Possibly stupid newie question - What makes the idea of universalism bad?

[trek4fr]

And now for the popular evangelical translation (PET):

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ SOME will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. But death will go on forevermore in a place called hell. (I Cor. 15:20-26)

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile SOME things to Himself, having OFFERED peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col. 1:15-20)

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of SOME men, ONLY of believers. (1 Tim. 4:10)

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; for ours only, NOT for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

And SOME created things which are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and SOME things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13)

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to SOME men. (Romans 5:15-21)

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. " I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness. And will not turn back, That to Me SOME knees will bow, SOME tongues will swear allegiance. "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. "In the LORD SOME OF the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory. (Isaiah 45:22-25)

...Being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus SOME knees should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and SOME tongues confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:8-11.)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of SOME things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth (Ephesians 1:8b-10) For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to SOME. (Romans 11:32)

 

[trek4fr]

To Jaws 13: Thanks for chatting with me about the subject of universalism and the reliability of the Bible. For the sake of peace and goodwill, I am going to drop my part in this conversation at this point. If people are seriously interested in studying the subject and history of Christians universalism, there are plenty of resources on the internet that facility further investigation.

What I'd like to say, in conclusion, is to echo what Paul said to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 5:21 - Prove (or test) all things; hold to what is good. This is not a one-time effort, but an ongoing, lifetime healthy skepticism. Test what people say, even people in the Bible. But hold to what is good. That, to me, is the important thing. Again, Jesus said that his followers would be known by their good fruit, not by how reliable they think the Bible is or by their view of the extent of salvation. We may disagree about some things, but I would hope that we would be in agreement that the mark of Christians, whether conservative or liberal or in between, should be compassion and love. Our goal should be to be more like Christ, and we each have to do that as best as we know how.

Blessings to ya!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Test what people say, even people in the Bible. But hold to what is good.

Nice

gotta love those trump cards Jesus left in the text .

 

[Zebra1552]

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits,
after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (I Cor. 15:20-26)

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col. 1:15-20)

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Tim. 4:10)

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13)

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (Romans 5:15-21)

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. " I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in ighteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "They will say of
Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory. (Isaiah 45:22-25)

...being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:8-11.)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the
summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth (Ephesians 1:8b-10)
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32)

All of those verses show me is that you don't actually study what you quote to see if it actually says what you claim it says. They don't. The Greek behind 'all' is not 'every person'- although that CAN be what it means, depending on context- but everyone in a group in most cases. Since you're bowing out, I won't get into details, but every one of the verses you quote has be ripped out of context to try to show that Paul teaches universalism. This isn't the case.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

All of those verses show me is that you don't actually study what you quote to see if it actually says what you claim it says. They don't. The Greek behind 'all' is not 'every person'- although that CAN be what it means, depending on context- but everyone in a group in most cases. Since you're bowing out, I won't get into details, but every one of the verses you quote has be ripped out of context to try to show that Paul teaches universalism. This isn't the case.

So .. you are saying "all" did not die through Adam?

 

[Zebra1552]

So .. you are saying "all" did not die through Adam?

I did insert 'depending on context'. Haven't you read Romans 3:23?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I did insert 'depending on context'. Haven't you read Romans 3:23?

okay

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians+15:22&version=KJVFor as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

it's in the same context .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

So if the the offense caused "many" to be dead, and all the more by the grace of God many Jesus Christ has abounded unto ..

Is Many really Many? it's the same sentence .

 

[Zebra1552]

okay

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

it's in the same context .

It's not the same context at all. Hades will give up the dead, but they still get sentenced. Just because everyone's alive doesn't mean everyone gets eternal life. This is the ripping out of context I was talking about.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's not the same context at all. Hades will give up the dead, but they still get sentenced. Just because everyone's alive doesn't mean everyone gets eternal life. This is the ripping out of context I was talking about.

It's in context of the same sentence . you're the one taking it out of context .

you're painting your own ideas on top of what is actually being said . instead of reading plainly what is actually being said .

 

[Gregory Thompson]

1 Timothy 4

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Savior of all people ..

Especially those who believe . meaning the rest who are not especial he is the savior of also?

so i'm gonna take a look at this .

so assuming everything happened that was written in the way God meant it .

