Possible Lutheran Convert Questions

Markie Boy

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I am currently without a church, and seeking. Lutheran thought seems very Biblical and historical so far. More so than the modern churches that seems to promote Once Saved Always Saved, and the Left Behind type rapture.

But there are a few things I'm not sold on yet.

1. Being called "Lutheran" - we are told we are not "of" anyone but Christ, so not a fan of any name but Christian, which is what the book of Acts called believers.

2. Infant Baptism - I am not opposed, but not sold either. It's clear believer's baptism was done and is proper. I am just not sure either way.

3. Can anyone pray over the communion elements? If Lutheranism denies apostolic succession of Catholicism (which I do too), can any person pray over communion for the Real Presence?

Working on things - so thank you.
 

Daniel9v9

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I am currently without a church, and seeking. Lutheran thought seems very Biblical and historical so far. More so than the modern churches that seems to promote Once Saved Always Saved, and the Left Behind type rapture.

But there are a few things I'm not sold on yet.

1. Being called "Lutheran" - we are told we are not "of" anyone but Christ, so not a fan of any name but Christian, which is what the book of Acts called believers.

2. Infant Baptism - I am not opposed, but not sold either. It's clear believer's baptism was done and is proper. I am just not sure either way.

3. Can anyone pray over the communion elements? If Lutheranism denies apostolic succession of Catholicism (which I do too), can any person pray over communion for the Real Presence?

Working on things - so thank you.

Hey, as one who came out of Pentecostalism/non-denominationalism, I know the feeling! There's a lot here, but I'll try and be brief!

1. Every denomination has a theological framework. And more often than not, the name of a church body does not accurately reflect its theology. This is also true for sects outside the church, and to illustrate this, think of the Mormon religion, which has its official name as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". So purely by its name, I would be forced to think that Mormons are closer to the Bible than, say, the Anglican Church. But this is of course false and easily discerned when we compare what they believe. The Anglican Church promote Christ as Lord and Saviour and Mormons don't.

Now, what about the Lutheran Church? Does it mean that we follow Luther or that Luther is our Pope? No. The word "Lutheran" is actually derogative in its origin. It was applied to a body of reforming churches by the Roman Catholic Church. This is because, historically speaking, heresies are often named after their leading figure, and in the eyes of Rome, Luther was a heretic, because he rejected the Pope and the Roman Catholic understanding of justification etc. But "Lutheran" is what eventually stuck, and now it's used in a neutral way to express a certain theological system, which can be summarised as that we are saved entirely by grace, by the person and works of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We live in an age where, in a weird way, if a church body is called something akin to "Christian Church" or "Church of Christ" etc, it's probably either going to be loosely Baptist or charismatic, or at worst a cult. Where I live, in Japan, we have a church called "Mustardseed Christian Church". They are Christian, but they are also distinctly Charismatic-Baptist. Which means, if I wanted to be derogatory, I could call them Campbellites, because they have their roots in the American Restoration Movement. Or I can go further back in history and call them Zwinglians, because much of their theological system came out of the writings of Zwingli. So the point here is not to be offensive and dismissive, but to illustrate how every theological framework has a history, and that we should be careful to not be swayed by their name. Especially because in this time, a lot of false and dangerous teaching flies under the banner of "non-denominationalism" or "Christian".

2. If we understand Baptism as a gift from God, then who are we to deny God's gift to children? Is there anything in the following thread (post 9) I can expand upon?
Is infant baptism unbiblical?

3. Yes, it's possible for any person in Christ to administer His body and blood, in the sense that it's not tied up to the doctrine of Apostolic Succession, as you rightly say. But should they? In the New Testament, we do find a distinction being made between a pastoral office and laity. For example, James 3:1: "Not many of you should become teachers ..." or call to mind the qualifications to the pastoral office in 1 Timothy 3, which is again to say that it's an office given to some, not to all. And what are those pastors charged to do? To publically preach the Word of God and to administer His gifts of Baptism and the Eucharist.

