Practicing science

[Gankutsuou]

I am a new guy to this neck of the proverbial woods and I wanted to ask the creationists here a few questions regarding their personal interactions with science. Basically if, where, and/or how they did it.

The reason I ask is because it is this very practice that I separated from Christianity. My story probably isn't unique, either. I am sure some of the atheists here share similar accounts.

My story (abridged version)

I was a christian up until the age of 17. I was an honors student in an all-honors school (not tooting horns), and I was a believer in Jesus. I did what every real Christian does. I tried to live an honest, Christlike lifestyle whilst going through the rigors of high school and the rough conditions of city life. My church was the ordinary suburban protestant church (they had a bus that picked us up) and I had a lot of good memories there up until my departure.

Throughout middle and high (technical) school I learned a lot in science and mathematics because that was what I was interested in as I had a passion for computers and electronics. I had several chemistry classes where I learned about things I could not see with the untrained eye, yet I could practice it right there. It was simply amazing. It got even more amazing in University, but that is another story.

Anyhow, the trend continued. Through experimentation both at home and in classes I was able to know what my surroundings actually composed of and even how they work. The processor in your computer is amazingly complex with several million transistors which consist of even more electric gates which translate binary 0's and 1's into something meaningful like this forum. Science allowed this to happen, and I was intrigued so much I continued on the path of a scientist.

All was fine and well until it came time for me to give a speech in church. As naive as I was, I decided to let everyone know what excited me so much. Science. Apparently they weren't as excited as I was and simply claimed I was being taken aback by the devil. They even went so far as to discredit everything I ever did not only in science class, but in my own independent study. With one swift blow, they could nullify my life's work into studying my surroundings.

At the time I was confused, why would the church condemn me for learning? I asked myself this and many more questions until I came upon the real answer. Thinking too far outside the realm of god is simply dangerous for the church. I never questioned my faith until they condemned me and asked for me to re-convert to Christianity (weird, because up to this point I never considered that I was not).

So, that is my story. The reason why I am not a Christian. The same reason I will not go back as well, because I realize that Christianity is simply out of touch with the progression of human civilization.

I can tell you how fast a ball hits the ground when fired from a 54 degree cannon at a velocity of 45 m/s from a height of 4 meters. The church says I can't do physics else I am not a christian.

Where, if, and/or how did you do some science?

 

[Cabal]

All was fine and well until it came time for me to give a speech in church. As naive as I was, I decided to let everyone know what excited me so much. Science. Apparently they weren't as excited as I was and simply claimed I was being taken aback by the devil. They even went so far as to discredit everything I ever did not only in science class, but in my own independent study. With one swift blow, they could nullify my life's work into studying my surroundings.

At the time I was confused, why would the church condemn me for learning? I asked myself this and many more questions until I came upon the real answer. Thinking too far outside the realm of god is simply dangerous for the church. I never questioned my faith until they condemned me and asked for me to re-convert to Christianity (weird, because up to this point I never considered that I was not).

So, that is my story. The reason why I am not a Christian. The same reason I will not go back as well, because I realize that Christianity is simply out of touch with the progression of human civilization.

I can tell you how fast a ball hits the ground when fired from a 54 degree cannon at a velocity of 45 m/s from a height of 4 meters. The church says I can't do physics else I am not a christian.

Welcome to Christianity, where many of its adherents are ignorant reactionaries. And I say this as someone who's been down the same road you have in some respects (haven't quite been so jaded as to leave the Church altogether, but then again I've always had plenty of time for God - his fan club, not so much).

Where, if, and/or how did you do some science?

Always loved it. Took every science and maths class I could during high school, then did a science degree in Scotland, now doing a PhD in London in cavity QED. Hooray for science!

 

[Psudopod]

Completely unrelated to the thread, but Gankutsuou is one of my favourite anime.

On a more on topic note, Christianity as a whole is not adverse to science, there have been many famous Christian scientists both historically and today. But it's easy to see how an anti-science attitude can turn intelligent, throughtful people away from the church.

