Post-Trib Model Failure: The "Gathering" of Matthew 24 is NOT the Rapture

[NJBeliever]

I have decided to do a series on the Post-tribulation Rapture model. This model asserts that the rapture of the church occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation or "Great Tribulation" aka Daniel's 70th week. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


the "Gathering of Matthew 24"


The Post-Trib model forces its adherents to take the following verses as being the rapture:


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

Unfortunately, under clear Biblical scrutiny, the events of verse 31 are not the Rapture of the Church. The rapture is described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:



16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



This is the Rapture. And we need to pay close attention to the details to make sure we understand the event correctly. We are literally “caught up” and fly into the clouds when Jesus HIMSELF descends from Heaven. Jesus is the actor in the Rapture, not his angels. And we MEET HIM in the air. Again, we are not meeting angels. We are meeting Jesus. What is being described in verse 31 of Matthew 24 is something altogether different. In verse 31 the ANGELS are clearly the actors here. Jesus is sending them out. He is not the actor. Only a misreading or changing of Scripture can lead to a different conclusion.



So if verse 31 is not the rapture, then what is it? It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites. And of course, since the Bible ALWAYS has a type and shadow for every future prophetic event, we can find it in Scripture:



Jesus constantly affirms Old testament Scripture when he speaks in the Gospels. And this passage form Matthew is confirming several:


Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven outunto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

So we see the earliest mention of a gathering from the outmost parts of Heaven. But there is more:

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


So we see 4 clear aspects of each passage:
1. The elect, Israel, are gathered together.
2. There is a sign for the nations.
3. The great trumpet shall be blown.
4. They are gathered from the four corners of the earth.



Separately, these 4 concepts contain 8 elements:
1. The elect, Israel 2. are gathered together 3. there is a Sign 4. For the nations 5. Great Trumpet 6. Blown & sounds 7. From four corners 8. Of the Earth



The Biblical parallelism is quite clear once again. The passages from Deuteronomy and Isaiah have all of these elements and match with Matthew 24:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the prophesied gathering of the Jews. The parallels are unmistakable. And thus the post-trib model fails on this point. Because what it presumes to be the rapture, is not even the rapture.

So is there no mention of the rapture here? If anything it is in the “sign of the Son of Man” and the mourning of the nations. Those are references to a rapture that is pre-Great Tribulation. But that will be addressed in another thread.

 

[jeffweeder]

Hello
Jesus was the one who laid the foundation of the second coming doctrine.

He said .... behold , I have told you everthing about it.

So can you tell me were Jesus taught this seperate gathering, and why isnt it mentioned in the olivet discourses?

Paul never taught anything new, but said it was the Lords own word when he explained the rapture.

So tell me please, where does the Lord Jesus teach this.

 

[NJBeliever]

Hello
Jesus was the one who laid the foundation of the second coming doctrine.

He said .... behold , I have told you everthing about it.

So can you tell me were Jesus taught this seperate gathering, and why isnt it mentioned in the olivet discourses?

Paul never taught anything new, but said it was the Lords own word when he explained the rapture.

So tell me please, where does the Lord Jesus teach this.

This underscores my points with the pre-trib model. I have detailed the passages of Scripture that demonstrate that The Lord God Almighty clearly told the Jews that he would gather them from the outermost parts of Heaven. Jesus uses the exact same language in Matthew 24 to describe the same end times gathering. But instead of addressing the Scripture, you raise an arbitrary question as if I never explained myself. If you can show the Scriptural error, please do. I'm all ears. May The Lord bless you and keep you in the New Year.

 

[Bible2]

NJBeliever said:

Post-Trib Model Failure: The "Gathering" of Matthew 24 is NOT the Rapture

I have decided to do a series on the Post-tribulation Rapture model. This model asserts that the rapture of the church occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation or "Great Tribulation" aka Daniel's 70th week. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


the "Gathering of Matthew 24"


The Post-Trib model forces its adherents to take the following verses as being the rapture:


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

Unfortunately, under clear Biblical scrutiny, the events of verse 31 are not the Rapture of the Church. The rapture is described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:



16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



This is the Rapture. And we need to pay close attention to the details to make sure we understand the event correctly. We are literally “caught up” and fly into the clouds when Jesus HIMSELF descends from Heaven.

Note that Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same future second coming descent of Jesus Christ himself and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same future second coming descent of Jesus himself and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to have a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the wedding supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3) of Revelation chapters 6-18 so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13).

