Pornography doesn’t exploit.

[MrLogic]

One admits a deep lack of knowledge on the subject yet is comfortable saying my interpretation is wrong-another just says what iam saying is laughable. There are plenty of professional sources out there explaining the harms of porn so if people want to find out they can.

You know what's really ironic? They have actually noticed that the easiness with which a country gets porn has a inverse relationship with the rate of sex crimes in said country. Meaning, more porn, less sex crime. I know it sounds crazy, but it is true.

A case study: Japan
Milton Diamond and Ayako Uchiyama write in "Pornography, Rape and Sex Crimes in Japan" (International Journal of Law and Psychiatry 22(1): 1-22. 1999):[18]
Our findings regarding sex crimes, murder and assault are in keeping with what is also known about general crime rates in Japan regarding burglary, theft and such. Japan has the lowest number of reported rape cases and the highest percentage of arrests and convictions in reported cases of any developed nation. Indeed, Japan is known as one of the safest developed countries for women in the world (Clifford, 1980). (...) Despite the absence of evidence, the myth persists that an abundance of sexually explicit material invariably leads to an abundance of sexual activity and eventually rape (e.g., Liebert, Neale, & Davison, 1973). Indeed, the data we report and review suggest the opposite. Christensen (1990) argues that to prove that available pornography leads to sex crimes one must at least find a positive temporal correlation between the two. The absence of any positive correlation in our findings, and from results elsewhere, between an increase in available pornography and the incidence of rape or other sex crime, is prima facie evidence that no link exists. But objectivity requires that an additional question be asked: "Does pornography use and availability prevent or reduce sex crime?" Both questions lead to hypotheses that have, over prolonged periods, been tested in Denmark, Sweden, Germany and now in Japan. Indeed, it appears from our data from Japan, as it was evident to Kutchinsky (1994), from research in Europe, that a large increase in available sexually explicit materials, over many years, has not been correlated with an increase in rape or other sexual crimes. Instead, in Japan a marked decrease in sexual crimes has occurred.

And this doesn't happen only in Japan. In ancient China, porn was very, very open to everyone. And the rape crimes were very very low. (I just saw it in History Channel's "The History of Sex")

And this all makes sense. If men have a alternative and legal way of getting rid of their desire, then they are less likely to do something illegal to get rid of said desire.

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

I fail to see how the statement implies the first.

I fail to see how you can't possibly comprehend that it might be implied. I personally think that if you're saying people are "poor" (read: pitiful) and under illusions (read: deluded), then you are implying that those pitiful, deluded beliefs are somehow inferior in concept to the reality.

The only thing one might conclude is that he is not looking for love at that particular point and in that particular activity.
When I am eating a cheese sandwich I am not looking for love in this particular activity either. Doesn´t mean I am not looking for love, though.

That's pretty obvious, but then again, that's not what we were discussing. You were disputing my analogy in relation to that particular example of a woman in a assault filmed for porn.

Doesn´t follow.

Just because you don't follow, doesn't mean my statements don't.

But face it, people act in or look at porn cos they like it.

Yep, this isn't being disputed. I was simply asking if there's something wrong with assuming that women aren't after that sort of thing, knowing it goes on does not necessarily imply that all women are after it, or that all women are against being viewed as "innocent angels," or wouldn't want to fulfill that description.

 

[k]

Lynden, i never claimed one needed to be an expert. For one to not know an obvious piece part of a subject makes it necessarily question why any opinion is formed at all. I have studied feminism for a few years so i at least have a goo idea what iam talking about. Would you like to see my college transcripts or can we focus on the issue?

 

[Mling]

I fail to see how you can't possibly comprehend that it might be implied. I personally think that if you're saying people are "poor" (read: pitiful) and under illusions (read: deluded), then you are implying that those pitiful, deluded beliefs are somehow inferior in concept to the reality.

Really? I think the simple state of being deluded is "pitiful" or "poor" in and of itself, regardless of how the illusion weighs against the reality. If somebody believes they are a king, or a genius, when they are not, aren't they treated with a degree of pity simply for the fact that they cannot see reality, even though most would consider actually being a king or genius to be superior to being Joe Schmo?

And the problem with the delusion that women are innocent little angels is not that being such is bad, but that being such would be so impossibly perfect that it makes being a real human inherently bad. If a person is expected to never have sexual fantasies, even (heaven forbid) rough sexual fantasies, then their experiencing such entirely normal things is considered pathological. If the assumption is that a real women never desire such things, or experience them voluntarily, than there is something horribly, dreadfully wrong with the women who do. Which is, of course, most every woman.

It is not the delusion itself which is wrong, it is the false expectation it creates, and the simple fact that it is, no matter how beautiful, still a delusion.

 

[Athene]

Hehe! You're shattering the poor illusions that conservatives have that women are innocent angels who would never, ever desire such a thing...

