Hey EgbertTheFourth,
I think this thread will come off confusing you more than helping, because each of us have slightly different focuses and ideas about our faith. Some will say sex before marriage is ok, some will believe in creationism and so on. This I think, is something that overall, Christians do very badly, is explain in simple terms their faith and it's reasons.
You for example will have issues with some things in the Bible, and from each of us you may well get a different explanation. Each of us, however, have a
complete picture of our faith and are trying to show you mere pieces of it, again - from each of us - that do not necessarily match up. Think of a jigsaw puzzle, each one of us is a complete puzzle that shows a complete picture. Yet here we are mixing and matching pieces.
This is why it is so important to discover these things for yourself, as you will eventually form a complete picture too.
I can see a lot of motives for someone to make something up like this. I don't know whether it has been made up or not, that's why I'm in doubt. The Bible also has got a lot of contradicting verses, which I find confusing.
The thing is, you need to ask if it's not only probable, but possible, for a work of fiction to move A) So many people to reform their lives and B) To withstand so much time. In addition, you need to really find out if these purported contradictions are in fact valid. Many, if not all, come from translational errors that scribes have made when translating from Hebrew and Greek to English.
So it's all a matter of faith rather than reason?
I don't think it's ever a matter of solely one or another. As I said, there will be questions that are out of reach for you now, as they are for all of us, and then there are those we can logically deduce.
Can't it just be because you know better yourself, even without the Bible?
Why? Why do
I know better? Let me ask you this, if you suffer from an ailment and pick up a book that describes it quite accurately, would you believe it - or would you think it's a fabricated trick?
If it were true, I think I would accept his offer. But is it the truth? I'll try finding out.
Well this is what I said earlier, what is your number 1 reason to have any doubt at all, about it's truth?
What about a baby that dies at the age of 1. He or she didn't have the chance to acknowledge God in the first place. Will he or she end up in Hell for this?
We are not told in the Bible, so we do not know for certain, but an ever-loving God would most likely (logically) not reject such a soul. It's questions like that which will leave you floundering as maybe each of us will supply a different response, yet none of which are Biblical.
Because earlier it was said that the only way to get to Heaven was to accept Christ's offer. However, not going to Heaven implies going to Hell. So... The baby will go to Hell?
Like I said, we are not told what will happen. If we put these things in context (which is another very important thing to do all the time) every reference to salvation in the Bible and our
choice of whether we accept it or not, is in relation to adults, not children. It may well be that God has a different plan for them altogether. Children are in no position to make such a choice as that, and it is this that God cares about, we are told.
Also, why do babies die so young anyway? Doesn't God love them?
If we are talking of God as we are shown in the Bible, then it is said that He loves all, equally. So I do not think that is the case, I do think however, that God will leave us to live our lives as we wish. We originally sinned, and we are still paying the price for that sin, if God ran about clearing up all our messes, he would be nothing more than a babysitter for us, what would we as humans ever really learn? Have you ever seen a child that has an over-protective parent? When they are finally given free reign of something, they often mess it up, act surprised that something bad happened and later repeat their mistake again. As much as we dislike such experiences, they do make us who we are, and it's through adversity that our real strengths as God has awarded us, shine through.
It depends. If I were infinitely powerful, then I would just laugh at his attempts, because isn't it impossible to undermine the power of someone who is ultimately powerful?
Not when you give them free-will. God is omnipotent, yet he is not controlling. I certainly wouldn't just laugh at someone who slanders my name, there would be a price to pay for it. If you give someone everything, and they not only reject it, but set about destroying and spreading a message that is contrary to your wishes, I am sure there would be a price for them too.
Hmm. If it's about faith, then why do we have reason? Did Satan give us reason to blind us for the love of God?
Satan has given us nothing other than disease and death in the world. All else comes from God. Logic too, did you see the passage I quoted, "Test everything. Hold on to the good." that means you reason, logical deduction and very real cerebral processes to reach a conclusion, which is what I'm asking you to do here, in this thread.