NJBeliever said:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

Regarding Matthew 24:31 referring to the church being gathered together from heaven only, note that the parallel verse in Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth. The souls of the dead in Christ will come back with Jesus from heaven at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15) and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will be resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all those in Christ who survived the tribulation on the earth will be raptured up together to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

NJBeliever said:

Jesus is the actor in the Rapture, not his angels. And we MEET HIM in the air. Again, we are not meeting angels. We are meeting Jesus. What is being described in verse 31 of Matthew 24 is something altogether different. In verse 31 the ANGELS are clearly the actors here. Jesus is sending them out. He is not the actor. Only a misreading or changing of Scripture can lead to a different conclusion.

Note that both Jesus and his angels are the actors in Matthew 24:30-31, and that the purpose of the angels gathering the church together isn't to meet the angels, but to gather the church together to Jesus himself (2 Thessalonians 2:1) to hold a meeting with Jesus in the clouds of the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17) at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

NJBeliever said:

So if verse 31 is not the rapture, then what is it? It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites. And of course, since the Bible ALWAYS has a type and shadow for every future prophetic event, we can find it in Scripture:



Jesus constantly affirms Old testament Scripture when he speaks in the Gospels. And this passage form Matthew is confirming several:


Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven outunto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

So we see the earliest mention of a gathering from the outmost parts of Heaven. But there is more:

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pas in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


So we see 4 clear aspects of each passage:
1. The elect, Israel, are gathered together.
2. There is a sign for the nations.
3. The great trumpet shall be blown.
4. They are gathered from the four corners of the earth.



Separately, these 4 concepts contain 8 elements:
1. The elect, Israel 2. are gathered together 3. there is a Sign 4. For the nations 5. Great Trumpet 6. Blown & sounds 7. From four corners 8. Of the Earth



The Biblical parallelism is quite clear once again. The passages from Deuteronomy and Isaiah have all of these elements and match with Matthew 24:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the prophesied gathering of the Jews. The parallels are unmistakable. And thus the post-trib model fails on this point. Because what it presumes to be the rapture, is not even the rapture.

So is there no mention of the rapture here? If anything it is in the “sign of the Son of Man” and the mourning of the nations. Those are references to a rapture that is pre-Great Tribulation. But that will be addressed in another thread.

Note that any parallels of Matthew 24:29-31 to the endtime gathering together of Israel prophesied in the Old Testament in no way contradicts the fact that Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the post-trib rapture of the church at the second coming of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9, cf. Exodus 19:6).

This is the case because all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are genetic Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

[Nitescape]

NJBeliever,

Thank you for starting this thread.
Obviously you care a lot for end time events and want to get it right.

I use to be a pre-trib believer but after careful study now believe it is a post trib event.

I think Bible2 has hit the nail on the head with his answer - not sure I can add to it but will try.


2 Thess 2 teaches that 2 events MUST occur before the coming of Christ for his church - rapture. (Our gathering together as Paul states it)

1. Apostasy of people from God (could be Christians falling or a general concensus of people leaving in the belief of a supernatural being)
2. The man of sin (lawlessness) sitting in the temple.

If you read Matt 24 you will see, starting with the false christs that the events line up with the book of revelation starting with the 1st seal.

During the speech of Jesus, mid way he mentions the abomination of desolation.

This lines up with 2 thess 2 and dan 9:27 that teach the Anti-christ will sit in the temple mid 70th week.

So we can see that Jesus doesnt mention anywhere duing that speech (Matt 24) of us being gathered except in 29-31 which takes place after the sun and moon events which are also at the end of the 70th week.

Many other places teach that we go at the last trumpet.
If we are raptured at the begininng of Daniels 70th week then how can the trumpets of Revelation sound?
There can be no more trumpets after we are raptured since we go at the last trump.

Also, in Rev 20: 4-6 we see that the 1st resurection includes those who rejected the mark of the beast.
If that is the 1st resurection then there can be no rapture at the start of Daniels 70th week since that 1st resurection includes those from the tribulation.

From a careful study we can see that it is one event when Christ returns for his church and that is at the end of Daniels 70th week.


God is good!

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever,

Thank you for starting this thread.
Obviously you care a lot for end time events and want to get it right.

I use to be a pre-trib believer but after careful study now believe it is a post trib event.