 

[lucaspa]

All was fine and well until it came time for me to give a speech in church. As naive as I was, I decided to let everyone know what excited me so much. Science. Apparently they weren't as excited as I was and simply claimed I was being taken aback by the devil. They even went so far as to discredit everything I ever did not only in science class, but in my own independent study. With one swift blow, they could nullify my life's work into studying my surroundings.

At the time I was confused, why would the church condemn me for learning? I asked myself this and many more questions until I came upon the real answer. Thinking too far outside the realm of god is simply dangerous for the church. I never questioned my faith until they condemned me and asked for me to re-convert to Christianity (weird, because up to this point I never considered that I was not).

So, that is my story. The reason why I am not a Christian. The same reason I will not go back as well, because I realize that Christianity is simply out of touch with the progression of human civilization.

What denomination did you belong to? I submit that it is not representative of Christianity. Did you know that there is a Society of Ordained Scientists? It has over 3,000 members. Welcome | Society of Ordained Scientists

The church says I can't do physics else I am not a christian.

I doubt that. It appears that a particular congregation (assuming you are telling the truth) said that, but not "the church".

Here are some denominational statements concerning science and Christianity:
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4650_statements_from_religious_orga_3_13_2001.asp

 

[Wiccan_Child]

What denomination did you belong to? I submit that it is not representative of Christianity. Did you know that there is a Society of Ordained Scientists? It has over 3,000 members. Welcome | Society of Ordained Scientists



I doubt that. It appears that a particular congregation (assuming you are telling the truth) said that, but not "the church".

Here are some denominational statements concerning science and Christianity:
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4650_statements_from_religious_orga_3_13_2001.asp

Well, then you get into the lovely topic of what constitutes a True Christian™ and the True Church™. Every group that calls itself a Christian denomination would say they're True Christians™, and may or may not be inclusive of other self-professed denominations. That said, I've never heard of a denomination that Gankutsuou described - there are some which implicitly reject science, but never have I heard of one which explicitly rejects science.

Gankutsuou, what was your church's name?

 

[Gankutsuou]

Well, they didn't outright banish me or anything. They simply told me I was being led astray and that I should come back to the Lord. The church was a Church of God in Christ. Might not help much, I didn't even know about denominations other than catholic or protestant until I was outside the church believe it or not. I cannot posts links as my post count is not 50, but I at least have the google imagery of the place. Google lists it only as "Church", and I cannot read the sign on the streetview, too blurry.

Did you know that there is a Society of Ordained Scientists? It has over 3,000 members.

Ah, interesting post Lucaspa. I didn't know such a church existed. Surely if I were a part of that denomination I would likely still be a Christian.

Completely unrelated to the thread, but Gankutsuou is one of my favourite anime.

I really loved the book, and when I found a science fiction version I was hooked. The count is the best personification I have found that fits what I felt Edward should be like.

Thanks for the answers thus far, I look forward to more.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

You have just described mainstream American evangelical christian arrog/ignorance. Christianity missed the boat a long time ago when it comes to science, rather than try and drive a wedge between faith and science, they should have embraced it. Unfortunately, all this does is expose christianity and its paltriness. The wizard behind the curtain.

This is why the church is baffled that something along the lines of 70-80% of high schoolers reject their faith when they get to university. It doesn't take much to realize and understand the true myopic nature of christianity/religion.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Like everyone else in America, I was brainwashed by fundamentalist atheist Darwinist pseudoscientists from the time I could crawl.

Then when I was 17 I went to college and read Aristotle's Physics.

Aristotle was my first exposure to actual science.

Aristotle taught me that science proves fundamentalist atheist Darwinist pseudoscientists believe what they do on account of ignorance and a lack of education.

 

[lucaspa]

Well, then you get into the lovely topic of what constitutes a True Christian™ and the True Church™. Every group that calls itself a Christian denomination would say they're True Christians™, and may or may not be inclusive of other self-professed denominations.

