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Post Tribulation Rapture

Discussion in 'Exposition & Bible Study' started by thesunisout, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. thesunisout

    thesunisout growing in grace Supporter

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    Post Tribulation Rapture

    The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

    These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

    1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

    The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

    There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

    Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

    Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

    2 Peter 3:10

    But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

    Joel 2:31

    The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

    Malach 4:1

    For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

    Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

    Matthew 24:29-30

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

    Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

    Acts 1:11

    Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

    If Jesus returns the same way that He left, how could there by two phases to His return if the ascension only had one? It's a fair question which has no answer other than the obvious one; there couldn't be. If He returns the same way He left, He only returns once.

    Jesus also rules it out when He describes what His return will be like:

    Matthew 24:26-27

    Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

    Jesus is telling us that His return won't be a secret, only revealed to a select group. It will be visible to everyone, lighting up the entire sky. This rules out the theory of a "secret rapture", whereby Christ returns to gather His church unseen.

    At this point you might be saying, I can see why these verses and ideas contradict the idea of a pre or mid trib rapture, but that doesn't prove a post-trib rapture either. Indeed it does not. Thankfully, that isn't all that we have to go on to prove a post-tribulation rapture:

    Matthew 24:29-31

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

    Matthew 24 is an awesome chapter of scripture, where Jesus lists the signs we will see during the end times, especially concerning the tribulation. We see here that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days", where He gathers the elect after His visible return to the Earth. This is about as cut and dry as it gets, as it completely rules out a pre or mid trib rapture.

    Matthew 24:15-22 further clarifies that this is talking about the Tribulation period:

    15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

    The abomination of desolation is an event in the middle of the tribulation where the Antichrist sets up a corrupt image in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple. When this happens, God begins to pour out His wrath upon the Earth.

    Here is another scripture which definitely limits when the rapture can take place:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

    Paul says here that the rapture can't happen until "the falling away comes first" and the "man of sin is revealed". This places two conditions on when the rapture takes place. Have you ever heard someone teach that the rapture could happen at any time? That isn't true, according to this scripture.

    So when does the falling away happen and when is the man of sin revealed?

    Matthew 24:10

    And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

    This occurs near the middle of the tribulation, sometime after verse 9:

    Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

    This rules out the pre tribulation rapture altogether, since it cannot happen until the falling away occurs. When is the man of sin revealed? Let's look at what Paul says about it:

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

    Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    This is when the Antichrist takes off his mask and claims to be God. This is referring to the abomination of desolation we looked at earlier, which happens in the middle of the tribulation. Again, this is hard evidence which completely rules out a pre-trib rapture.

    Also note that, although it says it can't happen until the middle of the tribulation, it doesn't mean it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. We have already ruled out that possibility with Matthew 24:29-31.

    Two other things to notice. In verse 1 Paul is talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". Then in verse 3, he says that "Day". He is tying together the Day of the Lord and the rapture into one Day. This rules out the pre and mid tribulation rapture since they make those two separate events.

    In verse 3 we are admonished not to be deceived about all of this. He is warning us there will be a deception about the timing of the coming of the Lord and the rapture!

    Deception brings confusion, and never has been there been more confusion about the timing of the rapture today. Did you know that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a very recent idea, coming about in the last 150 years? From the beginning, the church has believed that it would face the Antichrist in the last days. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers:

    Augustine:

    But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints

    Hippolytus


    Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church

    Tertullian

    And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

    Irenaeus

    For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.” (Ibid., Chapter XXXV)

    I would like to bring up one scripture that is commonly used to object to a post-trib rapture:

    Revelation 3:10

    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

    The idea is that the church is kept from the hour of trial, or the tribulation, by removing them from the Earth. Since this would contradict the scriptures we have already reviewed, is there a better explanation? There is and we find it in John 17:15

    I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one

    The words for "keep from" in the greek are tereo ek, which is the exact same phrase used in Revelation 3:10, and the only other place it is used. In John 17:15 Jesus specifically said He didn't want the Father to remove the saints from the earth when trouble came, but to protect them from the the evil one. I believe this is the sense that is meant in Revelation 3:10.