I think Bible2 has hit the nail on the head with his answer - not sure I can add to it but will try.


2 Thess 2 teaches that 2 events MUST occur before the coming of Christ for his church - rapture. (Our gathering together as Paul states it)

1. Apostasy of people from God (could be Christians falling or a general concensus of people leaving in the belief of a supernatural being)
2. The man of sin (lawlessness) sitting in the temple.

If you read Matt 24 you will see, starting with the false christs that the events line up with the book of revelation starting with the 1st seal.

During the speech of Jesus, mid way he mentions the abomination of desolation.

This lines up with 2 thess 2 and dan 9:27 that teach the Anti-christ will sit in the temple mid 70th week.

So we can see that Jesus doesnt mention anywhere duing that speech (Matt 24) of us being gathered except in 29-31 which takes place after the sun and moon events which are also at the end of the 70th week.

Many other places teach that we go at the last trumpet.
If we are raptured at the begininng of Daniels 70th week then how can the trumpets of Revelation sound?
There can be no more trumpets after we are raptured since we go at the last trump.

Also, in Rev 20: 4-6 we see that the 1st resurection includes those who rejected the mark of the beast.
If that is the 1st resurection then there can be no rapture at the start of Daniels 70th week since that 1st resurection includes those from the tribulation.

From a careful study we can see that it is one event when Christ returns for his church and that is at the end of Daniels 70th week.


God is good!

Nitescape -- Thanks for your thoughts. I would welcome you to address the point about the Old Testament repeatedly prophesying the gathering of the Jews at the end times. I think that this is the focal point I am trying to make here. In plain language, the rapture is not being described in Matthew 24:29-31. The language of the gathering of Israel is spot on with what Jesus describes. It is not the rapture. Yet the post-trib model hinges on this.

And for the record, I am NOT pre-trib. I think the pre-trib model as classically explained, is incorrect as well. I believe the rapture is at the the opening of the 6th seal, which without question is also the start of the Day of The Lord, or Great Tribulation. God bless.

 

[Nitescape]

Nitescape -- Thanks for your thoughts. I would welcome you to address the point about the Old Testament repeatedly prophesying the gathering of the Jews at the end times. I think that this is the focal point I am trying to make here. In plain language, the rapture is not being described in Matthew 24:29-31. The language of the gathering of Israel is spot on with what Jesus describes. It is not the rapture. Yet the post-trib model hinges on this.

And for the record, I am NOT pre-trib. I think the pre-trib model as classically explained, is incorrect as well. I believe the rapture is at the the opening of the 6th seal, which without question is also the start of the Day of The Lord, or Great Tribulation. God bless.

NJBeliever,

So you are Pre-Wrath?

If it happens at the 6th Seal, what about Paul's statement in 1 Cor 15:51,52 about the Christ-followers going at the 7th trumpet?

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever,

So you are Pre-Wrath?

If it happens at the 6th Seal, what about Paul's statement in 1 Cor 15:51,52 about the Christ-followers going at the 7th trumpet?

Paul never says anything about the 7th trumpet. He says the "Last Trump" which is a Hebrew idiom for the Feast of Trumpets. The Last Trumpet blown during Rosh Hashana is called the "Last Trump." The Rapture is Jesus' fulfillment of this feast, hence the idiom.

Jesus will fulfill every Jewish feast. All Christians agree He fulfilled Passover by dying on the cross, right? Well he fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits 3 days later by His Resurrection when He became the firstfruits of all of those who are resurrected to incorruption (hence Paul using the idiom "firstfruits" in 1 Corinthians 15). It is a direct allusion to this feast.

The Feast of Pentecost was fulfilled by Jesus giving His Apostles the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (acts 2). This was historcially the day of the giving of the ten commandments. So instead of the commandments on stone, the Holy Spirit writes the law on our hearts.

There is a break in the feasts on the Hebrew calendar. They break in the spring and resume in the fall at harvest time. WE are living in this break now. The church age is the time sow seeds for Jesus. This is why Jesus said to His disciples:

"Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest."

Again, this is a direct reference to the break between the spring and fall feasts. The next feast is Rosh Hashana and that is fulfilled by the Rapture. And the "Last Trump" is the trump that callls the assembly. And that will be when we are gathered and assembled in the clouds with Jesus. It has absolutely nothing to do with the 7th trumpet Judgment. That trumpet is for THEM (unbelievers). The Last Trump is for believers. And furthermore if you read the verse describing this trump carefully it says this:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The "last trump" is not the trumper of an angel. It is the trump of God. Two very different things (especially since the Bible teaches us that the Trump of God is God's voice, not a musical instrument).