So we're after the judgment and the Spirit and the newly Resurrected and perfected Bride call out to all who never heard, never cared, never understood, never believed . "Come" to the water of life and drink freely .

it still allows for all that is written to have happened .

this is speaking of "after what is written"

because Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, Jesus said "I came to save those who were lost" and when we see Him we will become just like Him because we will see Him as He is .

and we will see all this judgment and condemnation of the ages . was as in the beginning . Adam and Eve were infected with sin personified and judged without mercy . so this world we see now has resulted . and the church too were infected with sin personified and the gospel that is not good news at all is a result . but lovely traces .. even today .

YouTube - ‪DC Talk - Consume Me‬‏

 

[trek4fr]

As you probably know, Michael, there are approximately 100 verses in the Bible that either explicitly or implicitly support the notion of what we might call universalism, that all of mankind will someday be reconciled to God. The evidence (I don't want to call it 'proof') is there if people's heads and hearts are open to it. But as this thread demonstrates, it seems that many in orthodox Christianity have already made up their minds on this subject, as any scriptural support is immediately dismissed as being "pulled out of context" and no verses, for those already convinced they know all of God's truth, are seen to be 'problematic' for their viewpoint. So, for me, arguing with some Christians who insist that the Church's doctrine of hell is inerrant and infallible while also insisting that "all" does not mean "all" become fruitless.

Personally, I lean towards preterism in my eschatological approach. So I suspect that many of Jesus' warnings about entering or missing the kingdom of God pertain to his call to his Jewish audience to abandon making war against their Roman 'enemies' and, instead, to love them as God does. They ignored Jesus' warnings and pursued war, with the result being the burning of Jerusalem around AD70.

Nevertheless, I also believe that call is still open to us today. We can seek and pursue God's kingdom on earth, as Jesus taught us to pray and work for, or we can pursue our own kingdoms and reap destruction. But the wages of sin is death, not everlasting torment. While I don't adhere to a literal interpretation of the doctrine of the atonement, if Christians believe that Jesus was in some sense their substitute, then he did not suffer everlasting torment in their place, only death and a sense of being separated from the Father.

Ultimately, though, I don't find the notion of universalism convincing because verses on universalism outweigh verses on everlasting torture by a certain percent or count. I find the notion attractive and persuasive because of what I believe I know and experience of God as love. If Jesus, as our best representative of God's character, didn't kill or torture anyone, then I find it extremely unlikely that God himself would do so. But, IMO, there is little doubt that the Church changed the scriptures to support the doctrine of hell. After all, if you can threaten people with everlasting torment, you can get them to do and believe almost anything else.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yeah that makes sense .

I'm more leaning on Universal Reconciliation and look at hell like purgatory except its for everyone . the idea of "inescapable love" sounds about right . i mean if death frees from sin why then is the lake of fire called the "second death?" odd choice of words if you ask me .

my eschatological view is open ended . so if someone is coming from a preterist viewpoint i address that . and from a futurist view point i address according to those assumptions . because in all honestly i'm living in that question . i see equal validity in a number of views and can't really pick one .

And i agree, just because there's no fear mongering to beat people into line . doesn't mean there isn't work to do . his love prompts us to do great things .

 

[ghendricks63]

As you probably know, Michael, there are approximately 100 verses in the Bible that either explicitly or implicitly support the notion of what we might call universalism, that all of mankind will someday be reconciled to God. The evidence (I don't want to call it 'proof') is there if people's heads and hearts are open to it. But as this thread demonstrates, it seems that many in orthodox Christianity have already made up their minds on this subject, as any scriptural support is immediately dismissed as being "pulled out of context" and no verses, for those already convinced they know all of God's truth, are seen to be 'problematic' for their viewpoint. So, for me, arguing with some Christians who insist that the Church's doctrine of hell is inerrant and infallible while also insisting that "all" does not mean "all" become fruitless.

Personally, I lean towards preterism in my eschatological approach. So I suspect that many of Jesus' warnings about entering or missing the kingdom of God pertain to his call to his Jewish audience to abandon making war against their Roman 'enemies' and, instead, to love them as God does. They ignored Jesus' warnings and pursued war, with the result being the burning of Jerusalem around AD70.