Maybe I can add to this one thing: As I used to operate in a loose Arminian framework, I remember it was very difficult for me to understand or appreciate the Eucharist. But the thing that made everything click for me is this:

In the Old Testament, the eating of the lamb was tied to literal deliverance from slavery and was only given the people of God. So it was life or death. In the New Testament, Christ fulfils this, for He is the true Lamb of God. And in the Eucharist, we eat that Lamb. So the Eucharist is the culmination of the old Passover Lamb, which is very central in the OT, but even so, only a type or shadow of what we have now in Christ. So if this meal was to be kept holy then, it's certainly not to be taken lightly now. This is why, as a church (all believers), it is good for us to entrust it to those who are prepared and trained to preach the Word. This is for good order and for the sake of our consciences. So, in a word, the Eucharist, same as Baptism, is a gift. And God can work to deliver that gift through whomever He wants. At the same time, however, it's serious stuff! And so, it's best in the hands of those who are called to the pastoral office. So it's nothing to do with the power or right of the pastor, but everything to do with right teaching, right worship, and clear consciences.

Hope this may be of some help! God bless!
 
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Markie Boy

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This is a really good explanation. I need to read it several times and study the passages that go with it, but there is literally nothing that puts up a red flag for me.

With other faith groups I have been a part of, there was always some teaching that was so directly against scripture it was plain as day, yet they could not see it.

I'll keep chewing on it - thank you!
 
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Markie Boy

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One other question - I was baptized Catholic as an infant. If I join the Lutheran church would they say that was acceptable? Obviously I don't have much confidence in Catholicism or I wouldn't have left, so I don't have a problem either way.

I was raised nominally Catholic, but really came to faith in a Baptist setting. Good preaching, lot's of energy, but I was never moved to get "re-baptized". They insisted on learning Scripture, which I took up, and after some years found Scripture to not fit Baptist tradition very well, so here I am.

A thought I had on infant baptism here - they say infant baptisms have declined a lot over the decades. As that has declined, so has morality, and we have seen the rise in all kinds of other "stuff". Could there be a connection?

I am starting to think the move from Christianity as a family and covenant promise, to a "you do you" individual thing, is showing up in our culture. One could argue there are less baptisms because Christianity is on the decline in the US as well.

Either way, we have less children baptized, and more children having issues it seems.
 
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Tigger45

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One other question - I was baptized Catholic as an infant. If I join the Lutheran church would they say that was acceptable? Obviously I don't have much confidence in Catholicism or I wouldn't have left, so I don't have a problem either way.

I was raised nominally Catholic, but really came to faith in a Baptist setting. Good preaching, lot's of energy, but I was never moved to get "re-baptized". They insisted on learning Scripture, which I took up, and after some years found Scripture to not fit Baptist tradition very well, so here I am.

A thought I had on infant baptism here - they say infant baptisms have declined a lot over the decades. As that has declined, so has morality, and we have seen the rise in all kinds of other "stuff". Could there be a connection?

I am starting to think the move from Christianity as a family and covenant promise, to a "you do you" individual thing, is showing up in our culture. One could argue there are less baptisms because Christianity is on the decline in the US as well.

Either way, we have less children baptized, and more children having issues it seems.
Yes, a Trinitarian baptism (in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit/Ghost) is the proper baptism for Lutheranism. Most Lutheran parishes would also require catechism or confirmation of their particular synod to be granted full membership.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Yes, a Trinitarian baptism (in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit/Ghost) is the proper baptism for Lutheranism. Most Lutheran parishes would also require catechism or confirmation of their particular synod to be granted full membership.
Additional Catechesis in the CC would also go a long ways.
 
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LizaMarie

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I was raised nominally Catholic, but really came to faith in a Baptist setting. Good preaching, lot's of energy, but I was never moved to get "re-baptized". They insisted on learning Scripture, which I took up, and after some years found Scripture to not fit Baptist tradition very well, so here I am.

A thought I had on infant baptism here - they say infant baptisms have declined a lot over the decades. As that has declined, so has morality, and we have seen the rise in all kinds of other "stuff". Could there be a connection?