(And no, I am not pre-wrath. I believe the Rapture happens at the 6th Seal, which the pre-wrath model correctly asserts. However, i believe the end-times starts at the 6th Seal as well, not at the 1st seal.)

 

[Jensghost]

Paul never says anything about the 7th trumpet. He says the "Last Trump" which is a Hebrew idiom for the Feast of Trumpets. The Last Trumpet blown during Rosh Hashana is called the "Last Trump." The Rapture is Jesus' fulfillment of this feast, hence the idiom.

Jesus will fulfill every Jewish feast. All Christians agree He fulfilled Passover by dying on the cross, right? Well he fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits 3 days later by His Resurrection when He became the firstfruits of all of those who are resurrected to incorruption (hence Paul using the idiom "firstfruits" in 1 Corinthians 15). It is a direct allusion to this feast.

The Feast of Pentecost was fulfilled by Jesus giving His Apostles the Holy Spirit on Pentecost (acts 2). This was historcially the day of the giving of the ten commandments. So instead of the commandments on stone, the Holy Spirit writes the law on our hearts.

There is a break in the feasts on the Hebrew calendar. They break in the spring and resume in the fall at harvest time. WE are living in this break now. The church age is the time sow seeds for Jesus. This is why Jesus said to His disciples:

"Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest."

Again, this is a direct reference to the break between the spring and fall feasts. The next feast is Rosh Hashana and that is fulfilled by the Rapture. And the "Last Trump" is the trump that callls the assembly. And that will be when we are gathered and assembled in the clouds with Jesus. It has absolutely nothing to do with the 7th trumpet Judgment. That trumpet is for THEM (unbelievers). The Last Trump is for believers. And furthermore if you read the verse describing this trump carefully it says this:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The "last trump" is not the trumper of an angel. It is the trump of God. Two very different things (especially since the Bible teaches us that the Trump of God is God's voice, not a musical instrument).

(And no, I am not pre-wrath. I believe the Rapture happens at the 6th Seal, which the pre-wrath model correctly asserts. However, i believe the end-times starts at the 6th Seal as well, not at the 1st seal.)

The last trumpet (a.k.a. "jubilee") is also the last Jubilee (every 50th year is a jubilee year during which trumpets are blown) of fallen flesh. It would be the year 6000 since the fall of man. (120 years (Gen 6:3) x 50 jubilees = 6000 years). Leviticus is where the description of the 50th year as "jubilee" is located.

The last trumpet is also the 2nd of two. See Joel 2.

The "end times" starts at the 5th seal, when the church is given her "robes of righteousness" (Rev 19), her "fine linen clean and bright" and is next seen standing in heaven, wearing those white robes (aka "garments of salvation (Isa 61) or "clothes of immortality" (1 Cor 15) before the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[zeke37]

I have decided to do a series on the Post-tribulation Rapture model. This model asserts that the rapture of the church occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation or "Great Tribulation" aka Daniel's 70th week. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct.


the "Gathering of Matthew 24"


The Post-Trib model forces its adherents to take the following verses as being the rapture:


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

Unfortunately, under clear Biblical scrutiny, the events of verse 31 are not the Rapture of the Church. The rapture is described in detail in 1 Thessalonians 4:



16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



This is the Rapture. And we need to pay close attention to the details to make sure we understand the event correctly.

Hi NJ...I think I will comment...as I find no discrepancy/contradiction between the gathering in Mat24/Mar13 and 1Thes4

and I do believe that 1Thes4 is set by the wording as to know exactly when this occurs

We are literally “caught up” and fly into the clouds when Jesus HIMSELF descends from Heaven.

I disagree coming out the gate...since I was pre trib, I really looked into this in the original langauge of these verses...

what you are believing is an errant english translation

"caught up" is just not in the manuscripts at all....
the Greek Word is properly translated "siezed"...

caught and up are not there.

Clouds...the author is Paul, and Paul uses the word cloud in a non literal way in Heb12:1, refering to a mass multitude
this must refer to the same, as Rev1's cloud refers to...
and every coming of Christ...His Multitude from heaven

Jesus is the actor in the Rapture, not his angels.

the Lord is Coming with His angels
they work for Him regardless...

