Post-Trib Model Failure: The "Gathering" of Matthew 24 is NOT the Rapture

[Jensghost]

Come on, guys! You're so close!

 

[NJBeliever]

If we compare Dan 9:27 to 2 Thess 2 we see that the Anti Christ (man of sin) is revealed at mid week **WHEN** he sets up the statue in the temple during mid week.
Also when he declares he is god.

If we use this as a reference then we are told by Paul that we are not gathered until AC sits in the temple at mid week.

So rapture must be aftre mid week.
Which leaves us with 3 possibilities.

1. Rapture at mid week
2. Rapture during final 3 1/2 portion of 70th week.
3. Post trib rapture.

Now if we go back to matt 24 we see Jesus discuss the signs.
These go hand in hand with the seals.
Notice Jesus mentions the abomination of desolation during these signs.

This is the mid point again mentioned that compares to Dan 9:27 and 2 Thess 2.

Jesus mentions after all these things will be a gathering.
Which corresponds to Paul saying we are not gathered till man of sin is revealed.

it all fits nicely if we take all the scripture and compare then to each other.

To me, it appears to be post trib.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Where does it say he is "revealed" in the midst of the week? It says he stops the temple sacrifice. That is well after his revealing. A revealing is literally an identification. We will know who the antichrist is before he even has his total control of the globe. That should be quite obvious.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


The revealing of verse 3 is not contingent upon the action of verse 4 (hence the semi-colon). Paul is going on to say who the antichrist is and what he will do. It's a description of him, not an explanation of how he is revealed.

The Post-trib model has to do these types of things to work, which is why it is flawed. The Old Testament scriptures on the gathering of Israel clearly match with Jesus' words. But the post-trib has to overlook it. The description of the gathering is completely different from Pauls' description of the rapture, but that has to really, really, really be overlooked as well. They are clearly not the same event.

 

[zeke37]

"2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren,...."


it does not really matter what the world thinks because they are not the audience being addressed in this passage. It is believers being addressed. And the antichrist is going to be revealed so that WE will know who He is. Even if the world believes The Lie (which is the antichrist btw).

NJ, the Lord said trough Paul this about the revealing and when....

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

question...so, when?

answer...when the Lord comes...only THEN.

question...what happens THEN?

answer...that Wicked will be revealed THEN....not before THEN

 

[Jensghost]

NJ, the Lord said trough Paul this about the revealing and when....

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

question...so, when?

answer...when the Lord comes...only THEN.

question...what happens THEN?

answer...that Wicked will be revealed THEN....not before THEN

LOL!

The man of sin is revealed when the restrainer departs, is taken out of the way. That is the when/then.

The devil can do nothing while the church is here.

We were given power over him until Christ comes.

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

1Pe 1:5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[zeke37]

guess you can't read Jen...

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Jensghost]

guess you can't read Jen...

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I can read just fine. When the church who is the restrainer departs, the antichrist takes the stage. This is similar to Rev 12 and 13, where the church is dwelling in heaven, praising God that the Salvation and Kingdom have come when the devil is cast down, followed by the antichrist taking the stage and blaspheming the church who is dwelling in heaven.

2 Thessalonians 2


1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And before you say this is the dead in heaven, the dead do not get the reward before the living - the dead rise, we are all changed and caught up together. The salvation and kingdom do not come to only the dead, but to the entire church at the same moment in time.

Mar 8:35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

 

[Zadok7000]

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I believe verse 1 is discussing the rapture.

So this Gathering to Christ is the rapture, but when Jesus says the same thing, it's not the rapture. Got it!

 

[Zadok7000]

there is no up.....

That's the bottom line. If the Lord just wanted us in Heaven, we would all drop dead. He is coming here to reign for 1000 years, not pick up groceries.

 

[NJBeliever]

So this Gathering to Christ is the rapture, but when Jesus says the same thing, it's not the rapture. Got it!

Similarity does not equal sameness. Paul is explaining the gathering of Christian believers to meet The Lord Jesus in the clouds.

Jesus is describing the gathering is Isrealites to Israel at the end of the 7 year/70th week, which is done by angels that He sends out. Not the same event.

 

[NJBeliever]

That's the bottom line. If the Lord just wanted us in Heaven, we would all drop dead. He is coming here to reign for 1000 years, not pick up groceries.

if Jesus wanted us in Heaven, he'd probably go prepare a place for us to stay so that we can be with Him there. Oh wait, He did.