I am starting to think the move from Christianity as a family and covenant promise, to a "you do you" individual thing, is showing up in our culture. One could argue there are less baptisms because Christianity is on the decline in the US as well.

Either way, we have less children baptized, and more children having issues it seems.
You know, this is very interesting but I have sometimes wondered the exact same thing and
if there was a connection. It's interesting to read someone else mention it.
I do believe in infant Baptism, which is why I came back to the Lutheran Church from non-denomationalism. (And for other reasons.)
 
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Markie Boy

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I was wondering if specifically they would insist Catholic infant baptism was acceptable.

They have the paperwork to say it was done - but the church I was baptized at is closed. I guess it was a liberal place, so I don't have a ton of confidence it was even a good, Trinitarian baptism.

Things like that do make a case for believers baptism in a way to me, as you know what you are doing and is being done.
 
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Daniel9v9

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One other question - I was baptized Catholic as an infant. If I join the Lutheran church would they say that was acceptable? Obviously I don't have much confidence in Catholicism or I wouldn't have left, so I don't have a problem either way.

I was raised nominally Catholic, but really came to faith in a Baptist setting. Good preaching, lot's of energy, but I was never moved to get "re-baptized". They insisted on learning Scripture, which I took up, and after some years found Scripture to not fit Baptist tradition very well, so here I am.

A thought I had on infant baptism here - they say infant baptisms have declined a lot over the decades. As that has declined, so has morality, and we have seen the rise in all kinds of other "stuff". Could there be a connection?

I am starting to think the move from Christianity as a family and covenant promise, to a "you do you" individual thing, is showing up in our culture. One could argue there are less baptisms because Christianity is on the decline in the US as well.

Either way, we have less children baptized, and more children having issues it seems.

I was wondering if specifically they would insist Catholic infant baptism was acceptable.

They have the paperwork to say it was done - but the church I was baptized at is closed. I guess it was a liberal place, so I don't have a ton of confidence it was even a good, Trinitarian baptism.

Things like that do make a case for believers baptism in a way to me, as you know what you are doing and is being done.

What @Tigger45 said above is right. When you were baptised in the Roman Catholic Church, you can be confident that you were rightly baptised into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the one true God. So you are baptised by God through His Church (those who believe in Him), and you can be comforted with that His promise is still valid. In His great love for you, He has forgiven you, put His name on you, adopted you, and given you the gift of His Holy Spirit.

Perhaps I can mention that it would be different if you were baptised by the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostal, Christian Scientists, or Unitarian Church, as those are outside the Christian Church in that they deny the triune God. But our Roman Catholic friends, though we reject many of their teachings, we recognise that they are our brothers and sisters in Christ and that they do uphold trinitarian teaching. And even if the church you were baptised in is now closed and if it was liberal, if there is a record of your baptism, I think we can be confident that you are baptised, so there should be no cause for concern.

I also think you make a good observation regarding the decline of baptism and the rise of certain sinful philosophies. That is, though it's a bit more complex than this, the simple fact that God can grant children faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit through Baptism even if the parents are nominal Christians does mean something. Sadly, for the most part, it means that the children will also grow up without the Word sustaining their faith. However, before, children were denied the Word, but now, along with being denied the Word, they are even denied the Lord's gift of Baptism. And where the Holy Spirit doesn't work, other spirits and sinful human nature govern, which gives birth to all kinds of strange and sinful ideas and practices. Even so, we can take comfort in that though the devil, the world, and our flesh rage against God and His children, He promises us that His Church will not be overcome by evil, so God be praised!
 
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ViaCrucis

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I am currently without a church, and seeking. Lutheran thought seems very Biblical and historical so far. More so than the modern churches that seems to promote Once Saved Always Saved, and the Left Behind type rapture.

But there are a few things I'm not sold on yet.

1. Being called "Lutheran" - we are told we are not "of" anyone but Christ, so not a fan of any name but Christian, which is what the book of Acts called believers.

