Post-Trib Model Failure: The "Gathering" of Matthew 24 is NOT the Rapture

[zeke37]

Ez13 is a scripture that is against all false prophets,
and specifically even addresses the false pre trib rapture theory...

Israel does not equate to Jews, and is NOT just a few million people in the middle east...

 

[LovedofHim]

Ez13 is a scripture that is against all false prophets,
and specifically even addresses the false pre trib rapture theory...

Israel does not equate to Jews, and is NOT just a few million people in the middle east...

Let's have a look at it, shall we?

Biblegateway Ezekiel 13:

False Prophets Condemned

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: ‘Hear the word of the LORD! 3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets, Israel, are like jackals among ruins. 5 You have not gone up to the breaches in the wall to repair it for the people of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the LORD. 6 Their visions are false and their divinations a lie. Even though the LORD has not sent them, they say, “The LORD declares,” and expect him to fulfill their words. 7 Have you not seen false visions and uttered lying divinations when you say, “The LORD declares,” though I have not spoken?

8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
10 “‘Because they lead my people astray, saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace, and because, when a flimsy wall is built, they cover it with whitewash, 11 therefore tell those who cover it with whitewash that it is going to fall. Rain will come in torrents, and I will send hailstones hurtling down, and violent winds will burst forth. 12 When the wall collapses, will people not ask you, “Where is the whitewash you covered it with?”
13 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my wrath I will unleash a violent wind, and in my anger hailstones and torrents of rain will fall with destructive fury. 14 I will tear down the wall you have covered with whitewash and will level it to the ground so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it falls, you will be destroyed in it; and you will know that I am the LORD. 15 So I will pour out my wrath against the wall and against those who covered it with whitewash. I will say to you, “The wall is gone and so are those who whitewashed it, 16 those prophets of Israel who prophesied to Jerusalem and saw visions of peace for her when there was no peace, declares the Sovereign LORD.”’
17 “Now, son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who prophesy out of their own imagination. Prophesy against them 18 and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the women who sew magic charms on all their wrists and make veils of various lengths for their heads in order to ensnare people. Will you ensnare the lives of my people but preserve your own? 19 You have profaned me among my people for a few handfuls of barley and scraps of bread. By lying to my people, who listen to lies, you have killed those who should not have died and have spared those who should not live. 20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds. 21 I will tear off your veils and save my people from your hands, and they will no longer fall prey to your power. Then you will know that I am the LORD. 22 Because you disheartened the righteous with your lies, when I had brought them no grief, and because you encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways and so save their lives, 23 therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination. I will save my people from your hands. And then you will know that I am the LORD.’”


So, nope, you are incorrect. Ezekiel 13 is specifically written to the lying prophets of Israel who told Israel that everything is ok even though God said it wasn't. It was a case of the messengers delivering their own message for their own agenda. It goes on to speak of women who were prophesying out of their own imaginations just like the false prophets. There is no "specific" addressments of those who believe in a "pre-trib" rapture theory.


Now, if you want to apply to this to any false prophet, I suppose you could. I don't see how you can apply it to people who believe that the church is taken away before the day of the Lord and the outpouring of wrath because that isn't a false prophecy, but belief in the very Word of God.

 

[interpreter]

Matthew 24:30 and 31, and Rev. 16:1-2 should be taken together. The sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds on Oct. 28th, 312AD, and on that day the first Christian conqueror horseman appeared riding a white horse and conquering with a bow. And St. Constantine sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered all the Church together, to Nicea.

 

[zeke37]

lovedofHim

have you studied the Margret MacDonald rapture vision...

I realize that the word's pre and trib are not there...

but the context is there.




oh....i just read your last paragraph...you're one of them i guess.

I don't see how you can apply it to people who believe that the church is taken away before the day of the Lord and the outpouring of wrath because that isn't a false prophecy, but belief in the very Word of God.

the "rapture" happens after the whole ball of wax is over...
Satan has his wrath...the trib

and after that entire tribulation,
THEN the Lord returns, gathers us, and pours His wrath out...

the church is NOT taken out of the way during or before the antiChrist/Satan's reign

see Rev12:17 for one.

we are here for it all!

 

[LovedofHim]

lovedofHim

have you studied the Margret MacDonald rapture vision...

I realize that the word's pre and trib are not there...

but the context is there.