    So what does all of this mean? To me it means that our hope can rest on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. Our hope can't be an escape from tribulation, because that hope will fail. Our only hope is Christ.

    I'm not excited about going through the tribulation but I know my Lord is able to protect me and get me through it. Unfortunately, most people are counting on escaping, and I think when it doesn't happen it will severely try their faith.

    I hope you will consider well these facts I have shared. Please don't take my word for it; study the scriptures and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you. We can't believe something just because someone else taught it to us; we need to know the truth for ourselves and how to prove it from the scriptures.

    John 8:32

    So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
     
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  2. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    There are two parts...

    a) the part of the Anti-Christ (following his time of false peace when he persecutes the saints of God)
    b) this period concludes at the Parousia when he is consumed by the brightness of Christ's return and the rapture and first resurrection occur
    c) then the wrath of God is poured out on the earth

    Scripturally the church is here until the parousia (rapture/Rez) which FOLLOWS after the 3 1/2 years of persecution...
     
  3. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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  4. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    THE TRIBULATION STORY



    Hello Sunisout:
    First; good article. Second, I have other things to say about this falsely used tribulation idea.

    The first place we see this word tribulation is in the Old Testament, 1 Sam 10:19. Here it has the meaning of a trouble with a woman. I find this very interesting, for who caused the tribulations in Genesis? Eve; the female. However, the true meaning of Eve is much deeper than the name and will not be entered into here.
    If one stops and considers how Jerusalem is referred to in the scripture of the Bible, they see that Jerusalem is a female gender. This is carried over into the Book of Revelation. She is the Harlot of writings in Revelation.
    This in itself should alert the reader that this is a figure of speech and not a literal meaning for tribulations: Though it could be in some circumstances. The context of the text needs to be carefully read and studied for the correct answer. To many time there are assumptions made that lead to all these false ideas of today. The apostle Paul said: Study to show yourself approved of God, rightly dividing the word of truth. He also warned of the many who would preach false ideas.
    Then, because of the lack of deep study, and the many false teachings being done in churches today, there is the false ideas of what this final tribulation really is. It is centered on the Jews, not the Gentiles. The whole book of Revelation is centered on the Jews. Yet, so many take and apply it for today. Beware, you reap what you plant. To get a better idea of what I have stated you might take a look at my Revelation Blog: Study of Revelation.
    Now as for the time given in the book of Daniel; the question must be asked, what is the time for which His vision was for? The correct answer to this is found in the book of Revelation.

    As for the verse of 1 Thessalonians which say this: Then WE WHO ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with Them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall WE, ever be with the Lord. Who is the WE that Paul was talking of? Were we with Him at that time when he stated this event? No, then who was? The other apostles and the believers that sought after Jesus Christ.

    Again, you are correct in man's ideas being three various things. Is God divided?

    Now as for The Day of The Lord being a day of judgment for the wickedness of man (mankind
    I assume you mean). Again, the judgment of all of mankind is not given in the Book of Revelation. Who was John told to give the message to? The seven churches in Asia. When was he to give it? In his time on this Earth. So then why dose man try and put it into this time frame? Because of false teaching and the lack of deep study as Paul advised all who are called to do; that is, The Elect of God.

    As for the reference to Joel and the sun and moon. See Gen.37.

    Gen 37:6 -8 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
    For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

    And his brethren said to Him, Shall You indeed reign over us? Or shall You indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.

    And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and His father rebuked Him, and said unto him, What is this dream that You have dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

    Here is figures of speech used to express deeper things of the spirit. It also shows that the sun and the moon are not the Sun and Moon that we observe.

    Consider now 2Peter 3:10-18:

    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? nevertheless We, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

    Final Words

    2Pe 3:14-18 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that you may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    You therefore, beloved, seeing You know these things before, beware lest You also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

    But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    Now if Peter wrote these things for those of His time, why do men try and change them? If the meaning of the figures of speech is given to us in Gen. 37, then why try and change them? Teachers having itching ears!