To be honest, I sort of know what you mean, I think. But I didn't have this when I was reading from the Bible. One morning I woke up and suddenly "realized" that creationism might be right after all. I saw people more like God's creation than just people, and not just people, but the whole world and everything that exists. It gave me a really strange feeling, but the "realization" faded away shortly after that.
I still think Creationism has the right of things, or at least a different approach, but then I don't think I would never stake my faith on it, as like I said earlier, scientific theories which are classified as 'good' ones, generally last only about 10 years or so, so to base my prospective salvation on a man-made theory (which could be fallable as we are) only to have it change radically, which would then subsequently radically affect my faith is not a wise call, in my humble opinion. But I guess this could happen with anything, something you read, see, experience will suddenly shine a very bright and real light on things, and you might well get the impression things are deeper than you thought. I still look around at the world, and how perfectly it's designed and can't shake the feeling it has a very real intent behind it.
I don't have much good to hold on to. Also, I'm not sure whether Christianity really suits me when I think about it. I generally dislike people, especially when I think of what they've done to me in the past. Mostly I've been treated better by animals than people. And for that reason, I find it hard to accept the Christian idea that people are worth more than animals.
*laughs* You sound like me, I generally dislike people too, I'm not much of a Christian for singing, dancing, clapping etc etc. If God has a problem with that, then I will happily face what He has to say, but I've tried to change it, and it's just not part of me. For a while I was roped into that almost, charismatic, aspect of Christianity, and I really disliked it for a while. To be honest with you, Christianity demands you unlearn almost everything in your life, and to do that all at once is nigh impossible. So take it slowly. Babies don't come out performing gymnastics, they learn to crawl first, then walk and so on.
The part that hurts me most is that I've been lied to and deceived by a Christian, one who I perceive as a die-hard Christian. She was supposed to be a friend, but I don't think friends push you away when you need them most. I know even Christians aren't perfect, but still, to give me all the blame and deny everything I say... She lived so much in her own "Christian" shell of self-righteousness that I couldn't let her know what she had been doing, because she just didn't want to see it.
Well, this is what I was saying earlier too, it's hard not to make a choice on Christianity when Christians make such a poor show of demonstrating it. It's like choosing a film to watch, and being asked to see one that contains handfuls of things you abhor. So I can't really help with that, but just because people do and say things in God's name, does not mean that they actually are doing His will.
God gave us the Bible, remember what it said? "Test everything. Hold on to the good." was what your friend did good? If not, discard it. There is no point in having the Bible if we don't listen to it's words.
That's something that adds up to my doubts about Christianity. If she was under influence of the Holy Spirit when doing those things, then what good would the Holy Spirit to me? I know you'll probably say that doesn't have got to do anything with the relation between me and God, but it does add up to my doubts, and I hope that can be understood.
I understand, and I think that's to be expected.
Well, like I said, my biggest problem is faith vs reason and not knowing whether the Bible actually represents the truth, and if it does, why it is sometimes contradictary with today's science (like evolution vs creationism).
That's not really a lowest common denominator, that's pretty much THE big question you are asking. You need to simplify it, if you have issues with Creationism vs Evolution, then you should know that Evolution doesn't contradict the Bible. Many Christians believe that Genesis was an allegorical story, meant to convey a message, not dictate historically accurate information. This is not something to
base your faith on though, but it does help to get it out the way. What else is there?
I can't say it's just this, because I would like to know whether Jesus was really divine too. You'll probably tell me about his miracles, but then we stumble on the question: did they really happen and how should I know? Faith?
Of course, but this is what I call domino'ing. People have an issue, and before it's addressed they have moved on to the next, and then the next and so on. You really, really need to sort out one issue, at least, finally. So it's put to rest, you know it was like A or B or whatever, and
then you can address the next. Else you go round and round in circles.
I'll make you the same offer I've made others here, if you want help with this, I will PM you my MSN and we can start at whatever point you like, and go through from there - I'll happily research things and send you articles and such.
Cheers!
Digit
