Possible Worlds and Free Will

[SkyWriting]

So, if one has enough freedom, why would he complain that no one is absolutely free?

Oh, yes, may be you are not free from unhappy. That is a good complaint. Should we be emotionless and thus become free from emotion? Or, you are free from emotion by being sad when you like to be sad and being happy when you like to be happy? God tells us that we will not be sad anymore in the Heaven. Is so, are we going to be more free or be less free?

Completely free. Thanks.

 

[mmksparbud]

No, satan has not fought God until he was expelled from the Heaven.
Even after he was expelled, he is still not fighting God directly. He can not.
An angel "catches" satan at the end.

(Rev 12:7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

(Rev 12:8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

(Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Don't know what you call rebellion, but this is rebellion enough for most people! What do you call a war in heaven??---it wasn't a picnic!

 

[Achilles6129]

I'm curious to know what kind of anti-theist has a philosophy that involves God doing anything at all...

A lot of them.

That apart, if he really wanted A & E not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but was reluctant to interfere with their free choice, he could simply have made the fruit inaccessible or uneatable;

That would have directly interfered with their free choice. The examples you give (turning rocks into pizza, etc.) have nothing to do with obeying/disobeying God. The point is that each creature has to have the ability to obey/disobey God freely; in other words, completely independently of God.

I also wonder what he'd have done if Adam, ignorant of good and evil, had killed Eve for her transgression (worse things happen in the OT), then killed himself in a fit of remorse...

I would say that Adam killing himself in a fit of remorse would never happen if Adam were perfect. However, supposing Adam had never fell it might certainly be possible that Eve might have died (by Adam killing her or perhaps by God killing her) and then God might have created another spouse for Adam.

Another thing that puzzles me is that, if Satan - as was said earlier - was 'perfect', how could he rebel? Is this some kind of perfection that includes imperfection?

You need to go back and read the OP. The choice to obey/disobey God's commands is made independently of God. It must be or the creature has no free choice.

 

[Achilles6129]

Then you have a theological problem.

How?

 

[juvenissun]

(Rev 12:7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

(Rev 12:8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

(Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Don't know what you call rebellion, but this is rebellion enough for most people! What do you call a war in heaven??---it wasn't a picnic!

Is there any difference between betray and rebel?
I would agree that satan betrayed God.

 

[quatona]

How?

Because you are demanding a logical contradiction.

 

[mmksparbud]

In this case-----nope! He did both, the rat!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A lot of them.

Such as?

That would have directly interfered with their free choice.

How? there were plenty of other things inaccessible to them - did the creation of those things interfere with their free choice?

I would say that Adam killing himself in a fit of remorse would never happen if Adam were perfect.

If Adam was perfect, why was he kicked out of Eden?

You need to go back and read the OP. The choice to obey/disobey God's commands is made independently of God. It must be or the creature has no free choice.

So you can be perfect and also evil? How is 'perfect' defined in this context?

 

[Achilles6129]

Because you are demanding a logical contradiction.

How am I demanding a logical contradiction?

 

[Achilles6129]

Such as?

Anti-theists use God as a given all the time when they talk about philosophy or theology. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

How? there were plenty of other things inaccessible to them - did the creation of those things interfere with their free choice?

Again, this relates specifically to the morality of obeying or disobeying God, nothing else.

If Adam was perfect, why was he kicked out of Eden?

He wasn't perfect when he was kicked out.

So you can be perfect and also evil? How is 'perfect' defined in this context?

Not at all. You can be perfect and have the choice to disobey God.

 

[quatona]

How am I demanding a logical contradiction?

You demand a degree of your "free will" that in Christian theology is not to be had. Your God has limited your "free will" in numerous ways right from the start.

 

[Achilles6129]

You demand a degree of your "free will" that in Christian theology is not to be had. Your God has limited your "free will" in numerous ways right from the start.

Please explain how. I don't find that at all in Scripture.

 

[quatona]

Please explain how. I don't find that at all in Scripture.

Yes, right. "Free will" isn´t mentioned in your scripture at all.

 

[Achilles6129]

Yes, right. "Free will" isn´t mentioned in your scripture at all.

Clearly if you have the ability to obey/disobey God's commands then you have free will. Why would God tell you to obey his commands unless you could make a free choice?

 

[Davian]

Clearly if you have the ability to obey/disobey God's commands then you have free will. Why would God tell you to obey his commands unless you could make a free choice?

Do you consider belief to be a conscious choice?

 

[quatona]

Clearly if you have the ability to obey/disobey God's commands then you have free will. Why would God tell you to obey his commands unless you could make a free choice?

Circular reasoning makes me all dizzy, sorry.

 

[mmksparbud]

Circular reasoning makes me all dizzy, sorry.

What's so "circular reasoning" about the statement?? Makes sense.

 

[quatona]

What's so "circular reasoning" about the statement?? Makes sense.

- Go, brush your teeth.
- There is no toothbrush.
- The fact that I told you to brush your teeth is proof that there is a toothbrush.

Does that clarify?

 

[mmksparbud]

No---"do not do this"---means you have the ability to do it---as in --"Do not go and brush your teeth"--would not be necessary to say if you couldn't do it anyway.

 

[quatona]

No---"do not do this"---means you have the ability to do it---as in --"Do not go and brush your teeth"--would not be necessary to say if you couldn't do it anyway.

Well, your bible is entirely clear about us being unable to be sinless. So much for that.