And we MEET HIM in the air.

we meet Him in the air=spiritual bodies...
(think pneuma-pneumatic tires...1Cor15's mystery change)

we are changed and meet the returning dead in Christ,
He sends angels to gather us all together

Again, we are not meeting angels.

Yes we are...

We are meeting Jesus.

Yes we are

What is being described in verse 31 of Matthew 24 is something altogether different. In verse 31 the ANGELS are clearly the actors here. Jesus is sending them out. He is not the actor. Only a misreading or changing of Scripture can lead to a different conclusion.

Jesus is the one leading them
read it in Mar13 instead...


22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

of course it is the same event

So if verse 31 is not the rapture,

it is

then what is it?

the gathering to Christ, that is sometimes called the rapture

It is the endtime gathering of the Jews /Israelites.

then why all the warnings specifically to Christians.....and talk of elect

knowing that everyone who gets gathered, gets gathered at the same time,
and knowing who the Israelites are today,
might help clear things up

And of course, since the Bible ALWAYS has a type and shadow for every future prophetic event, we can find it in Scripture:



Jesus constantly affirms Old testament Scripture when he speaks in the Gospels. And this passage form Matthew is confirming several:


Deuteronomy 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven outunto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

So we see the earliest mention of a gathering from the outmost parts of Heaven. But there is more:

Isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


So we see 4 clear aspects of each passage:
1. The elect, Israel, are gathered together.
2. There is a sign for the nations.
3. The great trumpet shall be blown.
4. They are gathered from the four corners of the earth.



Separately, these 4 concepts contain 8 elements:
1. The elect, Israel 2. are gathered together 3. there is a Sign 4. For the nations 5. Great Trumpet 6. Blown & sounds 7. From four corners 8. Of the Earth



The Biblical parallelism is quite clear once again. The passages from Deuteronomy and Isaiah have all of these elements and match with Matthew 24:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.

This is clearly the prophesied gathering of the Jews.

not only the Jews, but the scattered northern tribes too....
both kingdoms were scattered....
the Christian nations are included in the scattered abroad...from the 4 corners...

The parallels are unmistakable.

I know...but are you sure you know who is being addressed NJ?

And thus the post-trib model fails on this point. Because what it presumes to be the rapture, is not even the rapture.

you are incorrect at this point...it is the rapture...
nothing you have said even remotely shows otherwise, at least IMO

So is there no mention of the rapture here? If anything it is in the “sign of the Son of Man” and the mourning of the nations. Those are references to a rapture that is pre-Great Tribulation. But that will be addressed in another thread.

you have failed to make even one point in this thread that would make me reconsider post trib.

what I see is that you have put stock into an errant english translation
because caught and up are not in the manuscripts

"siezed" is in the manuscripts
the Lord siezes us together...who?
the returning dead (as per 1Thes4:13-14)

you think the Lord is Coming with the dead (Clouds of believers) and then not even touching down????
I don't get it?



air is a synonym for spirit...
ie the spiritual body that we are all changed into at the Lord's Coming.

so, when the Lord does Come, He sends His angels...
and He gathers together the elect from heaven and earth...
just like both Mar13 and 1Thes4 show.

the alive are changed to be like the returning dead

they are "ressurected" in their returning spiritual bodies, here on earth.......




it is the ressurection of the dead...that is the timing of 1Thes4:13-forward.

how much more post trib can you get than that???????

 

[NJBeliever]

Hi NJ...I think I will comment...as I find no discrepancy/contradiction between the gathering in Mat24/Mar13 and 1Thes4

and I do believe that 1Thes4 is set by the wording as to know exactly when this occurs


I disagree coming out the gate...since I was pre trib, I really looked into this in the original langauge of these verses...

what you are believing is an errant english translation

"caught up" is just not in the manuscripts at all....
the Greek Word is properly translated "siezed"...

caught and up are not there.

You have to start with the first verb of the verse if you are going to complete this analysis. "The dead in Christ rise first.."

Rise: ἀνίστημι -- anistēmi

1) to cause to rise up, raise up
2) to rise, stand up

So the meaning established that the dead will be caused to rise up. And then we are going to be caused to rise up. Why? Because we are being translated and resurrected by Jesus. Not by an angel.

