Practicing science

[Cabal]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

Like I say, interpreting the Scriptures literally, forces even those hostile to Them to agree to acknowledge what It said.

Yes, as evidenced by those dozens of times people have said they disagree with your interpretation and don't even acknowledge it.

How is that supposed to work again? It's not very effective.

They may not agree with It themselves, but they can't deny It said that.

Yeah, denial is amazing.

Like translating "very good" literally to "perfect". Hooray for literalism!

Anyone who interprets Jesus is not the Creator, is doing it in spite of the Bible, not in respect to It.

And that's not what I claimed. Re-read my post.

I said that only creationists claim that Jesus was a CREATIONIST, not Creator.

Different.

In addition, according to [your?] logic, all it would take to falsify your statement is one non-creationist to believe Jesus is the Creator.

Ouch. That physically hurt to read.

As I said, I said that only creationists claim Jesus was a creationist, not Creator.

So finding one non-creationist that is a creationist is a bit of a contradiction in terms.

 

[Cabal]

I sometimes get the impression that a creationist by definition is one who rejects evolution. Am I right?

I'm referring specifically to YEC and ID here.

Technically as a TE I'm a creationist, in that I believe God created.

But frankly, that word is too tarnished for the time being.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

I said that only creationists claim that Jesus was a CREATIONIST, not Creator.

Different.
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As I said, I said that only creationists claim Jesus was a creationist, not Creator.

So finding one non-creationist that is a creationist is a bit of a contradiction in terms.

Actually, though i am nitpicking here.

I as a non-creationist and non-christian have no problem believing that the fallible human jesus (if he existed at all) would have been a creationist. Considering the time he lived in.

That however is based on the assumption that jesus was a mear human and did not have divine knowledge of the universe so did not know how it actually happend. Which would be something christians believe. (although I think its also part of the muslim faith. but nevermind that)

As a twist, I would not claim jesus was the creator. While I might claim he was a creationist.

 

[Cabal]

Actually, though i am nitpicking here.

I as a non-creationist and non-christian have no problem believing that the fallible human jesus (if he existed at all) would have been a creationist. Considering the time he lived in.

That however is based on the assumption that jesus was a mear human and did not have divine knowledge of the universe so did not know how it actually happend. Which would be something christians believe. (although I think its also part of the muslim faith. but nevermind that)

There is that possibility, which the Scriptures don't necessarily address.

That said, I object to the claim that Jesus is a creationist (and I specifically mean a modern YEC-type creationist here, not merely someone who considers God to be Creator), which is usually justified by pointing to his words that make oblique references to bits of Genesis. There is nothing to indicate that he is taking the passages literally.

As a twist, I would not claim jesus was the creator. While I might claim he was a creationist.

Confusing stuff alright....

 

[Split Rock]

As long as He doesn't talk about Hell?

I don't recall the Gospels portraying Jesus speaking a lot about Hell. Do you have some passages in mind?

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't recall the Gospels portraying Jesus speaking a lot about Hell. Do you have some passages in mind?

Jesus spoke more on Hell than any OT writer, and some think He spoke more on Hell than any other subject -- including Heaven -- (I'm not sure about that one though).

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

There is that possibility, which the Scriptures don't necessarily address.

That said, I object to the claim that Jesus is a creationist (and I specifically mean a modern YEC-type creationist here, not merely someone who considers God to be Creator), which is usually justified by pointing to his words that make oblique references to bits of Genesis. There is nothing to indicate that he is taking the passages literally.

Ah I was not aware people where actively debating weither jesus was a YEC or OEC.

I only meant to say that I find the possiblity that he was a YEC plausible if he was a regular human with some good ideas about how to treat eachother.

Confusing stuff alright....

Its kind of like saying I think AV is a creationist but not the creator.
If that clears it up^^

 

[Cabal]

Ah I was not aware people where actively debating weither jesus was a YEC or OEC.

I'm not attempting to claim he was an OEC or a TE or whatever either - I merely think there isn't conclusive evidence on his opinion.

I only meant to say that I find the possiblity that he was a YEC plausible if he was a regular human with some good ideas about how to treat eachother.

In that sense, sure - although Christians will debate over the level of knowledge Christ had about creation (seeing as there are places when Jesus speaks of not knowing things that God does) and still regard Jesus as an embodiment of the Creator.

Its kind of like saying I think AV is a creationist but not the creator.
If that clears it up^^

I understood what you meant, I was just remarking on the general confusion that arises when using similar terms and concepts

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

I'm not attempting to claim he was an OEC or a TE or whatever either - I merely think there isn't conclusive evidence on his opinion.

Just curious. What is a TE?

In that sense, sure - although Christians will debate over the level of knowledge Christ had about creation (seeing as there are places when Jesus speaks of not knowing things that God does) and still regard Jesus as an embodiment of the Creator.

I did not know that.

I understood what you meant, I was just remarking on the general confusion that arises when using similar terms and concepts

I blame the internet for this misscommunication

 

[Cabal]

Just curious. What is a TE?

Theistic Evolutionist (as I said earlier, technically a creationist as it's a belief system which still acknowledges God as Creator, just by a different means, but "creationist" carries a lot of undesirable baggage).

I blame the internet for this misscommunication

Nah, I blame the topic, where you have creation, Creation, Creator, creationists.....

As much as AV likes to talk about Pluto being de-planetified, sometimes clarifying terminology is a GOOD THING *twitch*

 

[Michael]

My story (abridged version)

I was a christian up until the age of 17. I was an honors student in an all-honors school (not tooting horns), and I was a believer in Jesus.

Our paths sound similar, although my stint with atheism lasted from about 15 to 24. FYI, lots of "Christians" are really into science. I would argue that Jesus himself was a scientist too. I think it's unfortunate that your church wasn't open to science. That's quite unfortunate.

FYI I became a "Universalist" Christian at some point because I realized it wasn't Jesus I objected to, it was the "religious beliefs" of some Christians I disagreed with. Unfortunately all groups can be harsh on their heretics. In my experience however when it comes to "big picture" sort of questions like where did we come from, how did we get here, etc, "science" is often just as much an "act of faith" as faith in Jesus and God.

Keep in my that nobody owns Jesus and Christians have very different scientific beliefs, good and bad. You can be a "Christian" anytime you want, even if you don't believe some "Christians" on some topics. I guess that's why there are so many different denominations of Christians, even universalists like me.

 

[keith99]

Completely unrelated to the thread, but Gankutsuou is one of my favourite anime.

On a more on topic note, Christianity as a whole is not adverse to science, there have been many famous Christian scientists both historically and today. But it's easy to see how an anti-science attitude can turn intelligent, throughtful people away from the church.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer is one of the most famous Christians of the last century. His older brother Carl F. Bonhoeffer was a famous and accomplished physical chemist. The Max Planc Institutes are a series of schools/research facilities of great repute in Germany. One of them is named after Carl F. Bonhoeffer. One other is named after a large donor. All the rest that are named after individuals aer named after figures of science that any High school student should recognise.

Science and Christianity can grow up in the same house. At least the healthy forms of science and Christianity.