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Possible Worlds and Free Will

mmksparbud

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God created Adam and Eve----He formed them from mud, and Eve also from one of Adams ribs---and that was the end of creation-----From there on, for animals and everything else--it has been up to the creations themselves--genetics and so on. He did not physically form anything else. He gave everything the ability to pass on that life through procreation. He may know what any 2 people will end up producing, but He doesn't force them to mate. Our decisions are our own, He allows us to go our own way---with some leading and guiding and, at times, protecting. He created Lucifer perfect--he chose to rebel. And nobody knows how long he was without sin before he rebelled. But it was his choice. He dwelled on himself and he learned how to deceive the other angels. He didn't gain their confidence by saying how wonderful God was, he discredited Him, accused Him--that is what Satan means, accuser. He gained subtlety and Adam and Eve had only one thing to do--obey God. He said do not eat that---they didn't have to know anything else, just do as they were asked to, but they were told the end result of that disobedience. God had the rest of the universe to think about---Satan lured 1/3 of His angels, but how many other worlds were there that had not fallen and they were all watching---was Lucifer right or not??? God had the stronger power, but who is right?? God has let the whole universe see what the end result of listening to Satan brings. The whole universe watched His Son be crucified, they have seen what has happened on this planet and they no longer wonder. They know now and will never wonder again. The end result now is that God has been vindicated from Satan's' accusations, and the rest of the universe, including those on this earth who believe, will never have any questions about God's love for His beings again.
 
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Eudaimonist

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If God creates a "possible world" which he deliberately selects because he "knows" Adam and Eve won't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good/evil then their free will is not independent of God. God has tampered with their choices already, and they're really automatons.

It doesn't mean that at all. It simply means that he has maneuvered them into playing his game, and with his omniscience he knows that. Adam and Eve would still be making real choices, but not with all of the information they need to realize their situation.

You can tamper with a person's choices, but that doesn't mean that you have removed their ability to choose.

The only point that can be made here is that Eve's choice was simply not a moral one, since she did not yet have knowledge of good and evil.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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GrowingSmaller

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So when God said to Eve...

Wait...?

What...?

She had NO clothes on?

Who can do philosophy in that kind of environment anyway? So that was Gods plan, he gave us the apple so that we might cover up and philosophise!!!

I take it that the feminist perspective is different. Maybe. Health and safety reasons. Adam had to cover up in order to get some work done to provide for the kids.
 
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juvenissun

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"Free" in this case means totally free. There is no restriction. If there is a restriction, such as God "selectively" created you in order to do this, that, or the other, then you aren't really free and really aren't culpable for your actions.

The definition is wrong to start with. That is why you get stuck.
If a man is Totally Free, then why would this man need God?
You may ask an atheist: are you a totally free man? Atheist knows no God. So it is possible that the answer is a Yes. If so, you have an example of true freedom.
 
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elopez

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This idea is known as the "possible worlds" hypothesis.
Leibniz is more commonly found to have originally spoke on the idea of possible worlds. In his theodicy he argued in conclusion that this is the best possible world God could have made. I think the idea of 'possible worlds' was made more renowned from David Lewis's theory which amounted to a concretist view.

The idea is simple: this world must be one nearly an infinite number of "possible worlds.
I do not find the idea of possible worlds simple at all. Normally two questions are put forth to those who espouse a PW argument:

• What is a possible world?

• What is it for something to exist in a possible world?

There are three typical stances on PW, one of which is concretism as mentioned, abstractionism, and the other combinatorialism. Each stance has contrasting answers and implications for the questions asked, making PW theory more confusing.

For example, there's a possible world where the sky is green instead of blue, and so on.
On an abstractionist view, the PW where the sky is green would be further illustrated with increasing successions to the depiction in order to come to the most complex way things could possibly be. So, the sky would be green; the sunrise, however, would be a lighter shade of green; the night sky would be a dark purple, and so on.

Isn't there one possible world, the anti-theist asks, where Adam and Eve don't take and eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or where the vast majority of God's creatures "freely choose" to obey his commands?
The anti-theist would have to account for the two questions raised above for the question to even be answerable.

But there's a fatal flaw in the argument: if God deliberately creates a "possible world" in order to elicit a certain action that he wants from people (such as Adam/Eve not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) then in reality such creatures don't really have "free choice" at all.
This is only true under libertarianism, which has not been further supported by any evidence or reason. You would have to show that is what free will means in order for this to hold any weight. As it is now you're simply assuming.

Therefore, God can't create such a world because any creatures that he created would only have the illusion of free choice!
Now, you would have to tread carefully here as saying God cannot do something may negate omnipotence. Are you saying God logically cannot create a state of affairs in which He is a factor of human free will? Or are you saying God does not do such? Answering the former will get you a negation of omnipotence. Answering the other will save you from that, though it is still incorrect (two others have even pointed this out).

