LDS possible sources for BOM avilable to JS

Ran77 said:

What I find interesting, is that the writing style is so complex that it precludes anyone other than a masterful author from being the sole person responsible for writing the content and messages within its pages. Definitely, not the work of someone with a third grade education.

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run on sentences is not complex

Ran77 said:

What I find interesting, is that the writing style is so complex that it precludes anyone other than a masterful author from being the sole person responsible for writing the content and messages within its pages. Definitely, not the work of someone with a third grade education.

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"
Since its first publication in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been mocked for what seems to be occasionally poor English and bad grammar. In its original version, for instance, Mosiah 10:15 spoke of people who “had arriven to the promised land”; “they was yet wroth,” reported 1 Nephi 4:4; “I have wrote this epistle,” said Giddianhi at 3 Nephi 3:5; “I was a going thither,” Amulek recalled at Alma 10:8; the original version of Helaman 7:8 and 13:37 referred to events “in them days”; and “they done all these things,” reported Ether 9:29.

Virtually all, if not all, of these apparent errors have since been corrected. Indeed, many were corrected by Joseph Smith in the 1837 edition of the Book of Mormon. But they can’t be altogether hidden, and critics have made light of them for nearly two centuries. A genuinely inspired text, those detractors sniff, would have used correct grammar."
Editing out the 'bad grammar' in the Book of Mormon

"MISSPELLED WORDS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON The original edition of the Book of Mormon contained dozens of misspelled words, documenting that the writer had a very poor knowledge of the English language. How could these misspelled words get into a translation allegedly being overseen by the “power of God”? Just a few such errors are listed below. • “journied” (for journeyed; 1 Nephi 4:38; 5:6; 7:6; 18:25; 2 Nephi 5:7; Omni 1:16) • “bellowses” (for bellows; 1 Nephi 17:11) • “feading” (for feeding; Enos 1:20) • “sayeth” (for saith; Mosiah 12:21) • “bablings” (for babblings; Alma 1:32) • “tempels” (for temples; Alma 16:13) • “yars” (for years; Alma 19:16) • “phrensied” (for frenzied; Alma 30:16) • “eigth” (for eighth; Alma 53:23) • “adhear” (for adhere; Alma 60:34) • “eatheth” (for eateth; 3 Nephi 20:8) • “rereward” (for rearward; 3 Nephi 20:42; 21:29)
...
ERRORS IN GRAMMAR There are literally thousands of grammatical errors in the original edition of the Book of Mormon— errors that gradually have been changed in later editions. These take the form of such things as double negatives, incorrect adverbs and adjectives, and incorrect tenses. Note the following examples. • “Behold, for none of these I cannot hope” (2 Nephi 33:9). • “And Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could not understand them” (Omni 1:17). • “And now behold the Lamanites could not retreat neither way” (Helaman 1:31). • “Yea, if my days could have been in them days” (Helaman 7:8). • “And it came to pass that there was certain men passing by” (Helaman 7:11). • “That all might see the writing which he had wrote” (Alma 46:19). • “I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord gave these commandments” (Alma 13:1). [still exists in recent editions] • “They did not fight against God no more” (Alma 23:7).
“I have wrote to them” (3 Nephi 26:8). • “I were about to write to them” (3 Nephi 26:11). • “...the gates of hell is...” (3 Nephi 18:13). • “...the multitude had all eat” (3 Nephi 20:9). • “I Moroni have written the words which was commanded” (Ether 5:1). • “The law had ought to be done away” (2 Nephi 25:27). • “...which was wrote upon the plates...” (Alma 44:24). • “Adam and Eve, which was our first parents...,” (1 Nephi 5:11). • “...who was the most foremost among them” (Alma 32:5). • “...that there might not be no more sorrow” (Alma 29:2).
REDUNDANT PHRASES AND WORDS
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/book-of-mormon.pdf




Bad Grammar in the Book of Mormon Found in Early English Bibles

Peter1000 said:

How is it that a person could do all these things in the name of Jesus Christ, but Jesus does not recongnize that person, and asks them to depart?