Actually, none of the major denominations make the claim. The idea of "True Christian" for them was discarded in the wake of the Reformation Wars. Turning Germany into one huge cemetary to decide who was a "True Christian" soured them on the idea.

The claim of "True Christian" always comes from Fundamentalists (who aren't Christian).

That said, I've never heard of a denomination that Gankutsuou described - there are some which implicitly reject science, but never have I heard of one which explicitly rejects science.

Gankutsuou, what was your church's name?

And that is why I asked the same question. To me, this is looking like the atheist equivalent of the creationist story "I used to be an evolutionist but ..." or even the atheist myth "all Christian denominations claim to be 'True Christian'.

 

[lucaspa]

Like everyone else in America, I was brainwashed by fundamentalist atheist Darwinist pseudoscientists from the time I could crawl.

Then when I was 17 I went to college and read Aristotle's Physics.

Aristotle taught me that science proves fundamentalist atheist Darwinist pseudoscientists believe what they do on account of ignorance and a lack of education.

ROF! You decided that a philosopher 2500 years ago showed a theory that didn't even exist in his time was wrong?

Did you also notice that Aristotle's ideas on how to do science are wrong? Of course not. You were too busy worshipping Aristotle.

BTW, "fundamentalism" refers to a religious belief centered on the five "fundamentals". I suggest you look up online the essays collected in "The Fundamentals".

And, of course, what do you do with all those Darwinists who, like me, are not atheists? Or all those ministers and Christians who, over the years, have been the plaintiffs in the court cases to keep evolution in public school science classes and keep creationism out?

 

[lucaspa]

Christianity missed the boat a long time ago when it comes to science, rather than try and drive a wedge between faith and science, they should have embraced it.

It did! Look at the quotes in my signature! The problem now is that we have a new religion -- Fundamentalism -- that takes the name "Christianity" but isn't. (and no, Wiccan_Child, this is not an argument about "true Christian". We can look objectively at the beliefs and tenets of Christianity and Fundamentalism and objectively decide that Fundamentalism does not hold to the beliefs and tenets of Christianity).

Unfortunately, all this does is expose christianity and its paltriness.

I'm not sure it does that. As an alternative hypothesis, I think this story may be a new atheist equivalent of the creationist "I used to be an evolutionist but ... " testimony. Just as the creationist never was an evolutionist, so the incident described in the OP never happened. But it makes a great story and illustration of what you already believe, doesn't it? Who cares if it is fact?

 

[Split Rock]

Well, they didn't outright banish me or anything. They simply told me I was being led astray and that I should come back to the Lord. The church was a Church of God in Christ. Might not help much, I didn't even know about denominations other than catholic or protestant until I was outside the church believe it or not. I cannot posts links as my post count is not 50, but I at least have the google imagery of the place. Google lists it only as "Church", and I cannot read the sign on the streetview, too blurry.

from Wikipedia Church of God in Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Church of God in Christ (COGIC) is a Christian denomination. It is an historically African American Holiness-Pentecostal church. The church has congregations in nearly 60 countries around the world. With a membership of over 5 million in 2007 it is the largest Pentecostal denomination in the United States and the second largest African-American denomination in the US after the National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.[2]"

"The COGIC is a Pentecostal holiness church and believes the Bible to be the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God. COGIC doctrine is trinitarian, stressing repentance, regeneration, justification and sanctification. The church teaches that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an experience subsequent to salvation and is given to all Christian believers who ask for it. Holiness of life and practice are emphasized. The ordinances of the church are water baptism by immersion, the Lord's Supper and foot washing (the ordinance of humility).The church believes in divine healing, however, it does not advocate the exclusion of medical supervision." <emphasis mine>

Not very surprising, from what you told us....

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Actually, none of the major denominations make the claim. The idea of "True Christian" for them was discarded in the wake of the Reformation Wars. Turning Germany into one huge cemetary to decide who was a "True Christian" soured them on the idea.

