possible abuse?

[bliz]

http://www.pureintimacy.org/cs/parents/raising_children/a0000163.cfm

Modesty
Little Johnny grew up with a mom who lacked boundaries. As he became older, she often walked in on him in the bathroom. By the time he was sixteen, Johnny’s mom began to invite him into the bathroom while she sat naked in a tub.
In one way, this reoccurring activity desensitized Johnny. Nakedness became normal and routine. His boundaries for reasonable modesty were damaged. In another way, this activity led to an unhealthy focus on the naked body where he learned to obsess over the opposite sex. In time, this objectification would lead to a lustful objectification of women. Is it any wonder that John became a sex addict? Sadly, John’s story is fairly common. Some parents will cite that their culture is less inhibited, or that nudity in the home is actually healthy. A Biblical worldview, however, directs us to maintain reasonable modesty – even in our families.1

http://www.contemporarypediatrics.com/contpeds/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=147765
I would see this situation as a time to help both parents encourage the children to further develop personal boundaries and respect for each member of the family—and for each parent to do the same. By 5 or 6 years, most children are reluctant to "report" on a parent; asking them to do so shows a lack of respect for them as individuals. The need for such respect extends to activities such as showering together. Most 7- and 8-year-olds are beginning to develop a sense of social modesty and body space. Parents need to encourage siblings to respect this in each other. It's not uncommon for a child to be uncomfortable with bathroom and shower activities in the presence of others but to be afraid to say so.

http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=240&np=296&id=2054

What things are sexual abuse?

• having parts of your body touched in a sexual way.
• being kissed inappropriately which made you feel uncomfortable.
• being told to touch parts of your own body.
• making you touch parts of his or her body.
• being made to watch him/her touch or touch his/her own body in a sexual way.
• being forced to act or model for pornographic purposes.
• being forced to watch pornographic material.
• being watched whilst showering or changing.
• putting objects (including penis and fingers in the anus or mouth).
• making you have sex, or do sexual things with other people.
• making sexual comments and suggestions to you.

http://www.childtrauma.org/ctamaterials/sexual_abuse.asp

There are a number of commonly held misconceptions regarding child sexual abuse in the United States. These include the following: sexual abuse is limited to sexual intercourse between an adult and a child; the perpetrator of the sexual abuse is always a stranger; and rape occurs with adult women, not children. However, these beliefs are false. Sexual abuse involves a range of activities including non-contact and contact offenses (see Table1); stranger abuse comprises only a small percentage of total victimizations; and children are approximately three times more likely than adults to be victims of rape.

Non-Contact

· Photographing the child for sexual purposes

· Showing the child pornographic materials

· Sexualized talk with the child

· Making fun of or ridiculing the child's sexual development, preferences, or organs

· Verbal and emotional abuse of a sexual nature

· Exposing genital area to child for sexual gratification

· "Peeping" in on child while dressing, showering, using the restroom

· Masturbating in front of the child

· Making the child witness others being sexually abused

http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/2002/gardere_excerpt.html

2. Be aware of your own behavior and how it might influence your child's view of sexuality. Showering with a child up to the age of two or three might be okay. However, doing this with a a child who is older can be inappropriate. You just don't want your child thinking it is normal for adults and children to be naked together, especially in intimate situations.

 

[bliz]

AND you have to remember that different cultures have different ideas on things - I dare say in some cultures it's ok for parents to shower with their children - UNLESS we know the FACTS - we are not wise to jump to conclusions

FACT: the step father is showering daily with his 12 year old step-son

FACT: the step-father claims he is dong this to save water

QUESTION: If this is a "cultural thing", why isn't that the reason the step-father gave instead of the water saving rational?

QUESTION: Why not shower with his wife to save water? Does anyone reading this really believe the step-father is doing this to save water?

QUESTION: Who is going to be the one to ascertain the "facts"? The step-fahter? The wife? The cousin? The pastor?

QUESTION: Why are so few of you concerned about the boy? There is a great deal of concern about not waiting to hurt the adults, but only one or two of you are worried about the child.

