Possibly stupid newie question - What makes the idea of universalism bad?

[Zebra1552]

I suppose that is your opinion . i don't see how those verses can't mean what they actually say . i believe universalism is one of the teachings protected by the statement of faith in this particular area .

so i suppose that is the end of our conversation at this time .

if you were looking for a debate forum i would suggest the unorthodox theology forum .

The question of the OP is 'what makes the idea of universalism bad'. I chime in with an answer, and you all get on my case telling me I'm wrong. Does this make any sense to you? I'm answering the OP, and you're arguing with my answer. Of course I'm going to defend my answer.

Oh, and by the way... Universalism isn't protected by the SoF.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

ah touche, that is the topic . i'll bow out for now . as i've learned enough from conversing . time to let others chime in . hope you have fun .

 

[Octorock]

I wanted to address these comments:

Universalism makes the Cross pointless, and if it is that universalism comes about BECAUSE of the cross, then you make Christ a liar.

What part about not coming to the Father except through Jesus makes sense if in the end we all come to the father? Or about the folks that in the end will be saying "Lord, Lord" yet they will be dismissed as never being known? none of this can be possible if universalism is true.

If Jesus' death and resurrection on the cross led to universal salvation, wouldn't that mean that salvation is still done through Jesus?

And to build upon the burning building analogy, does somebody have to acknowledge you as their savior before you are able to rescue them from a burning building? What if they're unconscious? Do you wait in the smoky building to see if they wake up so that they can accept you as their savior, (and just watch them die if they don't,) or do you just sling them over your shoulder, carry them outside, and let them figure out later what happened and who saved them?

 

[lismore]

Thank you for ignoring what I actually posted. The verse:
1Co 15:22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

This verse is like a see-saw. If all die in adam then all must be made alive in Christ. All cant mean everyone in the first part then mean only some in the second.

 

[trek4fr]

This verse is like a see-saw. If all die in adam then all must be made alive in Christ. All cant mean everyone in the first part then mean only some in the second.

I don't agree with the following exegesis, Lismore, but the typical fundamental response to this is:

"No one has a choice of whether they are born "in Adam" or not. Paul makes it clear that every human is born "in Adam." But it is only those "in Christ" who will be made alive. We must put our personal faith in Jesus in order to be "in Christ." So, yes, all who are "in Christ" will be made alive."

I don't at all agree with this exegesis. But I've heard it a number of times.

At the same time, as far as I can tell, most fundamentalists believe that even the wicked will be raised or "made alive" for the final judgment. But I don't think that is the point Paul is trying to make here either.

The interesting notion of "eternal life" that most conservative fundamentalists hold to is this: EVERYONE gets "eternal life." EVERYONE gets the gift of immortality. It is just that some spend their "eternal life" or immortality in heaven and others spend their "eternal life" or immortality in hell. So the Greek notion behind the conservative fundamentalists' view on this is that, contrary to 1 Tim 6:16 that says that God ALONE is immortal, we all have immortal souls that have to go on living in one place or the other.

 

[lismore]

If Jesus' death and resurrection on the cross led to universal salvation, wouldn't that mean that salvation is still done through Jesus?

It perhaps would be the only view of salvation done exclusively by Jesus. He would have done it all! He would be the author and finisher of the faith.

On the other hand if someone preaches Jesus and personal good works for salvation, then you've done as much as Jesus.

Or if you preach Jesus and also some religious hurdles, baptism or whatever, then religion has done as much as Jesus. And you've also got problems. What happened to the people who died before that religous hurdle was invented?

 

[lismore]

I don't agree with the following exegesis, Lismore, but the typical fundamental response to this is:

Thanks!

IMO the most straightforward explanation is often the correct one.

If a person has to create a very complicated explanation to get around a simple passage, I leap to the conclusion that perhaps he has missed what the passage is saying.

All in adam fell, all in Christ were raised.

 

[Zebra1552]

This verse is like a see-saw. If all die in adam then all must be made alive in Christ. All cant mean everyone in the first part then mean only some in the second.

Thank you so much for again ignoring what I posted about that verse. I so very much appreciate it and look forward to being ignored again in the future.