Hmm, I disagree. The 'True Christian' idea I was referring to was that every self-professed Christian considers herself to be a genuine Christian. She may consider other people whose beliefs differ from hers to be Christians as well, she may consider certain beliefs to be antithetical to Christianity. Most Christians I have spoken to reject, for example, 'Christian Wicca' as a legitimate form of Christianity. Even 'nice' Christians, such as yourself, are suspect to this - I daresay you consider yourself to be a Christian, judging by your faith icon.

Obviously, people who call themselves True Christians&#8482; are generally more explicit in who they exclude, and, like you said, they tend to be fundamentalists. Catholics and Mormons are typically the excluded groups, for reasons I can't fathom.

The claim of "True Christian" always comes from Fundamentalists (who aren't Christian).

I do hope you're being ironic

And that is why I asked the same question. To me, this is looking like the atheist equivalent of the creationist story "I used to be an evolutionist but ..." or even the atheist myth "all Christian denominations claim to be 'True Christian'.

I've yet to see a Christian denomination whose members reject the moniker of 'Christian'.

 

[Split Rock]

It did! Look at the quotes in my signature! The problem now is that we have a new religion -- Fundamentalism -- that takes the name "Christianity" but isn't. (and no, Wiccan_Child, this is not an argument about "true Christian". We can look objectively at the beliefs and tenets of Christianity and Fundamentalism and objectively decide that Fundamentalism does not hold to the beliefs and tenets of Christianity).


I'm not sure it does that. As an alternative hypothesis, I think this story may be a new atheist equivalent of the creationist "I used to be an evolutionist but ... " testimony. Just as the creationist never was an evolutionist, so the incident described in the OP never happened. But it makes a great story and illustration of what you already believe, doesn't it? Who cares if it is fact?

I agree with you that LifeToTheFullest! was painting with way too broad of a brush. in fact, there was a time when much of the best science was being taught in Bible colleges (and yes, some still do). However, I still disagree that we should not be calling Fundamentalist churches Christian. You may believe that they do not follow the tenents of what a Christian Church should follow, but they believe differently. They claim to be Christian. They believe Jesus is God and Savior. They read The same Bible as you do. They believe in Heaven and an after life. You can argue that their theology if flawed, and I agree. However, I do not buy into the idea they should not be called Christian.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

(and no, Wiccan_Child, this is not an argument about "true Christian". We can look objectively at the beliefs and tenets of Christianity and Fundamentalism and objectively decide that Fundamentalism does not hold to the beliefs and tenets of Christianity).

I'd be interested in seeing such an argument. The 'True Christian' thing tends to come about by people trying to nail down exactly what constitutes Christianity and Christian dogma - and any denomination or person who professes differently is denied the moniker of 'Christian'. So, unless I'm mistaken, to demonstrate that Fundamentalism isn't a genuine expression of Christianity by appealing to the latter's beliefs and tenets, you'd first have to define said beliefs and tenets, which puts you on the fast track to True Christian-hood



I'm not sure it does that. As an alternative hypothesis, I think this story may be a new atheist equivalent of the creationist "I used to be an evolutionist but ... " testimony. Just as the creationist never was an evolutionist, so the incident described in the OP never happened. But it makes a great story and illustration of what you already believe, doesn't it? Who cares if it is fact?[/quote]

 

[Chesterton]

All was fine and well until it came time for me to give a speech in church. As naive as I was, I decided to let everyone know what excited me so much. Science. Apparently they weren't as excited as I was and simply claimed I was being taken aback by the devil. They even went so far as to discredit everything I ever did not only in science class, but in my own independent study. With one swift blow, they could nullify my life's work into studying my surroundings.

Got an e-mail for any of these people? What city was this church in? This is so important, I'd love to try and talk to them, y'know, try and straighten 'em out.

 

[lucaspa]

I'd be interested in seeing such an argument.