 

[murron]

Hi there I have a concern and since I know nothing about parenting I thought I would ask some experienced parents? My cousin who I used to be very close to, just moved back a half hour from where I live and we've been catching up. She has a son from a previous marriage and a three year old daughter with her new husband. My cousin is a believer, her husband proffeses to be a believer as well. I spent some time there over the weekend and was kind of disturbed at the way her husband was treating my little cousin (he's twelve). FOr one thing her husband insits that his stepson shower with him every day. He says it is to save on the water bill and sees nothing wrong with it. My cousin (Sara) told him that she thought her son needed privacy. He disagred and that was the end of that. Also he is a firm believer in spanking. He spanks both the twelve year old and the three year old for even the smallest things. He began spanking their toddler as soon as she could walk for the everyday things that babies do. I witnessed one of these "punishments" while I was their. He made the twelve year old take his pants and underpants down and spanked him !! I have a bad feeling about it. My cousin is a dear but is very timid and I think is in denial about her husbands actions. Does this seem strange to you? What would you do?
god bless,
Layla

I suppose any one of those occurrences wouldn't add up to 'the big picture' that has me seeing red flags; but the combination of them concerns me.
If this really is something benign, a call to children's services would determine that. They would also be able to offer assistance if money is so tight that the water bill is that big of an issue.

However, if this is not something benign...you have to consider that people who prey on children tend to be very good at hiding their activities; if you've witnessed (or others have witnessed) these activities, what else could be going on that isn't being witnessed?

I am one of the last people who would make calls to children's services; I have a very strong distrust of them and I've witnessed the kind of damage they can cause. In this case, I would make the call.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

An adult male sharing a shower with a 12 year old child on a daily basis is abuse of the child. I don't need to know anything else going on, and neither you.

BINGO...i couldn't have said it better than she !

A2J, there is NO REASON why, on a daily basis, a man has to shower with his (step)son. There may be an occasional time were it MAY be necessary and there's nothing wrong with that BUT not everyday...good grief man !!

And, if my mom had paddled my bare behind when i was 12 AND in front of other people, i sure would have had major issues with it (not to mention my relatives)


Ray

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

BINGO...i couldn't have said it better than she !

A2J, there is NO REASON why, on a daily basis, a man has to shower with his (step)son. There may be an occasional time were it MAY be necessary and there's nothing wrong with that BUT not everyday...good grief man !!

And, if my mom had paddled my bare behind when i was 12 AND in front of other people, i sure would have had major issues with it (not to mention my relatives)


Ray

So what's your point?

I've never maintained that there was anythin wrong or not wrong wit this. I have stated over an over again that it's worth a closer look as to wether er not there is abuse goin on an th fact that they shower DOES NOT mean it is abuse, simple as that. Again, we do NOT know enough to say that there is abuse an even if there is my point all along has been to involve authorities as a las resort, not th first.

Bliz, as far as you spoutin off all this stuff... th stuff you bolded is NOT happenin, or at least we are not privied to any other information, you quoted these specifically

being watched whilst showering or changing.

· "Peeping" in on child while dressing, showering, using the restroom

We have no knowledge that this person is doin any of what you listed let alone these.

I'm really unclear as to why ppl are havin such a hard time wit this. Le's see if I can put it in a context folks might jes be able to grasp. Even though I've said it several times already.

Talk to th mother, question th boy, voice ones concerns, determin wether a visit from authorities is warrented. This is NOT IMO warrentable of authorities, it IS on th other hand worthy of family members to ask questions.

As far as you bein paddled at 12 an havin problems wit it, all I could say is deal wit it. I have no sympathy for folks who whine an cry because they got their butt busted! In fact I think th world would be alot better off if we spared LESS th rod an didn't spoil th child. Instead of gettin upset at your folks fur sumthin like that, how's bout tryin not to screw up an get in trouble? I believe children should be protected of course but my definition of protection an someone else's must be different. Folks who think any form of physical dicipline is abuse are simply an saddly mistaken. I have a hard time buyin all this time out nonsense when someone has screwd up enough to warrant their butts spanked. There's a reason God gave us paddin on our back sides an I think folks should use it more often.

There is no doubt there are ppl in this world that abuse an violently spank or injure children, yes! Absouletly these folks need to be headed off, I have still seen nothin that would raise red flags that this is abuse, I do however think a closer look should be made into th family and that outside authorities left out until such time as one was confident they needed em. We simply do not see that here IMO.