Clouds...the author is Paul, and Paul uses the word cloud in a non literal way in Heb12:1, refering to a mass multitude
this must refer to the same, as Rev1's cloud refers to...
and every coming of Christ...His Multitude from heaven

nephelē - 1) a cloud

Nothing here about a mass multitude.

the Lord is Coming with His angels
they work for Him regardless...

Not at the rapture. It says nothing about angels coming with Him in 1 Thess 4. And ironically Jude 14 says the Lord comes with His Saints at His Second Coming, again with no mention of His angels. So this idea that the angels always escort Jesus is just not Biblically supported.

we meet Him in the air=spiritual bodies...
(think pneuma-pneumatic tires...1Cor15's mystery change)

we are changed and meet the returning dead in Christ,
He sends angels to gather us all together

Again, it just doesn't say this. The post-trib model has to add this into ` Thessalonians 4 in order for it to work. Paul is very clear that Jesus is the intiator and actor of the rapture. Not any angels.

22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

of course it is the same event

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is clearly not the same thing. Jesus Himself is the actor in the rapture. He does not come with angels nor are they sent. You are just blatantly adding to the text. There's no other way around it. It's your only option to make the passages "the same."

then why all the warnings specifically to Christians.....and talk of elect

The word elect is one of the most dangerous in Christianity. There are elect believers, elect Israel, elect angels. Jesus is referred to as elect..

knowing that everyone who gets gathered, gets gathered at the same time,
and knowing who the Israelites are today,
might help clear things up


not only the Jews, but the scattered northern tribes too....
both kingdoms were scattered....
the Christian nations are included in the scattered abroad...from the 4 corners...


I know...but are you sure you know who is being addressed NJ?

I am not going down this particular rabbit hole. But I will respectfully disagree here and say that I believe Christians, while Jews inwardly are not "Israel." We have not replaced the nation of Israel.

you have failed to make even one point in this thread that would make me reconsider post trib.

That's okay, you don't have to reconsider it. Having once been a follower of the flawed pre-trib model, I know how attached we can become to our rapture theories once we start passionately defending them. I am just putting all the glaring flaws in the post-trib model on the record. Under basic Biblical scrutiny, it is a very incorrect model.

 

[Nitescape]

NJBliever,

I have a question for you.
How soon does your rapture view occur in relation to the man of sin sitting in the temple proclaiming he is god?

Thank you

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBliever,

I have a question for you.
How soon does your rapture view occur in relation to the man of sin sitting in the temple proclaiming he is god?

Thank you

Hi Nitescape,

I believe in Daniel's 70th week as the final 7 years of this world, starting at the 1st trumpet judgment. I also believe that the rapture occurs slightly before this week starts. And the Abomination would occur in the middle of this week. So basically the rapture would be a little more than 3 1/2 years beforehand.

I hope that makes sense. God bless.

 

[zeke37]

then what of 2Thes2:1-4

 

[zeke37]

Hi NJ...I think I will comment...as I find no discrepancy/contradiction between the gathering in Mat24/Mar13 and 1Thes4

and I do believe that 1Thes4 is set by the wording as to know exactly when this occurs


I disagree coming out the gate...since I was pre trib, I really looked into this in the original langauge of these verses...

what you are believing is an errant english translation

"caught up" is just not in the manuscripts at all....
the Greek Word is properly translated "siezed"...

caught and up are not there.
​

You have to start with the first verb of the verse if you are going to complete this analysis. "The dead in Christ rise first.."

Rise: ἀνίστημι -- anistēmi

1) to cause to rise up, raise up
2) to rise, stand up

So the meaning established that the dead will be caused to rise up. And then we are going to be caused to rise up. Why? Because we are being translated and resurrected by Jesus. Not by an angel.

u've jumped the gun....
caught and up are not in the manuscripts...

the returning dead in Christ, as per the promise of verse13-14,
return with Him.

they (the returning dead) are already in their spiritual (changed) bodies, which they received at flesh death...see 1Cor15

and it is those bodies that are "raised" here again, as promised...

then we who are alive are changed (hence the synonym for pneuma used here....air...

and we who are alvie and changed are gathered together with them in a great cloud of witnesses...


there is no up.....

there is siezed together...
the Lord causes us to be gahtered to Him,
whether His angels are directly mentioned or not...

and isn't the voice of the arch angel mentioned, hint hint...




here is the greek word that was wrongly translated as "caught up" in some english bibles...
and it's proper definition,
and all the wrongly translated english words...

do you know how to read the Strong's Concordance?