The answer is found in Matthew:
Matthew 16:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

If a person does not have the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the power of binding and loosing, their endeavors on earth will not be bound or loosed in heaven. IOW their works will not be recongized in heaven and by Jesus.

Hence, Jesus will say to them: You have done all these great works in my name, but I did not give you the power or authority to do these things, therefore I do not recongize your works, and I do not know you, depart from me.

A person cannot just wake up one morning and say: I am going to preach the gospel, and start baptizing people in the name of Jesus Christ.
Heaven will not recog nize those baptisms and Jesus will not recognize this person, unless he goes through his recognized lines of authority.

Which brings us to: what church has the recognized power and authority, that when their men baptize (bind a person to Jesus), this baptism is bound (recognized) in heaven. And when their men excomunicate (loose a person from Jesus), this excomunication is bound (recognized) in heaven.

Which church has the true priesthood (keys of the kingdom), which is the power and authority to act for Jesus Christ on the earth today? Most churches (especially protestant, and born again, and evangelical churches) do not even see a need to have the priesthood of Jesus.

The only church that talks about the keys of the kingdom of heaven and the priesthood of Jesus is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is only the Church of Jesus Christ that declares these things. It is only the Church of Jesus Christ that ordaines men with the power and the authority to actually act in the authorized name of Jesus Christ. We will not be asked to depart from him. We have the same power and authority that Jesus gave Peter in the first century, which Peter used to grow and administer the true church of Jesus.

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Based on the last part of Matthew 25, Eph 2:10 and James 2, I think true faith results in good works. Also, the concept of Jesus being our Vine, Fruit of the Spirit, and II Peter 1 too.

Correc

Ran77 said:

And? Since I didn't state anything even remotely similar to this partial sentiment, it doesn't seem to apply to me, or my comments.

However, I think I will take a moment to point out an interesting aspect of your post. I normally do not correct grammar on the forums, but "run on sentences ARE not complex." I mention this only because it seems silly to give any credence to a post about language that is itself flawed. The skill to recognize complex forms and patterns in writing is based on the ability to correctly use the language.

I'm sure you have an admirable level of expertise with the language (not sarcasm) even though the post itself is grammatically flawed. I'm only suggesting that your comments about language will be more effective if you take greater care with what you write.

Just saying.

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Correct friend, I was referring the book of Mormon. I am too tired to remember if the statement about run on referring to other LDS Scriptures.

Ran77 said:

The presence of run-on sentences in the Book of Mormon does not impact my original statement.

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What was that statement and why does it not matter? I would expect God in translating to have perfect grammar. An uneducated carbon life form would be the true source of very poor grammar.

This problem is confronted by third grade and usually corrected by fifth grade in most countries. It is sad, that today even Freshmen in College in the USA still has this problem. In most Countries, the problem is corrected early on.

Is God perfect? Yep
Is God all knowing? Yep

If God translated the gold plates, the grammar would be perfect.

Ran77 said:

Did you compose any part of this post? Or is it just one massive cut and paste job?

I participate in a debate forum to discuss matters with others. If the person who wrote the comments you posted wants to come here and discuss the topic with me, then I am more than happy to oblige. I don't rely on anyone else to write my arguments for me. I am fully capable of forming my own thoughts and offering them on this forum. And I only debate topics on this forum with those who do the same.

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If someone says something better than we can there is no problem using their words. Why reinvent the wheel?

Ran77 said:

And? Since I didn't state anything even remotely similar to this partial sentiment, it doesn't seem to apply to me, or my comments.

However, I think I will take a moment to point out an interesting aspect of your post. I normally do not correct grammar on the forums, but "run on sentences ARE not complex." I mention this only because it seems silly to give any credence to a post about language that is itself flawed. The skill to recognize complex forms and patterns in writing is based on the ability to correctly use the language.

I'm sure you have an admirable level of expertise with the language (not sarcasm) even though the post itself is grammatically flawed. I'm only suggesting that your comments about language will be more effective if you take greater care with what you write.