To say that it is abuse to shower wit ones child seems .... jes stupid! If that's th case, like I said before, what? My dad an brother were abusin me? I was sufferin from some sort of abuse? It's absurd to think that. We have only a tid bit of information from th OP mainly I think because she has limited info. I maintain she should see what else she can find out an make it obvious to th mother that she is concerned about what she observed. To simply call child services is a disasterous move at this point. Does no one understand what they do when they launch an investigation? Do you not see how thins could be destroyed so very quickly because what? You think it's abuse? Who defines abuse? There's of course th extremes an we all know it's abuse, th situations listed in th OP do not fall into that boat in my opinion. They do raise eye brows though. Again, what is so wrong wit havin ones facts straight before takin th plunge, th irreversible plunge, into an offical investigation?!?! Ya'll are talkin bout upsettin an entire family based on "supposed" your "opinion" abuse. One should find out if there was cause before makin th call. I simply do not see this as warrentin a call to CPs er anyone else.

If families took care of themsef's in th first place, as Godly families should... there would be no need for these other services. An I'm not jes referrin to immediate families, if one of your childrens children seemed to be sufferin sumthin, would you not first find out IF sumthin was up? Or would you simply call CPS on them??

 

[Kalista]

Praisehim79 wanted an opinion... not a debate. I think something needs to be done in this issue. This whole thing does not sound good to me. Calling the authorities would help as these people are trained to see whats going on. They might be able to get to the bottom of it easier than the common person. Talking to your preacher about it would be a good idea. They could give you an idea of who to talk to next and where to go.

There is also a child abuse helpline that you could call and ask them questions. They might be able to guide you in the right direction.

1-800-4-A-CHILD

 

[bliz]

Bliz, as far as you spoutin off all this stuff... th stuff you bolded is NOT happenin, or at least we are not privied to any other information, you quoted these specifically:

Originally Posted by: bliz

being watched whilst showering or changing.

· "Peeping" in on child while dressing, showering, using the restroom

We have no knowledge that this person is doin any of what you listed let alone these.

Are you under the impression that the step-father has his eyes closed when he showers with the boy? Perhaps they are showering in the dark. No doubt in an effort to save electricity.

 

[andiesmama]

There is also a child abuse helpline that you could call and ask them questions. They might be able to guide you in the right direction.

1-800-4-A-CHILD

Now there's a good idea! I'm sure you could call that number and ask "hypothetical" questions without naming any names and that could point you in the right direction.

I'm still against calling the authorities right away in this case.

 

[Samuel_Rigby]

We have no knowledge that this person is doin any of what you listed let alone these.

I'm really unclear as to why ppl are havin such a hard time wit this. Le's see if I can put it in a context folks might jes be able to grasp. Even though I've said it several times already.

Talk to th mother, question th boy, voice ones concerns, determin wether a visit from authorities is warrented. This is NOT IMO warrentable of authorities, it IS on th other hand worthy of family members to ask questions

.


I think the proper course of action would be to do as stated in scripture. Approach (alone) the father first and voice your concerns. Ask the boy what his concerns are. Does he care that his step-father showers with him? If not, then I would not be too concerned about the showering thing.

As far as the spanking thing is concerned, 12 is too old for spanking. And add to that the bare skin, then yes I would say there is enough to be concerned about. Approach the father alone, voice your concerns. If he refused to listen, then go to him with a couple of others and all of you voice your concerns. If he still refuses to listen, then it should be taken before the church and possibly the authorities.

By the way, A2J, no offense, but you manner of writing is very difficult to read. I don't mean to be critical, just thought I would let you know. Sorry if I offend you. It is not my intention.

 

[EmSchmem]

AS a formerly abused child I wish someone would have paid more attention to red flags and not been so worried about getting involved. A good friend of mine jsut found out her daughter was being molested. Thank GOD for that person who spoke up the very second she saw a red flag. While I agree that MAYBE the best course of action is not to go right to the authorities, there is NO WAY sleeping dogs should be allowed to lie here. I honestly hope and pray that this situation is being read wrong but I have no hope that it is. I know too much about how abusers work.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

So what's your point?

(snip)

As far as you bein paddled at 12 an havin problems wit it, all I could say is deal wit it. I have no sympathy for folks who whine an cry because they got their butt busted! In fact I think th world would be alot better off if we spared LESS th rod an didn't spoil th child. Instead of gettin upset at your folks fur sumthin like that, how's bout tryin not to screw up an get in trouble? I believe children should be protected of course but my definition of protection an someone else's must be different. Folks who think any form of physical dicipline is abuse are simply an saddly mistaken. I have a hard time buyin all this time out nonsense when someone has screwd up enough to warrant their butts spanked. There's a reason God gave us paddin on our back sides an I think folks should use it more often.

