Possible Worlds and Free Will

[mmksparbud]

Well, your bible is entirely clear about us being unable to be sinless. So much for that.

Well---It also says this----
(Joh 5:14) Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
(Rom 6:12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
(1Co 15:34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Eph 4:26) Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


and we do not achieve it because----

(Heb 12:4) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Free will. Personally, I find it's not all that wonderful, If there was a button I could push that would turn me into a sinless little robot--right about now, I think I'd push it, I need the rest!

 

[ToddNotTodd]

But there's a fatal flaw in the argument: if God deliberately creates a "possible world" in order to elicit a certain action that he wants from people (such as Adam/Eve not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) then in reality such creatures don't really have "free choice" at all. Therefore, God can't create such a world because any creatures that he created would only have the illusion of free choice! In other words, if God is involved in any way in influencing or selecting the choice of his creatures to obey or disobey his commands, then they aren't really free!

Demonstrably false.

 

[Achilles6129]

Do you consider belief to be a conscious choice?

Depends on what you mean by "belief". In the New Testament "believing" often means more than just intellectual belief and actually means something physical.

 

[Achilles6129]

Well, your bible is entirely clear about us being unable to be sinless. So much for that.

We're able to be sinless through Christ.

 

[Achilles6129]

Demonstrably false.

Please show how.

 

[Davian]

Depends on what you mean by "belief".

"an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." - google

In the New Testament "believing" often means more than just intellectual belief and actually means something physical.

Well, the Bible may be self-serving, like using a General Motors product brochure as a means of determining the quality of their products.

Do you consider belief to be a conscious choice? Do you think that someone can simply, consciously, decide that gods are real, and then consider whether to obey a certain one, or not?

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes, right. "Free will" isn´t mentioned in your scripture at all.

Paul covers the idea quit a bit.

 

[quatona]

We're able to be sinless through Christ.

So much for the demand of "free will" being independent of God. QED

 

[quatona]

Paul covers the idea quit a bit.

Any quotes at hand?

 

[Dave RP]

A prominent anti-theistic philosophy is to suggest that God could have somehow created creatures in such a fashion that they would "freely choose" to obey his commands and thus not "freely choose" evil. This idea is known as the "possible worlds" hypothesis.

The idea is simple: this world must be one nearly an infinite number of "possible worlds." For example, there's a possible world where the sky is green instead of blue, and so on. Isn't there one possible world, the anti-theist asks, where Adam and Eve don't take and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or where the vast majority of God's creatures "freely choose" to obey his commands? If so, why didn't God create that possible world? The suggestion is that God is apathetic, irresponsible, or that he is really the one to blame for his free creatures choosing evil, since he made them that way.

But there's a fatal flaw in the argument: if God deliberately creates a "possible world" in order to elicit a certain action that he wants from people (such as Adam/Eve not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) then in reality such creatures don't really have "free choice" at all. Therefore, God can't create such a world because any creatures that he created would only have the illusion of free choice! In other words, if God is involved in any way in influencing or selecting the choice of his creatures to obey or disobey his commands, then they aren't really free!

So the only way for there to actually be a free choice is for God to refrain from influencing his creatures to obey/disobey his commands or "select" anything for them from the get-go. I propose that God does exactly that: human free choice is completely independent of God, which is the way it has to be for anyone to really have free choice. If human free choice is completely independent of God, then there is no such thing as a "possible worlds hypothesis."

Could God, then, have created a world where Adam and Eve freely choose to obey him in the garden of Eden, or where the vast majority of his creatures freely choose to obey his commands? The answer, if free will is truly independent of God (and it must be), is no.

Surely God (or Gods) if all powerful can create as many worlds as they want, maybe we're all part of some immense God's of the Universe "God's got talent" show where the various Gods set up huge numbers of worlds and get marked on how successful they are.

marking criteria - how intelligent is the dominant species, (we'd get a good mark for that one), do they look after the planet (a bad one for that) and do they worship their God (a bad one for that).

hence there may be numerous of other worlds which will explain why God created such a vast universe, it was to ensure there were sufficient planets for the game to be meaningful.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Please show how.

Do you believe that I have free will of the type that's outlined in the OP?

 

[Achilles6129]

So much for the demand of "free will" being independent of God. QED

How would being able to be sinless through Christ somehow violate free choice?

 

[Achilles6129]

Do you consider belief to be a conscious choice? Do you think that someone can simply, consciously, decide that gods are real, and then consider whether to obey a certain one, or not?

I wouldn't see why not.

 

[Achilles6129]

Do you believe that I have free will of the type that's outlined in the OP?

Yes. You are independent of God and can make the free choice to obey/disobey his commands independently of him.

 

[Davian]

I wouldn't see why not.

How about yourself then? Can you decide to believe that gods are nothing other than characters in books for the next three days?

 

[quatona]

How would being able to be sinless through Christ somehow violate free choice?

Well, you were the one saying that in order for there to be free will the choice must be independent of God.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Yes. You are independent of God and can make the free choice to obey/disobey his commands independently of him.

Ok, time for a thought experiment.

Let's say I'm put into a room with a six year old and I'm told I can (A) molest the child if I wish and not suffer any penalty. Or I can (B) do something else with the child (play with it, ignore it, etc.). I choose option B. Let's say you repeat this experiment every day of my life. I will, ceteris paribus, choose B every single time.

So we have a moral situation where even though I have the free will to choose A I never do choose A. Extrapolate this and you can see that a god could have created a world in which we have the free will to do evil things or disobey god or whatever, but never actually choose to do so. All the time remaining free-willed creatures in the manner you describe in the OP.

 

[Chriliman]

God created us to have free will because God is just and only He has the will to do what is right in every single moment for all eternity because He is what is right.

If God created us so he could control our will then no one can be punished or rewarded for what they have done, because it would be God making them do it, thus rendering existence meaningless.

God gives existence meaning and God has given us free will so that we may freely choose the right path to a meaningful life for eternity.

Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

God makes the invitation known, it's up to us to accept it. Once you accept it, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Nobody who's alive on earth right now, truly knows what it's like to be set free from all evil and deception.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

God created us to have free will because God is just and only He has the will to do what is right in every single moment for all eternity because He is what is right.

If God created us so he could control our will then no one can be punished or rewarded for what they have done, because it would be God making them do it, thus rendering existence meaningless.

God gives existence meaning and God has given us free will so that we may freely choose the right path to a meaningful life for eternity.

Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

God makes the invitation known, it's up to us to accept it. Once you accept it, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Nobody who's alive on earth right now, truly knows what it's like to be set free from all evil and deception.

That doesn't actually address the fact that a god could have created us so that we retain our free will but never choose to do those things that get us into trouble.

 

[Chriliman]

That doesn't actually address the fact that a god could have created us so that we retain our free will but never choose to do those things that get us into trouble.

A perfect God can only create beings with complete free will, meaning they can freely choose their own will and not the perfect God's will, but they can also freely choose the perfect God's will. This is the only way a perfect God can be perfectly just.