 

[Zadok7000]

if Jesus wanted us in Heaven, he'd probably go prepare a place for us to stay so that we can be with Him there. Oh wait, He did.

For 3.5 years? lol
I suppose all the dead in Christ from the past 2000 years are panhandling in the streets of heaven...

 

[NJBeliever]

For 3.5 years? lol

actually 7. And I can look forward to my mansion, but the post-trib model adherents cannot since you guys will be down on Earth suffering Gods wrath.

And before you laugh, see Psalm 84:10

 

[Zadok7000]

actually 7. And I can look forward to my mansion, but the post-trib model adherents cannot since you guys will be down on Earth suffering Gods wrath.

And before you laugh, see Psalm 84:10

:eyeroll:
You're talking to an ex-pretribber AND and ex-prewrather.

Didn't you say above the rapture is 3.5 years before the end? Correction, you said it is 3.5 years before the Abomination...
So you believe in a rapture 7 years in heaven for "true believers" (just as ludricious as 3.5 years there) - and yet you're not a pre-tribber. These mental gymnastics you engage in tire you out yet? They will...

 

[NJBeliever]

:eyeroll:
You're talking to an ex-pretribber AND and ex-prewrather.

Didn't you say above the rapture is 3.5 years before the end? Correction, you said it is 3.5 years before the Abomination...
So you believe in a rapture 7 years in heaven for "true believers" (just as ludricious as 3.5 years there) - and yet you're not a pre-tribber. These mental gymnastics you engage in tire you out yet? They will...

None of this changes the fact that Jesus said He has gone to prepare a place for us in HEAVEN. And the raptured saints with all the dead in Christ will live there for the time of the indignation. I hope you can join us.

 

[Jensghost]

Similarity does not equal sameness. Paul is explaining the gathering of Christian believers to meet The Lord Jesus in the clouds.

Jesus is describing the gathering is Isrealites to Israel at the end of the 7 year/70th week, which is done by angels that He sends out. Not the same event.

Uh, actually, the gathering is pretty much at the same moment. Our gathering takes, what?, a millisecond?

Have a look:


Joel 2:15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? 18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people


There is a reason that Revelation 7 shows both Israel and the church.
Revelation 7


1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

 

[Zadok7000]

None of this changes the fact that Jesus said He has gone to prepare a place for us in HEAVEN. And the raptured saints with all the dead in Christ will live there for the time of the indignation. I hope you can join us.

And I hope you will not continue to be deceived when Satan's time comes.

Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

[LovedofHim]

And I hope you will not continue to be deceived when Satan's time comes.

Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

pillows used to hunt souls to make them fly? Got a reference for that? That verse makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Zadok7000]

pillows used to hunt souls to make them fly? Got a reference for that? That verse makes no sense whatsoever.

You need to study Ezekiel 13 then.

 

[LovedofHim]

You need to study Ezekiel 13 then.

No wonder it doesn't make sense. There is a problem in translation. It refers to exactly what the context of the entire passage of verses is referring to: false prophets in Israel.

Biblegateway Ezekiel 13:

20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against your magic charms with which you ensnare people like birds and I will tear them from your arms; I will set free the people that you ensnare like birds. 21 I will tear off your veils and save my people from your hands, and they will no longer fall prey to your power. Then you will know that I am the LORD. 22 Because you disheartened the righteous with your lies, when I had brought them no grief, and because you encouraged the wicked not to turn from their evil ways and so save their lives, 23 therefore you will no longer see false visions or practice divination. I will save my people from your hands. And then you will know that I am the LORD.’”

 

[zeke37]

None of this changes the fact that Jesus said He has gone to prepare a place for us in HEAVEN. And the raptured saints with all the dead in Christ will live there for the time of the indignation. I hope you can join us.

"raptured" Saints do not ever go to heaven...
they stay here and are changed at the Lord's Coming.
and then gathered to Christ, when He comes with the returning dead


and that place that He prepared for us ALL, the "resting place"
was available WAY back then, and every century after that
for every Christian ever....
NOT only for us at the end times.....

it is not an end time reference or rapture reference at all...

it means; when we die, if we believe in Christ,
we go to a heavenly place that He (Christ) has prepared for us,
to wait there until it is time to come back to earth at His Coming (rapture).