There is no doubt there are ppl in this world that abuse an violently spank or injure children, yes! Absouletly these folks need to be headed off, I have still seen nothin that would raise red flags that this is abuse, I do however think a closer look should be made into th family and that outside authorities left out until such time as one was confident they needed em. We simply do not see that here IMO.

(snip)

My point IS that spanking is not NECESSARILY the issue BUT the fact that the stepfather is 1) bare-bottom spanking AND 2) doing it in the presence of other people. That the boy is 12 years old and getting spanked IMO is not the problem - i agree with you that corporeal punishment is, at times, necessary and that 12 years old is not too old for spanking. The bare-bottom spanking done in the presence of other people is WAY beyond the acceptable line period !!


Ray

 

[bliz]

.
I think the proper course of action would be to do as stated in scripture. Approach (alone) the father first and voice your concerns. Ask the boy what his concerns are. Does he care that his step-father showers with him? If not, then I would not be too concerned about the showering thing.

And what do you expect the 12 year old boy is going to say? He depends upon this man and his mother for everything. I'm sure he wants his mother to be happy, and she chose to marry this guy. If he says "Yeah, this guy is doing things to me." or "I hate to shower with him." what happens then? He may fear the cure may be worse than the disease. At minimum, the cure is a total unknown. What if he makes his Mom mad by saying that he hates the showers. What does he have then? His mother is all he really has... and he fears losing her.

Children who are being abused usually lie and say "no" when they are first questioned. Even when presented with evidence, they will often continue to do so. As bad as their world may be, it's the only one they know. Or they may have been threatened to keep silent. "If you tell I'll...." is a very real threat coming from someone who is already abusing them.

Social workers have been trained in how to ask questions and what questions to ask. It's not a simple matter of gently asking "Does anything funny happen in the showers with your step-dad?"

 

[elizabethevangeline]

My point IS that spanking is not NECESSARILY the issue BUT the fact that the stepfather is 1) bare-bottom spanking AND 2) doing it in the presence of other people. That the boy is 12 years old and getting spanked IMO is not the problem - i agree with you that corporeal punishment is, at times, necessary and that 12 years old is not too old for spanking. The bare-bottom spanking done in the presence of other people is WAY beyond the acceptable line period !!


Ray

I agree...this is just shaming behavior not corrective.

I also think it's important to note that the mother is bothered by the showering situation, she thinks it's inappropriate and her husband is ignoring her request that it stop. That should be enough reason to be concerned.

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

Athanasian Creed I can see your point could debate you over th bare-bottom spankin be over th "acceptable limit" but I do see what you are sayin.

And what do you expect the 12 year old boy is going to say? He depends upon this man and his mother for everything. I'm sure he wants his mother to be happy, and she chose to marry this guy. If he says "Yeah, this guy is doing things to me." or "I hate to shower with him." what happens then? He may fear the cure may be worse than the disease. At minimum, the cure is a total unknown. What if he makes his Mom mad by saying that he hates the showers. What does he have then? His mother is all he really has... and he fears losing her.

Children who are being abused usually lie and say "no" when they are first questioned. Even when presented with evidence, they will often continue to do so. As bad as their world may be, it's the only one they know. Or they may have been threatened to keep silent. "If you tell I'll...." is a very real threat coming from someone who is already abusing them.

Social workers have been trained in how to ask questions and what questions to ask. It's not a simple matter of gently asking "Does anything funny happen in the showers with your step-dad?"

As usual I pretty much disagree wit you completely. I wish I could make it more plain or elate my words a bit better. What you are sayin is to involve authorities immediately an let them handle it. Fine I could give you that if there was more evidence to support a claim of abuse, I simply maintain there isn't enough as of yet an think th family should try to uncover what they can before involvin authorities. Why do I think this? This is what I cain't seem to get folks to understand. Le's spose worst case scenario, th step-father is abusin th ever livin snot outta this boy, th mother "thinks" er even "knows" sumthins up an is in th same boat as th OP, so what happens? You call CPS on em an disrupt th entire family, damagin everone involved, because there is abuse goin on so CPS hauls th kids away from th step-father, they haul em away from th mother, they get shoved into a disaster of an over worked system that has a large % rate of false claims an now how much better of is everone?

