κυριου επενεγκαι χειρα μου επ αυτον οτι χριστος κυριου εστιν ουτος

(Βασιλειων Α' 24.7, Version of the Seventy [= 1 Samuel 24:6 in English versions; p. 389, Brenton LXX])

ויאמר לאנשיו הלילה לי מיהוה אם־אעשה את־הדבר הזה לאדני למשיח יהוה לשלח ידי בו כי־משיח יהוה הוא׃

(1 Samuel 24:7 [= 1 Samuel 24:6 in English versions])

Note carefully the Hebrew meshiach YHWH and the the Greek christos kuriou used to speak of Saul (a human creation!), whom David was reticent to kill because he was the Lord's anointed. As anyone can see from just this one example, and there are a number of others, other people can indeed be referred to as messiah or as christos (both meaning 'anointed' in English) without implying that they are the Holy Son Jesus Christ or another Christ in the same sense attached to God the Son.

Toms777 · Jan 4, 2004

DCP said:
I read the Bible of the Apostles (and it isn't written in English). Of course I know what Christos means. It means 'anointed'. I also know that the Bible uses the term to address several individuals in the Bible of the Apostles. As I said, you really need to pick up the Bible of the Apostles, even if you ignore the deuterocanonicals, and/or any edition of the Hebrew Bible. You see for yourself that the words christos and meshiach is applied to more than one person.

Here are a couple samples (in Unicode, so hope you see it all) from the Bible of the Apostles and from the Hebrew Bible to get you started:

Note carefully the Hebrew meshiach YHWH and the the Greek christos kuriou used to speak of Saul (a human creation!), whom David was reticent to kill because he was the Lord's anointed. As anyone can see from just this one example, and there are a number of others, other people can indeed be referred to as messiah or as christos (both meaning 'anointed' in English) without implying that they are the Holy Son Jesus Christ or another Christ in the same sense attached to God the Son.

As I said previously, there are those anointed for other purposes in the Bible, but not the Messiah, so if you agree, then what, pray tell, is your point?

DCP 32Â° K.T · Jan 4, 2004

Toms777 said:
As I said previously, there are those anointed for other purposes in the Bible, but not the Messiah, so if you agree, then what, pray tell, is your point?

The point is this: If other persons in the Bible are said to be anointed (even though the very same Greek and Hebrew words are used for both an anointed man and for the Messiah, Christ), there still is only one Christ, but if a Mormon hymn says that Joseph Smith is anointed, you and JVAC make it out to say that Joseph Smith is another Christ! Do you not see that approach as a bit...well...inconsistent or as a double-standard?

happyinhisgrace · Jan 4, 2004

DCP said:
The point is this: If other persons in the Bible are said to be anointed (even though the very same Greek and Hebrew words are used for both an anointed man and for the Messiah, Christ), there still is only one Christ, but if a Mormon hymn says that Joseph Smith is anointed, you and JVAC make it out to say that Joseph Smith is another Christ! Do you not see that approach as a bit...well...inconsistent or as a double-standard?

The thing I find to disturbing with the hymn "Praise to the Man" is that it is clearing praising Joseph when it should be praising God but the God in Mormonism is no more than a glorified man that moved up the progression ladder to "godhood" so from the point of the LDS beliefs, I can see why they would have no problem praising a "man".

God Bless,
Grace

DCP 32Â° K.T · Jan 4, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
The thing I find to disturbing with the hymn "Praise to the Man" is that it is clearing praising Joseph when it should be praising God...

Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; A stranger, and not thine own lips. (Proverbs 27:2, ASV)

10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.

12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.

14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.

15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.

16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.

17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.

18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.

19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.

20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.

22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.

23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.

24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.

25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.

26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.

27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

(Proverbs 31:10-31, ASV)

This is another point of inconsistency, in my opinion. For example, the Bible itself talks about praising humans, as the above woman. It is alright when the Bible does it once in a blue moon but not alright when a Mormon hymn does it once in a blue moon? Does this opinion not also strike you as somewhat inconsistent?

emerald Dragon · Jan 4, 2004

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints only worships only ONE God-Heavenly Father.

I think I finally found an answer.
In the church, worthy male members are given the authority of the Priesthood. The Power of the Priesthood is God's, Christ's and the Holy Ghost's alone making them gods. Men have the AUTHORITY of the priesthood.
In the eternites, men will recieve first the full authority of the priesthood, then the powers of the priesthood, making them like God, in ability, but not God in authority or fullness of power.

Men may become gods, but not God. God is the title of the Eternal Father, while god is the name for people with all the powers and authority of the priesthood.

In Exodus, where it says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me", it doesn't say that there are not other gods. It says that we are to worship only HEavenly Father. by saying that man can become gods, does not say that they will be equal to, or above God. They will be granted many of His powers, and all of His authority.

I may be wrong in some respects here, but this I know-in the eternites, worthy men will be givent the full AUTHORITY of the priesthood. They may not have the power, as God will probably be the only one to hold it, but men can have the authority to use the priesthood to do wonders.

Toms777 · Jan 4, 2004

DCP said:
The point is this: If other persons in the Bible are said to be anointed (even though the very same Greek and Hebrew words are used for both an anointed man and for the Messiah, Christ), there still is only one Christ, but if a Mormon hymn says that Joseph Smith is anointed, you and JVAC make it out to say that Joseph Smith is another Christ! Do you not see that approach as a bit...well...inconsistent or as a double-standard?

This represents what I find to be the primary problems with most false theologies. Taking things out of context. And creating strawmen. Maybe it has been too long since I put up the list of issues with this hymn. Here it is again:

Note that many of these attributes given to Joseph apply only to Jesus, for example:

1) The song refers to his great name. This is similar to what scripture says about Jesus name being above all names. throughout scripture, the term "great name" is used primarily to apply to God:

Example:

Josh 7:8-9
8 O Lord, what shall I say when Israel turns its back before its enemies? 9 For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land will hear it, and surround us, and cut off our name from the earth. Then what will You do for Your great name?"
NKJV

2) "Kings shall extol him and nations rever him" refers to Smith in the song, but the Bible uses the term extol solely to apply to God, for example:

Ps 68:4
4 Sing to God, sing praises to His name;
Extol Him who rides on the clouds,
By His name YAH,
And rejoice before Him.
NKJV

3) "Great is his glory" refers to Smith in the song, but the Bible says:

Luke 21:27-28
27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
NKJV

4) "..and endless his priesthood" refers to Smith's priesthood in the song:

Heb 7:21
"The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
'You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek' "),
NKJV

This refers to Jesus in the Bible.

5) "Ever and ever the keys he will hold. " refers to Smith in the song.

In the Bible, it is Jesus who holds the keys:

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

6) "Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom," in this song speaks of Smith's kingdom. In the Bible, the kingdom belongs to God.

2 Tim 4:1-2
4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
NKJV

7) "Earth must atone for the blood of that man"

Jesus Christ alone died for the sins of man. This is a denial of the true gospel in scripture.

Heb 2:17-18
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
NKJV

8) "Mingling with Gods".

This of course is contrary to the Bible:

Isa 44:8
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

The song therefore attempts to elevate Joseph Smith to equivalency with God.

Praise to the Man!

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