The argument has been made by many, including me in several threads. You can look here:
http://www.newreformation.org/
http://www.newreformation.org/heresy3.htm

The 'True Christian' thing tends to come about by people trying to nail down exactly what constitutes Christianity and Christian dogma -... So, unless I'm mistaken, to demonstrate that Fundamentalism isn't a genuine expression of Christianity by appealing to the latter's beliefs and tenets, you'd first have to define said beliefs and tenets, which puts you on the fast track to True Christian-hood

Despite the sarcasm, the essential and necessary Christian beliefs are defined. They are in the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds. In addition, there are some basic things Christians must do and some things they must not do. The 10 Commandments is a partial list, and Jesus' Great Commandment is another. Everyone agrees on these.

Fundamentalism has as one of its 5 "fundamentals":
"Inerrancy of the Scriptures " Fundamentalist Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/fund.html
What is a fundamentalist Christian?

This is not part of either the Nicene nor Apostle's Creeds. What's more, it is basically bibliolatry, which is forbidden as idol worship in the First Commandment.

Also note how Fundies use the phrase "Word of God" to refer to the Bible, not Jesus.

 

[lucaspa]

I However, I still disagree that we should not be calling Fundamentalist churches Christian. You may believe that they do not follow the tenents of what a Christian Church should follow, but they believe differently. They claim to be Christian. They believe Jesus is God and Savior. They read The same Bible as you do. They believe in Heaven and an after life. You can argue that their theology if flawed, and I agree. However, I do not buy into the idea they should not be called Christian.

You never said "they believe in the same God as you do". That's where the difference is. Not only do they believe Jesus is God, but they believe the Bible is God. You can't be Christian if you are worshipping the Bible as a god.

Yes, they claim to be Christian, but we are interested in the reality, not the claim. A wolf in sheep's clothing claims to be a sheep, too. Do we say he is?

See my response to Wiccan_Child.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The argument has been made by many, including me in several threads. You can look here:
http://www.newreformation.org/
http://www.newreformation.org/heresy3.htm

Those links don't seem to work.

Despite the sarcasm, the essential and necessary Christian beliefs are defined. They are in the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds. In addition, there are some basic things Christians must do and some things they must not do. The 10 Commandments is a partial list, and Jesus' Great Commandment is another. Everyone agrees on these.

Well, not everyone. The Nicene and Apostle's Creeds weren't accepted by every self-professed Christian back when they were formulated, and they're not accepted by every self-professed Christian today. Swedenborgianism, for instance, does not accept the Nicene Creed in whole. The OT laws aren't held by everyone - most Christians don't shun shellfish, for example, though others denounce those who do eat shellfish. People even quibble over what the Ten Commandments precisely mean - "Honour thy mother and father? Even if they rape me?".

While I'll grant you that Jesus' statement in Matthew 22 is pretty hard to avoid whilst calling yourself a Christian, I daresay someone, somewhere does it.

So, by claiming that one must affirm the Nicene and Apostle's Creed in order to qualify as a Christian, you've set up a True Christian&#8482; system. Jehovah Witnesses reject the Nicene Creed, but nonetheless call themselves Christians.

 

[Gankutsuou]

Also, I have an update as to what the actual church is. I was at the Brecksville church of god of prophecy, which also holds the beliefs which Split Rock has pointed out about the church of god in Christ. The Church of God of Prophecy accepts the Bible alone as the inspired, infallible, inerrant word of God, and as the highest authority in matters of faith and practice.

This was 7 years ago, so I don't remember names other than the bus driver Lisa.

Like everyone else in America, I was brainwashed by fundamentalist atheist Darwinist pseudoscientists from the time I could crawl.

Except for the fact that I wasn't. I didn't even mention biology or evolution. I don't know what your grudge is about but perhaps you are missing the point here. I found science on my own, and I could do it at home. How can my church tell me that what I am seeing and experiencing is false? How can they possibly break down my very foundation of creativity in something that I loved? It wasn't Christlike, and if the church isn't Christlike, well... I can and will simply leave it.