Now then flip th other way, spose nothins goin on, spose everthin in that family is fine, even wit us hearin a slight an IMO weak claim that th mother thought th boy needs privacy in shower. CPS comes runnin into th mix, they "decide" that there is abuse an th same thin happens agin, th children are ripped from thier parents, th parents are sittin there wit their thumbs shoved up their backsides cause they hadn't seen sumthin like this commin an what? Still takes a year er whatever to sort everthin out. It's silly IMO.

Is it not prudent, nay Wise to FIRST have your facts straight before takin th leap into an irreversible process that will take years to sort out.

Sure a kid might lie bout abuse, could one not discern that? Sure social workers are "trained" to recongize signs... what a load! I hear thins all th time of inadequately trained social workers, you can not rely on minum waged employees to decide th fate of ones family, that's jes askin fur trouble! Most case workers are jes that, they work th start of th case an pass it on to a higher up who takes thins from there, an by your own admission you call this abuse. So I ask you for th thrid time, did my dad an brother abuse me because we showered togeather? If you use your same arguement then you would have to say yes an I should have been ripped away from my family an my brother an dad sent to jail.

I have never said authorities should be left out, what I have said over an over again is that one should be weary, one should ask questions, one should try to hep th family before they got thrusted into th middle of an offical investigation. Someone here at one point, I cain't recall who, may have been Bliz, said that isn't it better to call an find out it was in error later. I whole heartedly disagree wit that in this. To jump th gun an make a call like this is turnin a family up side down that MAY or MAY NOT be abusin their kid. We simply can not make a leap in judgement like that, it would be foolish.


Rigby470 no offense taken, if'n you think you've got a hard time, think how much worse it is for my wife LOL used to drive er nuts, she even asked me to hand er a dictionary of my language once hehe. I type jes like I think/talk an I do it so fast I often leave thins off, got a question jes ask

 

[praisehim79]

hi yall I apologize I did not mean to cause trouble, I honestly wasn't sure what to do and needed perspective... anyways I meant to post but I couldnt get on the website yesterday. Myself and my sister and her husband as well as a deacon in my cousin's church met with my cousin and her husband. Lots of concerns were brought up like the ones I mentioned in my post. Her husband was angry and denied everything and said it was no one's business. I thought for sure we would get nowhere, but appernetly something happened over the weekend, I am not sure what, because both children are now staying with my aunt , thank god!!!!! My cousin will not say anything about it excpet that she knows her kids are safe there. I encouraged her to stay with her mom for now too because her kids need her but she says her place is with her husband. But I am so gratful that the kids are in a safe place and will be recieving counseling as well! thanks for everyone who prayed for my little cousins !!
god bless.,
layla

 

[Addicted2~Jesus]

I think ya'll handled it exceptionly well, ya'll confronted th situation witout havin to use outsiders, have th children safe an now if thins need changin er hep th first brick of th foundation has been laid.

I'm so glad that thins have progressed this way, I agree your cousin needs to be wit her children, but also wit er husband. She git's split duty Isn't that jes how it always goes wit gals?? seems like gals always manage to get th run off from everone hehe.

We'll keep you an them in prayer, let us know how thins go, this is encouragin. Even wit th step-father gittin bent out of shape, that sorta thin is to be expected anyways. No one likes to be called down let alone on their own turf as it were.

 

[shazabella]

Yay for God intervening and they will be in my prayers

- Shaz

 

[skier_lacey12]

I know im not an adult or parent but i have been in an abuse situation and this seems way to far...this kid is 12, almost a teenager his punishment should Not be a spanking, especially bare bottom...and if i understand correctly the guy who does this is not a biological father...if that is right then he barely has right to do that. Also just advice...if you are trying to decide wether to spill everything to a detective or just your cousin, it never hurts to say something if your concerned. If you wait it might only get worse. And personally i wouldn't even take a shower with my own mother. I think this should be told to someone!

 

[Zoomer]

The showering together is enough to send warning bells off in my head. Spanking in itself is not always abuse but if he is spanking for minor things such as spill milked then it is an issue. Also if he is spanking bare bottom, that's wrong. I also believe that 12 is too old to spank. I would keep an eye out and make notes of what is going on.

 

[skier_lacey12]

I am so happy that this worked out good...the Lord was watching over them. Thanks for sharing your concern and the kids will still be prayed for here.