The term "Lutheran" was originally used by opponents of Luther's reform movement. Historically when one identifies a heretical teaching and movement, the founder or most visible proponent of that teaching is considered a "heresiarch" a big fancy word meaning "leader of a heresy". This goes all the way back to the earliest days of Christianity. For example in the Revelation we read of a group called the "Nicolaitans" who get their name from Nicolas, while the Bible itself doesn't tell us much about them or who their founder was, tradition remembers that it was a group founded by a man named Nicolas, in fact it was Nicolas the Deacon mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles who apparently lost his way. This trend continued, for example Valentinianism was a Gnostic heretical sect founded by Gnostic teacher named Valentinus, Sabellianism (also called Modalism) was a heretical teaching that was popularized by a man named Sabellius; the Marcionites another early heretical sect is named after Marcion of Sinope. Arianism - Arius, Nestorianism - Nestorius, etc. So when those Christians in the 16th century who agreed and followed Martin Luther's church reforms were called "Lutherans" it was intended as an insult.

In fact, Luther himself said that he didn't believe any follower of Jesus should bear (his words) "the wretched name of Luther".

Which is why the earliest Lutherans didn't call themselves "Lutherans" they called themselves Christians and to distinguish themselves from Roman falsehood used the term "Evangelical" (German: Evangelische) meaning "pertaining to the Gospel", they saw themselves as Christians who were fighting and defending the integrity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, to this very day, the word used to describe Lutherans is Evangelische. They were the "Evangelical Church", not "the Lutheran Church". But the term "Lutheran" was adopted into English, and so outside of regions with a strong Lutheran presence, such as in England, "Lutheran" is the term that stuck. And so when Lutherans came to North America, this was the name they were known by among the English-speaking population. And Lutherans have come to adopt it for themselves because it makes it a lot easier in conversation.

If we just called ourselves Christians (which we are), that wouldn't necessarily distinguish us from, say, Episcopalian Christians, Baptist Christians, Roman Catholic Christians, etc. Likewise, if we simply described ourselves as Catholic Christians (which we are), many Protestants might simply think we are Roman Catholic (which we are not). And if we simply called ourselves Evangelical Christians (which we are), well the term "Evangelical" in the English-speaking world tends to refer to other religious movements, such as the various Revivalist movements that arose in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries.

So it's not a matter of us identifying ourselves with Martin Luther, but really just boils down to what is practical in the times and places we live.

But if you just want to call us "Christians", I can't imagine any of us would take issue with that. Though I imagine lots of non-Lutherans might.

2. Infant Baptism - I am not opposed, but not sold either. It's clear believer's baptism was done and is proper. I am just not sure either way.

Lots of things can be said, but it can really be boiled down to what the meaning and purpose of Baptism is. If Baptism is the work and power of God--means of grace--through which God is the One who does something for us, then what matters if that we are baptized. "Believer's Baptism", as a concept, requires an assumption that Baptism is about something we do for God, rather than something God does for us. But if God's saving power and grace, if Jesus Christ and His Gospel, are right there with and connected with the water, then whether one is baptized as an infant or as an old man, it still remains God's work, power, and grace--the Gospel remaining the power of God to save all who believe (Romans 1:16), and the power of God's word working and creating faith in us (Ephesians 2:8, Romans 10:17). Because it depends on God, not man.

3. Can anyone pray over the communion elements? If Lutheranism denies apostolic succession of Catholicism (which I do too), can any person pray over communion for the Real Presence?

Working on things - so thank you.

Pastors don't have a special sacerdotal "grace"; but we recognize that from the beginning the Church has, for the sake of good order, entrusted to certain individuals to carry out the ministerial duties of the Church. The Church calls persons to exercise the "Keys of the kingdom", which while the possession of the whole Church, and not to any person or group of persons within the Church, is entrusted to certain ministers (servants) so that preaching of the word is faithful, the administering of the Sacraments is faithful and orderly. It's not about certain people having "power" at the top; but that the Church should be organized and orderly in order that God's word and gifts are faithfully and faithfully presented. In some places, where bishops adopted the reforms, the traditional structures of apostolic succession were retained (such as in the Scandinavian countries), in places where bishops remained loyal to Rome, other forms of church organization were necessitated for practical reasons.