Just because all are alive doesn't mean all get eternal life. It's a well-known fact of the Bible that everyone will spend eternity somewhere and that there is life after death.

 

[Zebra1552]

Thanks!

IMO the most straightforward explanation is often the correct one.

If a person has to create a very complicated explanation to get around a simple passage, I leap to the conclusion that perhaps he has missed what the passage is saying.

All in adam fell, all in Christ were raised.

If a person has to ignore the Bible to make a verse fit what they think it says, perhaps that person has missed what the context should be telling them.

 

[trek4fr]

It's a well-known fact of the Bible that everyone will spend eternity somewhere and that there is life after death.

Actually, Jaws13, it's not. Rather, it's a well-known misunderstanding in Christianity.

What the Bible literally teaches is that the wicked perish, that they die and cease to exist. According to the Bible, immortality is a gift to the righteous, not something that everyone gets. That is why, in Revelation, the wicked experience what John called "the second death." They die again.

What you espouse is that everyone gets eternal life. Some spend their eternal life in heaven. Others spend their eternal life in hell. This is certainly NOT what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that we are mortals and that if we gain immortality, it is a gift from God for the faithful. In your view, which is more Greek than biblical, everyone is immortal. Greek thinking quickly crept into the church after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. And it is still rampant there today with its notions of people floating off to heaven - pure Platoism.

 

[Zebra1552]

Actually, Jaws13, it's not. Rather, it's a well-known misunderstanding in Christianity.

What the Bible literally teaches is that the wicked perish, that they die and cease to exist. According to the Bible, immortality is a gift to the righteous, not something that everyone gets. That is why, in Revelation, the wicked experience what John called "the second death." They die again.

You ripped John's words out of context there as the rest of my post shows. You think it's a misunderstanding that people live for eternity somewhere? Then prove it.

What you espouse is that everyone gets eternal life. Some spend their eternal life in heaven. Others spend their eternal life in hell. This is certainly NOT what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that we are mortals and that if we gain immortality, it is a gift from God for the faithful. In your view, which is more Greek than biblical, everyone is immortal. Greek thinking quickly crept into the church after the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. And it is still rampant there today with its notions of people floating off to heaven - pure Platoism.

It certainly is what the Bible teaches:

Let's bear in mind that a Greek word can have several English meanings and it is the literary and historical context that tells us what its meaning is.


Rev 21:6 Then he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life.
Rev 21:7 Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

Second death. The Greek for 'second' is very, very clear. You can't argue around it. Therefore, 'death' cannot be talking about a physical death. You cannot physically die twice (medically, you can, but not physically as the Bible uses it- they had no notion of being 'medically dead'). So death:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
Thayer Definition:
1) the death of the body
1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
1b1) the power of death
1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness, i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
2) metaphorically, the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name
2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

Since it cannot be 1, it must be 2, 3, or 4. Any way you slice this passage, it is not talking about everyone going to heaven- certainly not immediately. They must at least spend some time in misery after they die from their sins. But wait. The passage also talks about the lake of fire. That phrase is used elsewhere.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
Rev 20:15 and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

You again cannot get around this verse either. Anyone's name not found in the book of life goes to the lake of fire. Whether you interpret this literally or metaphorically, the meaning is clear. Some people don't make it at the end, in the final judgment. But there's that lake of fire reference again.

Rev 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The lake of fire is a place where people are tormented day and night 'forever and ever'. Greek:

G165
αἰών
aiōn
Thayer Definition:
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age
Part of Speech: noun masculine

The word is used twice. Even if you wanted to use 3, it would read 'for ages and ages'. 2 Would not make sense. Those who enter the lake of fire are tormented for ages and ages, forever.

So let's go back to Matthew 25, which there seems to be some confusion about:

Mat 25:46 "TheseG3778 will goG565 awayG565 into eternalG166 punishmentG2851, but the righteousG1342 into eternalG166 lifeG2222."

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective

The Greek is very clear. It cannot be 1 or 2, therefore it must be 3. Those who do not meet the standard go to a punishment that has no end. The same word is then used in verse 41:

Mat 25:41 "ThenG5119 He will alsoG2532 sayG3004 to thoseG3588 on His leftG2176, 'DepartG4198 from Me, accursedG2672 ones, into the eternalG166 fireG4442 which has been preparedG2090 for the devilG1228 and his angelsG32a;

Again, the lake of fire, and again, it has no end.