Nevertheless, I also believe that call is still open to us today. We can seek and pursue God's kingdom on earth, as Jesus taught us to pray and work for, or we can pursue our own kingdoms and reap destruction. But the wages of sin is death, not everlasting torment. While I don't adhere to a literal interpretation of the doctrine of the atonement, if Christians believe that Jesus was in some sense their substitute, then he did not suffer everlasting torment in their place, only death and a sense of being separated from the Father.

Ultimately, though, I don't find the notion of universalism convincing because verses on universalism outweigh verses on everlasting torture by a certain percent or count. I find the notion attractive and persuasive because of what I believe I know and experience of God as love. If Jesus, as our best representative of God's character, didn't kill or torture anyone, then I find it extremely unlikely that God himself would do so. But, IMO, there is little doubt that the Church changed the scriptures to support the doctrine of hell. After all, if you can threaten people with everlasting torment, you can get them to do and believe almost anything else.

Excellent post.

 

[Zebra1552]

It's in context of the same sentence . you're the one taking it out of context .

I'm pretty sure 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 3 are NOT the same sentence.

you're painting your own ideas on top of what is actually being said . instead of reading plainly what is actually being said .

Prove it.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I'm pretty sure 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 3 are NOT the same sentence.

I find it odd that you take forever to respond and expect me to care .

and on top of that use confusing speech (saying i was saying .. what i obviously wasn't saying) to attempt to give validity to your argument .

but anyway . that out of the way .

1st Corinthians 15:22, the two alls are in context of the same sentence .

Romans Chapter 5:15 (quoted above) is in context of the same letter as Romans 3 .

 

[lismore]

Prove it.

If 'all' doesnt mean 'everyone' then they've changed it since I went to school!

 

[Zebra1552]

If 'all' doesnt mean 'everyone' then they've changed it since I went to school!

Thank you for ignoring what I actually posted. The verse:


1Co 15:21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being;
1Co 15:22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

Just because all are alive doesn't mean all get eternal life. It's a well-known fact of the Bible that everyone will spend eternity somewhere and that there is life after death.

I find it odd that you take forever to respond and expect me to care .

and on top of that use confusing speech (saying i was saying .. what i obviously wasn't saying) to attempt to give validity to your argument .

but anyway . that out of the way .

1st Corinthians 15:22, the two alls are in context of the same sentence .

Romans Chapter 5:15 (quoted above) is in context of the same letter as Romans 3 .

Romans 5:15 doesn't show anything that proves your point, and I addressed the 1 Corinthians verse several posts ago, and it was not to say that the two alls mean different things. So if you want to talk about confusing people, you created a straw man argument and then passed it off as mine.

 

[Zebra1552]

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits,
after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (I Cor. 15:20-26)

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col. 1:15-20)

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Tim. 4:10)

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13)

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (Romans 5:15-21)

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. " I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in ighteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "They will say of
Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory. (Isaiah 45:22-25)

...being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:8-11.)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the
summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth (Ephesians 1:8b-10)
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32)

All of those verses show me is that you don't actually study what you quote to see if it actually says what you claim it says. They don't. The Greek behind 'all' is not 'every person'- although that CAN be what it means, depending on context- but everyone in a group in most cases. Since you're bowing out, I won't get into details, but every one of the verses you quote has be ripped out of context to try to show that Paul teaches universalism. This isn't the case.


^^^ This is what I posted earlier. I made a general statement then addressed the fact that most of these verses are ripped out of context, both of their respective books and the Bible as a whole. Nowhere did I say 'all' did not mean 'all', I said it CAN mean both 'everyone' and 'some people of some group' depending on context.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thank you for ignoring what I actually posted. The verse:


1Co 15:21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being;
1Co 15:22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

Just because all are alive doesn't mean all get eternal life. It's a well-known fact of the Bible that everyone will spend eternity somewhere and that there is life after death.


Romans 5:15 doesn't show anything that proves your point, and I addressed the 1 Corinthians verse several posts ago, and it was not to say that the two alls mean different things. So if you want to talk about confusing people, you created a straw man argument and then passed it off as mine.

I suppose that is your opinion . i don't see how those verses can't mean what they actually say . i believe universalism is one of the teachings protected by the statement of faith in this particular area .

so i suppose that is the end of our conversation at this time .

if you were looking for a debate forum i would suggest the unorthodox theology forum .