Practicality and pragmaticism are a big part of Lutheranism--it's not about a specific way how things are done, but that they are done in a good, healthy, orderly, and Christian way. If something isn't broken, then it doesn't need fixing; if something needs to be done to ensure good and faithful preaching and teaching, then it needs to be done. There are not always one size fits all solutions in all times and all places, but rather different times and different places may bring their own unique challenges--and what is always of the highest importance is Jesus Christ, His Gospel, and the word of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Makes sense. So - would Lutherans say that Jesus is actually present in Catholic communion? I know they would not agree about the sacrifice part, or transubstantiation - but really present?

There's never been any doubt that when they celebrate the Lord's Supper that it is, truly, the Lord's Supper. While we disagree with elements of Roman Catholic Eucharistic theology, they acknowledge and confess the true body and blood of Jesus. Same with the Orthodox.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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There's never been any doubt that when they celebrate the Lord's Supper that it is, truly, the Lord's Supper. While we disagree with elements of Roman Catholic Eucharistic theology, they acknowledge and confess the true body and blood of Jesus. Same with the Orthodox.

-CryptoLutheran
Makes sense. So - would Lutherans say that Jesus is actually present in Catholic communion? I know they would not agree about the sacrifice part, or transubstantiation - but really present?

Same goes for the Orthodox Communions.
 
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Markie Boy

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Been a while, but as I keep thinking on things. I am certain Transubstantiation is not true - but Lutheranism would say the Catholic communion still has the Real Presence?

And on absolution - Lutheranism still says the pastor holds an office and uses the Keys, like Catholicism?

I guess I am still not clear on the three things that hold me back on Lutheranism:

1. Infant Baptism - It seems like we have two types of baptism here. For an infant grace is given without their consent? But for an adult, there must be consent and desire. In the Didache the instructions for baptism just don't work for an infant.

2. Real Presence

3. Absolution from the pastor

They just make me feel like they legitimize Catholicism - which has more Biblical errors than I can shake a stick at. But I'm still working on things - and trying to stay open to learn.
 
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LizaMarie

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Well, it might help to think of it like this:
Martin Luther did not want to start a new church-he wanted to reform what he thought were corruptions and errors in the Church at the time (indulgences, etc.) So the divine liturgy was kept, and everything that was part of the ancient Church and not contradicted by the Bible. He was tossed out of the RCC but many Lutherans have always thought of themselves as part of the catholic church.
The more radical Reformation followed after Luther which are most other Protestants(excluding Anglicans)
I personally believe that the early church taught infant baptism and the Real presence hence while I was non-denominational for about a decade I finally came back the Lutheran church of my childhood, I think it's the most Biblical and closest to the ancient church in the Protestant denominations.
I have looked at Orthodoxy and the RCC but that's another thread( There are good things- and problems -with both. I get tripped up on justification which is why I'm still Lutheran. )
 
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Been a while, but as I keep thinking on things. I am certain Transubstantiation is not true - but Lutheranism would say the Catholic communion still has the Real Presence?

And on absolution - Lutheranism still says the pastor holds an office and uses the Keys, like Catholicism?

I guess I am still not clear on the three things that hold me back on Lutheranism:

1. Infant Baptism - It seems like we have two types of baptism here. For an infant grace is given without their consent? But for an adult, there must be consent and desire. In the Didache the instructions for baptism just don't work for an infant.

2. Real Presence

3. Absolution from the pastor

They just make me feel like they legitimize Catholicism - which has more Biblical errors than I can shake a stick at. But I'm still working on things - and trying to stay open to learn.

@LizaMarie did a good job above. Being Lutheran isn't about "being Protestant" and "not being Catholic". The Catholic Church is the Catholic Church. It's the Church of Jesus Christ which He founded. The problem wasn't that the Catholic Church in the West in Luther's time was the Catholic Church, but rather that errors and abuses had crept in which needed to be excised, the Church needed a cleansing with the Gospel. That's what Lutheranism is: Biblical, Evangelical, Christ-centered Catholic Christianity.