I propose that God does exactly that: human free choice is completely independent of God, which is the way it has to be for anyone to really have free choice.
You can propose that but so far you have not presented reason to warrant that it is true. In fact there is only evidence against libertarianism. The Bible makes clear God is a factor of human free will. God chooses us, and not the converse.

Ephesians 1:4-5 - Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Romans 8:29 - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers

John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

If human free choice is completely independent of God, then there is no such thing as a "possible worlds hypothesis."
Human choice is not completely independent of God. The reason the PW argument is wrong being free will is independent of God is faulty, and thus cannot be used. I wouldn't even mention a concept of free will unless necessary, instead I would challenge the coherence of the PW situation by asking the anti-theist the two questions and trying to criticize from there.
 
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SkyWriting

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You're correct, predestination is in Scripture. The question is, is it predestination in the sense that God literally chooses who will obey/disobey or is it predestination in the sense that God simply foreknows who will obey his commands and who won't?

See, with humans, we have an either/or sense of logic even though scripture is clear that:

26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
 
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SkyWriting

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You may ask an atheist: are you a totally free man? Atheist knows no God. So it is possible that the answer is a Yes. If so, you have an example of true freedom.

16 And my inmost being will rejoice When your lips speak what is right.
17 Do not let your heart envy sinners...
 
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SkyWriting

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So when God said to Eve...

Wait...?

What...?

She had NO clothes on?

The issue was they they were not aware of themselves at all.
You may have a pet that remains unaware that they wear no clothes.
 
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juvenissun

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So, if one has enough freedom, why would he complain that no one is absolutely free?

Oh, yes, may be you are not free from unhappy. That is a good complaint. Should we be emotionless and thus become free from emotion? Or, you are free from emotion by being sad when you like to be sad and being happy when you like to be happy? God tells us that we will not be sad anymore in the Heaven. Is so, are we going to be more free or be less free?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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A prominent anti-theistic philosophy is to suggest that God could have somehow created creatures in such a fashion that they would "freely choose" to obey his commands and thus not "freely choose" evil.
I'm curious to know what kind of anti-theist has a philosophy that involves God doing anything at all...

That apart, if he really wanted A & E not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but was reluctant to interfere with their free choice, he could simply have made the fruit inaccessible or uneatable; some things are simply not available choices (e.g. flying unassisted, changing sex on a whim, turning rocks into pizza, etc). I also wonder what he'd have done if Adam, ignorant of good and evil, had killed Eve for her transgression (worse things happen in the OT), then killed himself in a fit of remorse... perhaps he'd create Adam and Eve version 2 ? He could, presumably, also interfere with consequences, so that despite man's free choices, nothing bad would ever come of them. The sky's the limit for an omnipotent omniscience.

Another thing that puzzles me is that, if Satan - as was said earlier - was 'perfect', how could he rebel? Is this some kind of perfection that includes imperfection?

Just musin' ;)
 
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juvenissun

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Another thing that puzzles me is that, if Satan - as was said earlier - was 'perfect', how could he rebel? Is this some kind of perfection that includes imperfection?

Just musin' ;)

Satan did not rebel as the way we understand this word. He will never say no to God as many of us do. And satan will never try to fight God.

Satan wants to do things only God can do. As perfect and as powerful as he is, I think this desire is quite natural if satan has free will.
 
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mmksparbud

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Satan did not rebel as the way we understand this word. He will never say no to God as many of us do. And satan will never try to fight God.

Satan wants to do things only God can do. As perfect and as powerful as he is, I think this desire is quite natural if satan has free will.

Satan will never try to fight God??---He fought a war with Him!!! Her totally rebelled, and got 1/3 of Gods angels on his side--He was perfect until he, of his own choice, began to think of himself--his own beauty, his own abilities, he dwelt on himself and let go of God. He does only what God allows because he has no other choice. He does not have the power to override what God commands. That is as far as his freedom goes---otherwise, there would be not one single human left alive, or anyone else who disagreed with him. God has allowed him to use only so much power that the universe may see him for what he is, but not enough to wipe out all that God has made.
 
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juvenissun

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Satan will never try to fight God??---He fought a war with Him!!! Her totally rebelled, and got 1/3 of Gods angels on his side--

No, satan has not fought God until he was expelled from the Heaven.
Even after he was expelled, he is still not fighting God directly. He can not.
An angel "catches" satan at the end.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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...He does only what God allows because he has no other choice. He does not have the power to override what God commands. That is as far as his freedom goes...
So not only is there fundamental disagreement on whether Satan rebelled or fought God, but also about the constraints on his free will...
 
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