726
arpazw
harpazo
har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of aireomai - haireomai 138; to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Clouds...the author is Paul, and Paul uses the word cloud in a non literal way in Heb12:1, refering to a mass multitude
this must refer to the same, as Rev1's cloud refers to...
and every coming of Christ...His Multitude from heaven
​

nephelē - 1) a cloud

Nothing here about a mass multitude.

here is the Strong's...

3507
nefelh
nephele
nef-el'-ay
from nefoV - nephos 3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud:--cloud.


properly, cloudiness....or a cloud...depends on the context...
and that is what we are arguing...
but the difference is that I have biblical president for such a claim...

the fact is that Christ DOES come with a mass multitude when He comes...

MANY passages confirm this, a fact that I'm sure you agree with


and the very same author Paul, writes in Heb12...

1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

the Lord is Coming with His angels
they work for Him regardless...
​

Not at the rapture. It says nothing about angels coming with Him in 1 Thess 4.

really? then what of this????

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

seems like they are indeed mentioned...and even used in this coming...
it is this voice that I think calls us (the faithfull) to the Lord...

And ironically Jude 14 says the Lord comes with His Saints at His Second Coming, again with no mention of His angels.

really??? so you think He doesn't Come with angels any time then????

by the way, His Saints that He is taking about are the dead ones in heaven with Him....waiting to come back here...with Him

and that is seen multiple times in Rev alone...

who is this???


8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

the dead are angels....no biggie...no wings either, but no biggie...

So this idea that the angels always escort Jesus is just not Biblically supported.

of course it is...in mar13 and 1Thes4, and 1Cor15, and Rev19

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

this is of course at the same time as 1Thes4's Coming...
which is when the dead are raised....no up invoved at all...
Christ and the dead are Coming here...

the dead are raised to life on earth again....
we are changed to be like them

we meet Him in the air=spiritual bodies...
(think pneuma-pneumatic tires...1Cor15's mystery change)

we are changed and meet the returning dead in Christ,
He sends angels to gather us all together
​

Again, it just doesn't say this. The post-trib model has to add this into ` Thessalonians 4 in order for it to work. Paul is very clear that Jesus is the intiator and actor of the rapture. Not any angels.

Paul is clear that angels are incolved in all his teachings about Christ's Coming.

and the text was not written in English...
the scriptures say exactly that...

do you or do you not think that 1Cor15's Coming is the same as 1Thes4's?

the dead are raised in both so....

it actually amazes me that some think that the dead are raised some time before the Lord's Coming...

wow!

22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

of course it is the same event
​

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is clearly not the same thing.

sure it is...

Jesus Himself is the actor in the rapture.

are you suggesting that the Lord Himself does NOT descend,
and that the Lord is NOT the main actor in His very own 2nd Coming?

lol....
sorry, but that is a reaaaaaaalllllll bbbbiiiiggggg sssssttttrrrreeeccccch.

He does not come with angels nor are they sent. You are just blatantly adding to the text.

what? i add nothing...i deduce the truth from the text, hopefully...

who belongs to the voice of the arch angel then, if not an arch angel???
and I just proved to you that the dead are called angels in the bible...as per Rev22

and we have the timing as when the dead are raised...
of course they are the same

There's no other way around it. It's your only option to make the passages "the same."

what? they are the same....

then why all the warnings specifically to Christians.....and talk of elect
​

The word elect is one of the most dangerous in Christianity. There are elect believers, elect Israel, elect angels. Jesus is referred to as elect..

the warnings are specific to Christianity...
those who would be fooled by a false Christ
those who would understand the signs...

i hope you don't think that unbelieving Jews will understand the signs!!!

knowing that everyone who gets gathered, gets gathered at the same time,
and knowing who the Israelites are today,
might help clear things up


not only the Jews, but the scattered northern tribes too....
both kingdoms were scattered....
the Christian nations are included in the scattered abroad...from the 4 corners...


I know...but are you sure you know who is being addressed NJ?
​

I am not going down this particular rabbit hole. But I will respectfully disagree here and say that I believe Christians, while Jews inwardly are not "Israel." We have not replaced the nation of Israel.

the scattered tribes became other nations...
many of which are Christian based nations

you have failed to make even one point in this thread that would make me reconsider post trib.