    I think I need not go further than this; although there is much more to it. Do as the apostle Paul said to do.

    Ti 2:15 Study to shew Yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.



    Andy Centek
     
  5. Volante Nocturno

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    Actually there is no mention in the bible of a post trib rapture...You confuse the rapture with the second coming....Two separate events.
     
  6. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    there is no mention in the bible of a post trib rapture...You confuse the rapture with the second coming....Two separate events.

    They occur in he same event...appentensis (going to meet Him or being gathered together to Him) occurs as He comes down. Even Paul's referenc3e makes this clear.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we (the Church) which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (the second coming or parousia) shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Next Paul ex[plains what will happen at the coming....

    a) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

    Hence at the coming, as He descends the resurrection occurs (first before the so-called rapture)

    b) Then we (the church) which are alive and remain (until His coming) shall be caught up together with them (those who died IN CHRIST that were resurrected) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    so AT THE COMING, the dead rise and they and us will be caught up to appentensis in the air. This is a Greek term when a procession of like minded people goes ahead and accompanies the person to their destination, which for Him is the earth (and the Anti-Christ who was still alive until His coming os consimed by His brightness.
     
  7. Volante Nocturno

    Volante Nocturno Member

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    How do you account for the fact that the bride meets Him in the air at the rapture? Then at the second coming Jesus' feet actually touch the ground? You have two separate events that are separated by a period of seven years.... You did do a good mix though, well blended but wrong.
     
  8. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    There is no 7 years in between...and the coming (the Parousia) IS when the dead rise and we are caught up (as He comes all the way down).
     
  9. Volante Nocturno

    Volante Nocturno Member

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    If you say so....It's in my bible...
     
  10. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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  11. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    THESUNISOUT:

    Please read my Blog, Study Of Revelation. You may find it answers many of your ASSUMPTIONS>

    Andy Centek
     
  12. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    Great! Can you show me where the Bible says there are seven years between our being gathered together to meet Him in the air and His touching all the way down? I never found that one.
     
  13. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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  14. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    Hello Sunisout:

    Hello and Blessings:
    The Bible does not say that there are seven years between OUR gathering together to meet Him in the air.
    This meeting Him in the error is a false teaching which came out of Europe in the earlier days by a woman.
    Everything that relates to someone meeting the Lord again is related to Israel, not the Gentiles. The apostle Paul does not say that the Gentiles will meet Him in the air. He being the apostle to the Gentiles would certainly have said that would happen; he doesn't say that. He does say that Him and the other Jewish disciples would meet Him.
    1Th_4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    Paul included Himself in that statement. So if he included himself, that means he expect that event in his time.
    I hope this helps you.
    Andy Centek
     
  15. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  16. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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  17. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    Vinsight4u:

    We are not told when Daniel was to arise; except it that the vision was yet for many days off.
    If one desires to make a guess, not relying on scriptures, then one could say that He was among those who were resurrected after the crucifixtion of the Lord Jesus Christ, when the graves were opened and many of the saints appeared unto many.
    Like I said: That would be an assumption,of which I am not willing to make.

    Andy Centek
     
  18. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  19. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    Hello finsight4u:

    Go your way; that is, continue onward in life until the end comes. For You shall rest and stand in Your place at the end of the days.
    Not the end of all things, rather the end of the days of the tribulations which Daniel was shown. We are never told of the end of this Earth, we are only told of the end of Israel; their earth, that is their land. The word earth needs carefull attention when study verses, for there is Earth, earth, and the land of the earth, and so on.

    Andy Centek
     
  20. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    Sorry Andy...I love your responses and will explore your blog myself...but Paul is speaking here to the Thesselonians (the Church...Jews and Gentiles one in messiah) and the "we" refers to him and them (mostly if not all were Gentiles).
     
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