Just saying.

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I am dealing with the virus again. So what!!! I never claimed to be perfect. But, God is perfect therefore anything that claims to be from him directly that has bad grammar is proof that whatever that was is not from Him.

"
Since its first publication in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been mocked for what seems to be occasionally poor English and bad grammar. In its original version, for instance, Mosiah 10:15 spoke of people who “had arriven to the promised land”; “they was yet wroth,” reported 1 Nephi 4:4; “I have wrote this epistle,” said Giddianhi at 3 Nephi 3:5; “I was a going thither,” Amulek recalled at Alma 10:8; the original version of Helaman 7:8 and 13:37 referred to events “in them days”; and “they done all these things,” reported Ether 9:29.

Virtually all, if not all, of these apparent errors have since been corrected. Indeed, many were corrected by Joseph Smith in the 1837 edition of the Book of Mormon. But they can’t be altogether hidden, and critics have made light of them for nearly two centuries. A genuinely inspired text, those detractors sniff, would have used correct grammar."
Editing out the 'bad grammar' in the Book of Mormon

"MISSPELLED WORDS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON The original edition of the Book of Mormon contained dozens of misspelled words, documenting that the writer had a very poor knowledge of the English language. How could these misspelled words get into a translation allegedly being overseen by the “power of God”? Just a few such errors are listed below. • “journied” (for journeyed; 1 Nephi 4:38; 5:6; 7:6; 18:25; 2 Nephi 5:7; Omni 1:16) • “bellowses” (for bellows; 1 Nephi 17:11) • “feading” (for feeding; Enos 1:20) • “sayeth” (for saith; Mosiah 12:21) • “bablings” (for babblings; Alma 1:32) • “tempels” (for temples; Alma 16:13) • “yars” (for years; Alma 19:16) • “phrensied” (for frenzied; Alma 30:16) • “eigth” (for eighth; Alma 53:23) • “adhear” (for adhere; Alma 60:34) • “eatheth” (for eateth; 3 Nephi 20:8) • “rereward” (for rearward; 3 Nephi 20:42; 21:29)
...
ERRORS IN GRAMMAR There are literally thousands of grammatical errors in the original edition of the Book of Mormon— errors that gradually have been changed in later editions. These take the form of such things as double negatives, incorrect adverbs and adjectives, and incorrect tenses. Note the following examples. • “Behold, for none of these I cannot hope” (2 Nephi 33:9). • “And Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could not understand them” (Omni 1:17). • “And now behold the Lamanites could not retreat neither way” (Helaman 1:31). • “Yea, if my days could have been in them days” (Helaman 7:8). • “And it came to pass that there was certain men passing by” (Helaman 7:11). • “That all might see the writing which he had wrote” (Alma 46:19). • “I would cite your minds forward to the time when the Lord gave these commandments” (Alma 13:1). [still exists in recent editions] • “They did not fight against God no more” (Alma 23:7).
“I have wrote to them” (3 Nephi 26:8). • “I were about to write to them” (3 Nephi 26:11). • “...the gates of hell is...” (3 Nephi 18:13). • “...the multitude had all eat” (3 Nephi 20:9). • “I Moroni have written the words which was commanded” (Ether 5:1). • “The law had ought to be done away” (2 Nephi 25:27). • “...which was wrote upon the plates...” (Alma 44:24). • “Adam and Eve, which was our first parents...,” (1 Nephi 5:11). • “...who was the most foremost among them” (Alma 32:5). • “...that there might not be no more sorrow” (Alma 29:2).
REDUNDANT PHRASES AND WORDS
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/book-of-mormon.pdf




Bad Grammar in the Book of Mormon Found in Early English Bibles

Peter1000 said:

Usually, a con of this magnitude falls apart if all parties don't get rich. Which none did after many years.