No, I haven't, sorry. I stick to scripture.

oh....i just read your last paragraph...you're one of them i guess.


the "rapture" happens after the whole ball of wax is over...
Satan has his wrath...the trib

and after that entire tribulation,
THEN the Lord returns, gathers us, and pours His wrath out...

the church is NOT taken out of the way during or before the antiChrist/Satan's reign

see Rev12:17 for one.

we are here for it all!

The antichrist is blaspheming "them who dwell in heaven" in Revelation13.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Does Revelation tell us who is dwelling in heaven at that point, for the antichrist to blaspheme?

I see it in Revelation 12:

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Who is that verse referring to?


10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Who are the people who overcome the devil by the blood of the Lamb and love not their lives unto death?
1 John 1:7

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Matthew 16:

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.




The people who dwell in heaven that the antichrist blasphemes are also seen in their new dwelling place here, confirming the timing of the church's departure as post-tribulation (tribulation is defined by Jesus in Matthew 24), pre-day of the lord/pre-wrath:


9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

[Zadok7000]

No wonder it doesn't make sense. There is a problem in translation.

Yes, that's it!

It refers to exactly what the context of the entire passage of verses is referring to: false prophets in Israel.

Anyone who teaches the pre-trib rapture is a false prophet, bottom line.

 

[zeke37]

lovedofHim

hi Jen

 

[LovedofHim]

lovedofHim

hi Jen

My name is Elizabeth. Hello Zeke!

And no, "pillows to arm holes to make men fly" doesn't even make sense let alone apply to those who believe Christ will come for the church, as promised.

Biblegateway John 14:


2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 

[zeke37]

God has His out stretched hands, ready to save,
but then false prophets (in this case specifically female ones)
come and put mittens/coverings on His hands with their false teaching

God is against those that teach His people to "fly" to save their souls...

the fly part is the interesting detail.....and in many peoples opinion,
specifies the false pre antiChrist rapture doctrine.

the false pre antiChrist rapture doctrine
is part of what teaches Israel (us) to go astray in the end times
and the result in such teaching and what happens to those teachers
is seen in Ez44, for one...

i think i'll call ya Jen

 

[LovedofHim]

God has His out stretched hands, ready to save,
but then false prophets (in this case specifically female ones)
come and put mittens/coverings on His hands with their false teaching

God is against those that teach His people to "fly" to save their souls...

the fly part is the interesting detail.....and in many peoples opinion,
specifies the false pre antiChrist rapture doctrine.

the false pre antiChrist rapture doctrine
is part of what teaches Israel (us) to go astray in the end times
and the result in such teaching and what happens to those teachers
is seen in Ez44, for one...

i think i'll call ya Jen

I'm sorry but that still doesn't make any sense.

Are we doing nicknames now? What shall I call you? How about "pillow muffin"?

 

[Choose Wisely]

2 Thess 2 teaches that 2 events MUST occur before the coming of Christ for his church - rapture. (Our gathering together as Paul states it)

1. Apostasy of people from God (could be Christians falling or a general concensus of people leaving in the belief of a supernatural being)
2. The man of sin (lawlessness) sitting in the temple.

Hi Nitescape,

2 thes 2 does not teach that. It is an incorrect conclusion that is quoted around here quite a bit. Reread those verses closely and see if you can draw a different conclusion.

 

[Choose Wisely]

The Feast of Pentecost was fulfilled by Jesus giving His Apostles the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (acts 2). This was historcially the day of the giving of the ten commandments. So instead of the commandments on stone, the Holy Spirit writes the law on our hearts.

Hi NJBeliever

Enjoyed your radio show. BTW the link to your blog doesn't work.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is an unfulfilled feast.
The Feast of Pentecost is a harvest feast. The harvest has not occurred.

 

[NJBeliever]

Hi NJBeliever

Enjoyed your radio show. BTW the link to your blog doesn't work.

Contrary to popular opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is an unfulfilled feast.
The Feast of Pentecost is a harvest feast. The harvest has not occurred.

Hey Choose -- Thanks for listening! We had major technical/audio issues in the first show, that will all be corrected for the second and the rest of them.

And I fixed the link on my blog. Thx again for that tip.

And I agree with you 100% about the Fall Feasts, although I think that the Feast of Trumpets is the next one up.

 

[NJBeliever]

Hi Nitescape,

2 thes 2 does not teach that. It is an incorrect conclusion that is quoted around here quite a bit. Reread those verses closely and see if you can draw a different conclusion.

Precisely.