That's okay, you don't have to reconsider it. Having once been a follower of the flawed pre-trib model, I know how attached we can become to our rapture theories once we start passionately defending them. I am just putting all the glaring flaws in the post-trib model on the record. Under basic Biblical scrutiny, it is a very incorrect model.

i completely disagree....
what is flawed is the belief that your part will be over at the 6th seal, when you place the 6th seal before the Lord's Coming in a flawed timeline.

that is the very time when the Lord needs us in the field, working for Him...grinding at the mill, on the roof tops as watchman....

we are needed then and half the church thinks they will fly away early,
regardless if you think it happens pre antiChrist or mid antiChrist or what ever

i think that anyone that does not understand a post trib Coming/Gathering(rapture)
is going to be easy pickings for the false Christ's lies...
hence my objection to anything but....

 

[Nitescape]

Hi Nitescape,

I believe in Daniel's 70th week as the final 7 years of this world, starting at the 1st trumpet judgment. I also believe that the rapture occurs slightly before this week starts. And the Abomination would occur in the middle of this week. So basically the rapture would be a little more than 3 1/2 years beforehand.

I hope that makes sense. God bless.

NJBeliever,

hello brother, thanks for answering my question.
I think I understand what you were saying.
You believe the 70th week (7 years) begins at the blowing of the 1st trumpet? That the Rapture of the believers happens prior to this?
That the man of sin is revealed mid week so that is after the blowing of teh 1st trumpet sometime? Is this correct?

If this is what you believe I don't see how we can reconcile this with Pauls teaching that the man of sin must be revealed 2 thes 2 & dan 9:27 BEFORE we are gathered to Jesus.
Help me understand your view of the time line.

Thank you,

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever,

hello brother, thanks for answering my question.
I think I understand what you were saying.
You believe the 70th week (7 years) begins at the blowing of the 1st trumpet? That the Rapture of the believers happens prior to this?
That the man of sin is revealed mid week so that is after the blowing of teh 1st trumpet sometime? Is this correct?

If this is what you believe I don't see how we can reconcile this with Pauls teaching that the man of sin must be revealed 2 thes 2 & dan 9:27 BEFORE we are gathered to Jesus.
Help me understand your view of the time line.

Thank you,

Hey Nitescape -- You have mostly of what I was saying:

Rapture: 6th Seal
70th week : Starts at 1st Trumpet; Antichrist enters global scene
Abomination: Middle of the week.

As for 2 Thessalonians 2:

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



I believe verse 1 is discussing the rapture. As for the antichrist, I think the verse is talking about his revealing, not his ascent to power. I think that he will be unmasked or identified by the Christian world just before the rapture. That is all the world "revealed" means there. At that time he wlll not be the global, all powerful ruler. (And we know from Revelation 17, he does have a rise in his power since he rules with the final 10 global kings before getting total control). So we learn who he is, and we are raptured thereafter.
And it would make sense anyways, since many Christians are already looking for him on a daily basis (including many in this forum).

 

[zeke37]

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

this is when and by Who, the son of Perdition is revealed....
until then, the world thought he was Christ

 

[NJBeliever]

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

this is when and by Who, the son of Perdition is revealed....
until then, the world thought he was Christ

"2 Thessalonians 2 1Now we beseech you, brethren,...."


it does not really matter what the world thinks because they are not the audience being addressed in this passage. It is believers being addressed. And the antichrist is going to be revealed so that WE will know who He is. Even if the world believes The Lie (which is the antichrist btw).

 

[Nitescape]

If we compare Dan 9:27 to 2 Thess 2 we see that the Anti Christ (man of sin) is revealed at mid week **WHEN** he sets up the statue in the temple during mid week.
Also when he declares he is god.

If we use this as a reference then we are told by Paul that we are not gathered until AC sits in the temple at mid week.

So rapture must be aftre mid week.
Which leaves us with 3 possibilities.

1. Rapture at mid week
2. Rapture during final 3 1/2 portion of 70th week.
3. Post trib rapture.

Now if we go back to matt 24 we see Jesus discuss the signs.
These go hand in hand with the seals.
Notice Jesus mentions the abomination of desolation during these signs.

This is the mid point again mentioned that compares to Dan 9:27 and 2 Thess 2.

Jesus mentions after all these things will be a gathering.
Which corresponds to Paul saying we are not gathered till man of sin is revealed.

it all fits nicely if we take all the scripture and compare then to each other.

To me, it appears to be post trib.