 

[trek4fr]

Let's bear in mind that a Greek word can have several English meanings and it is the literary and historical context that tells us what its meaning is.

Much agreed. So let's keep in mind that lexicons and Bible dictionaries don't fall from heaven but are written by theologians who have their own bent in pushing certain doctrines their way.

For instance, Jesus makes "eternal life" real easy to understand. He says, in John 17:3, that eternal life is knowing God and knowing himself, because he reveals God's character. For the author of the gospel of John, eternal life means the same thing as the kingdom of God (in Luke and Mark) or the kingdom of heaven (in Matthew). It doesn't refer to a "place you go to after you die" or to "life after death." It refers to God's transforming presence with us here and now, if we would only have eyes to see and ears to here it.

It is Hellenized Christianity that turned "eternal life" from God's will being done here and now on earth (as Jesus taught it) into a future reward located far above the clouds in another "time and place." Jesus stood in a long line of Jewish prophets that believed that God created humans for the earth and that God would redeem it through compassionate, just communities. In contradistinction, many Christians believe that "this world is not my home, I'm just a'passin' through, my treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue" and "I'll fly away to my home on God's celestial shore."

What does all of this have to do with universalism? For those who hold to everlasting torment, God is unable to redeem all of his creation. Creation is forevermore marred. Jesus did what he could to save the world, but it just wasn't good enough. Satan, according to pop Christianity, keeps most of humanity in rebellion against God and being tortured by him forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

 

[Zebra1552]

Much agreed. So let's keep in mind that lexicons and Bible dictionaries don't fall from heaven but are written by theologians who have their own bent in pushing certain doctrines their way.

Thayer's is not a lexicon, it is a English-Greek dictionary that coincides with Strong's Numbers.

For instance, Jesus makes "eternal life" real easy to understand. He says, in John 17:3, that eternal life is knowing God and knowing himself, because he reveals God's character. For the author of the gospel of John, eternal life means the same thing as the kingdom of God (in Luke and Mark) or the kingdom of heaven (in Matthew). It doesn't refer to a "place you go to after you die" or to "life after death." It refers to God's transforming presence with us here and now, if we would only have eyes to see and ears to here it.

Nowhere in that verse does it make any comment on eternal life being God's presence here and now. Your interpretation contradicts the two verses preceding it:
Joh 17:1 After Jesus had spoken these words, he looked up to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you,
Joh 17:2 since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.

Jesus is saying that those who know Him, and through Him, the Father, are those who have eternal life.

It is Hellenized Christianity that turned "eternal life" from God's will being done here and now on earth (as Jesus taught it) into a future reward located far above the clouds in another "time and place." Jesus stood in a long line of Jewish prophets that believed that God created humans for the earth and that God would redeem it through compassionate, just communities. In contradistinction, many Christians believe that "this world is not my home, I'm just a'passin' through, my treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue" and "I'll fly away to my home on God's celestial shore."

None of this information refutes the information I provided.

What does all of this have to do with universalism? For those who hold to everlasting torment, God is unable to redeem all of his creation. Creation is forevermore marred. Jesus did what he could to save the world, but it just wasn't good enough.

Obviously it is good enough if millions of Christians are being saved. Probably billions. You are rewording everlasting torment to say that God is unable to do something: This is not what everlasting torment says, so your statement is a straw man argument. Everlasting torment says that those who reject God get thrown into the lake of fire for failing to recognize Christ for what He was. God will not save those who do not wish it. Romans states that creation is forever marred, as does Genesis, and Revelation says that God will make this new.

Satan, according to pop Christianity, keeps most of humanity in rebellion against God and being tortured by him forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...

Straw man argument. I said nothing about Satan torturing anyone or causing rebellion against God.

 

[Jase]

Personally I think Christianity totally screwed up the Hell doctrine since it's not Jewish at all. The Jews prior to the 1st Century were greatly influenced by the Persians and some of their theology on dualism (God vs. Satan), angels, and hell crept into early Christianity.