The normal con would be up if one of the conmen threw out the other cons involved and divested their interest all to himself. The main men were JS, Oliver Cowdry, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris. JS eventually excommunicated the other 3 from the church. This action, if it were a con, would have unravelled the con as the other men would have given up and reported the con in a book or newpaper or any number of ways. But none of them did. In fact to their dying days, they would not recant the supposed con. To their dying days they testify that they saw and hefted the golden plates, shown them by an angel of God, and would not give up JS to the wolves. It was not a con. These men were not conmen.

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It was not a financial con, it was a religious con.

Ran77 said:

This is my original statement, "What I find interesting, is that the writing style is so complex that it precludes anyone other than a masterful author from being the sole person responsible for writing the content and messages within its pages. Definitely, not the work of someone with a third grade education."

Why does it not matter if there are run-on sentences? For several reasons. The first being that I didn't comment on grammar. I commented on content and the messages the Book of Mormon contains. Style and grammar are not the same thing. In order for you to offer an argument that would matter, you would have to address the way the message were presented and the general style of the writing. But you didn't.

A second reason is that run-on sentences would actually support the notion of a complex writing style.

Third, to whatever extent that your grammar comment is valid, it would provide an even greater argument to support the view that Joseph Smith was not the author of the Book of Mormon, only the imperfect translator. If your grammar comments are valid, then how could a person who makes so many language mistakes then go on to write a book that is stylistically complex and filled with message of great depth? Those two point contradict one another in your argument. An oxymoron, so to speak.


By the way, the perfection argument is a foolish argument. One that is easily broken.

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Ran it is funny you think the writing in complex. This is an example of how simplistic it is.

CHAPTER 2

The Jaredites prepare for their journey to a promised land—It is a choice land whereon men must serve Christ or be swept off—The Lord talks to the brother of Jared for three hours—The Jaredites build barges—The Lord asks the brother of Jared to propose how the barges will be lighted.

1 And it came to pass that Jared and his brother, and their families, and also the afriends of Jared and his brother and their families, went down into the valley which was northward, (and the name of the valley was bNimrod, being called after the mighty hunter) with their cflocks which they had gathered together, male and female, of every kind.

2 And they did also lay snares and catch afowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters.

3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them aswarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, bseeds of every kind.

4 And it came to pass that when they had come down into the valley of Nimrod the Lord came down and talked with the brother of Jared; and he was in a acloud, and the brother of Jared saw him not.

5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should ago forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been. And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a bcloud, and gave cdirections whither they should travel.

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did abuild bbarges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the aland of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had bpreserved for a righteous people.

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should aserve him, the true and only God, or they should be bswept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be aswept off when the fulness of his bwrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are cripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be aswept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the bfulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are cswept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye aGentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the bwrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be afree from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but bserve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

13 And now I proceed with my record; for behold, it came to pass that the Lord did bring Jared and his brethren forth even to that great sea which divideth the lands. And as they came to the sea they pitched their tents; and they called the name of the place aMoriancumer; and they dwelt in btents, and dwelt in tents upon the seashore for the space of four years.

14 And it came to pass at the end of four years that the Lord came again unto the brother of Jared, and stood in a cloud and atalked with him. And for the space of three hours did the Lord talk with the brother of Jared, and bchastened him because he remembered not to ccall upon the name of the Lord.

15 And the brother of Jared repented of the evil which he had done, and did call upon the name of the Lord for his brethren who were with him. And the Lord said unto him: I will forgive thee and thy brethren of their sins; but thou shalt not sin any more, for ye shall remember that my aSpirit will not always bstrive with man; wherefore, if ye will sin until ye are fully ripe ye shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And these are my cthoughts upon the land which I shall give you for your inheritance; for it shall be a land dchoice above all other lands.

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of abarges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the binstructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.

17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly atight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.

18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.

21 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.

22 And he cried again unto the Lord saying: O Lord, behold I have done even as thou hast commanded me; and I have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness?

23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go by the light of fire.

24 For behold, ye shall be as a awhale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the bwinds have gone forth cout of my mouth, and also the drains and the floods have I sent forth.

25 And behold, I prepare you against these things; for ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come. Therefore what will ye that I should prepare for you that ye may have light when ye are swallowed up in the depths of the sea?