So the 1,500 years of Christian history that preceded Luther and the Reformation, that's our history as Lutherans. That's the history of our Church, the Christian Church, the Church Catholic. The abuses which crept in, and the errors which promoted those abuses--such as the institution of the papacy, indulgences, the emphasis on human works of piety rather than the gracious works of God in Christ for us, those are what needed to be dealt with.

That which is biblical and Christian, that never needed to be changed--because it's Christian truth, it's God's truth, it's God's word, it's biblical. Christ, indeed, gave keys to His Church to pronounce forgiveness of sins, Christ took bread and wine and declared it to be His body and His blood, Christ commanded His Church to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. That's all from Jesus, not human tradition or reason, these things are the word of God, not the words of men.

So we abide in the word of God, in Jesus Christ; not the opinions of men whether they be peasants, princes, or popes. For Christ alone is Head of the Church, Christ alone is the Foundation and Rock of His Church, and Christ alone holds His whole Church together in Himself.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Markie Boy

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Thank you both - both answers sit pretty good with me.

I have to say the teaching of Apostolic Succession is something that would keep me from either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox, and the Papacy and Transubstantiation as well with Rome. I just don't find them as things I could recon with Scripture or History. Still working on things - but thank you so far.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Thank you both - both answers sit pretty good with me.

I have to say the teaching of Apostolic Succession is something that would keep me from either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox, and the Papacy and Transubstantiation as well with Rome. I just don't find them as things I could recon with Scripture or History. Still working on things - but thank you so far.
Scripture clearly calls the eucharist both "bread and wine" and "body and blood"; that, in itself, shows that transubstantiation is incorrect. Be mindful that the CC does discern Christ's body and blood in the Sacrament. Apostolic Succession is historically cool... if it is correct. Some Lutheran Churches historically have it, some don't. It is a point of history rather than theology. Lutheran Churches in Apostolic Succession can be, and often are, in full altar and pulpit fellowship with Lutheran Churches that do not make that claim. Example: Mission Diocese of Finland and Lutheran Church Canada.

Church polity is rather ambiguous in the Bible; suffice it to say, good leadership is good, the corruption of leadership is bad. The idea of a pope is not bad in and of itself, but the powers that some Catholic Popes have exercised without the authority of Scripture are the root cause of the reasons for the Reformation. Leaders of any kind, ecclesial or temporal that overstep their authority are bad.
 
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Seems we've walked similar roads. I was actually raised first in WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) before my parents got caught up in End Times/Rapture and Pentecostal type stuff that they saw on Trinity Broadcasting Network in the 1990s (among other things, they falsely predicted the end of the world would occur in 2008 because they thought a generation was 60 years, and that Israel's 1948 statehood somehow tied into Bible prophecies, so 1948+60=2008). They placed their own intuitions and emotivism over properly understanding Scripture, sadly, and that had a lingering effect on them and me for years. After a long road from that into agnosticism (early 2000s) and then into non-denominationalism, IFB, and a lot of other stuff in between (2010s), I'm back where I originally was as a child before my parents left it: WELS. Lutherans are usually very solidly Biblical and historical without falling into cultism, politicism, emotivism, and other extremes that can be found too readily in many other denominations.

If I didn't have WELS, the only other one I might consider is the ACNA (Anglican Church of North America), which also has a church in my city. They've had talks with LCMS/Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which I was once a part of). Anglicans are somewhere in between on Real Presence vs. symbolism, from what I understand. They also differ from Lutherans in that they follow apostolic succession, which you mentioned you don't follow, so I presume you've ruled them out. My dad was Episcopalian before he went with my mother's church (WELS), and that was back when the Episcopalians were still theologically moderate, so I guess I've had more of a predisposed pull to Anglicanism as much as Lutheranism at times -- but I'm very happy with my local WELS and hope it stays around.
 
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