To my cynical feminist anti-pornographic mind I find this statement quite sympomatic of the warped view of women presented by pornography. No there aren't many women who would desire such a thing innocent or not. It's not sexually empowering for a woman to have sex with lots of different men at the same time. A woman who allows herself to be used in this way is to pitied. I'm not a conservative either.

I also disagree with an earlier comment you made about porn stars exhibiting raw female sexual power or something along those lines. Porn stars have to keep their appearence in line with some male dictated standard of beauty, having big fake breasts isn't enough, they even have to go in for vaginal plastic surgery to get that perfect looking vagina. What is so powerful about a woman who has to undergo more and more drastic surgery purely so that a man can get a bigger thrill out of looking at her body?

 

[Eudaimonist]

What is so powerful about a woman who has to undergo more and more drastic surgery purely so that a man can get a bigger thrill out of looking at her body?

They do this why...? Because they are in the business to make money, not because men have power over them. It's all part of business. Unless you want to argue that businesses are victimized by their customers? That would surely tip Marx on his head.

Whether women resort to surgery, makeup, clothes, or natural good looks, they can still have great power over men with their sexuality.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

And the problem with the delusion that women are innocent little angels is not that being such is bad, but that being such would be so impossibly perfect that it makes being a real human inherently bad. If a person is expected to never have sexual fantasies, even (heaven forbid) rough sexual fantasies, then their experiencing such entirely normal things is considered pathological. If the assumption is that a real women never desire such things, or experience them voluntarily, than there is something horribly, dreadfully wrong with the women who do. Which is, of course, most every woman.

It is not the delusion itself which is wrong, it is the false expectation it creates, and the simple fact that it is, no matter how beautiful, still a delusion.

It seems that you comprehend my point. Well said.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Mling]

To my cynical feminist anti-pornographic mind I find this statement quite sympomatic of the warped view of women presented by pornography. No there aren't many women who would desire such a thing innocent or not. It's not sexually empowering for a woman to have sex with lots of different men at the same time. A woman who allows herself to be used in this way is to pitied. I'm not a conservative either.

emphasis mine.

But this is just the point. A man "having" several women is considered a "player," and is seen as powerful. A woman who "has" several men is just allowing herself to be used? Why? Or, more accurately, why must it be so?

I see that situation as being very similar to the first---most straight men would not want to have sex in such close proximity to other, or have to "share" in the same way that most women would not want to "share." In both cases, the suggestion is that the one person is so desirable and powerful that their partners must share, because there's so much competition that monogamy is simply not an option.

Why, must a woman not want this? Why, if the woman is being desired by several men, must she be "allow[ing] herself to be used" rather than enjoying it?

What is so intrinsically weak about women that, even when in a situation that would be seen as "powerful" if she were a man, must it be assumed that she would never want such power for herself and is only doing it because she is being manipulated by men?

 

[Eudaimonist]

What is so intrinsically weak about women that, even when in a situation that would be seen as "powerful" if she were a man, must it be assumed that she would never want such power for herself and is only doing it because she is being manipulated by men?

That is the crux of the issue.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[meebs]

To my cynical feminist anti-pornographic mind I find this statement quite sympomatic of the warped view of women presented by pornography. No there aren't many women who would desire such a thing innocent or not. It's not sexually empowering for a woman to have sex with lots of different men at the same time. A woman who allows herself to be used in this way is to pitied. I'm not a conservative either.

If this is voluntary i doubt she is being used. Maybe she is using them at the same time? Maybe she is just enjoying herself like they are?

Im not after sex for power (in my own private time im after sex for enjoyment and i choose who to have sex with, these men appreciate me for who i am, maybe they might have a fantasy ideal about me - everybody does that! - but they accept me who i am - im "tomboyish and i dont wear make up!) nor do i feel im being used. But why do you think it's only men who are after threesomes or other aspects of fun sex? No - women do not all think the same. And im not saying this to be controversial, i am being genuine. Ok i may be in a minority, but still a minority has to be counted.

I also disagree with an earlier comment you made about porn stars exhibiting raw female sexual power or something along those lines. Porn stars have to keep their appearence in line with some male dictated standard of beauty, having big fake breasts isn't enough, they even have to go in for vaginal plastic surgery to get that perfect looking vagina. What is so powerful about a woman who has to undergo more and more drastic surgery purely so that a man can get a bigger thrill out of looking at her body?

I agree with Eudaimonists answer above.

And not all are - there are men (and women) who like their women natural. Just like i like my men natural!

Sexism and generalisations works both ways.

 

[quatona]

I fail to see how you can't possibly comprehend that it might be implied. I personally think that if you're saying people are "poor" (read: pitiful) and under illusions (read: deluded), then you are implying that those pitiful, deluded beliefs are somehow inferior in concept to the reality.

The quote spoke attributed "poor" to "illusions", not to "people".

That's pretty obvious, but then again, that's not what we were discussing. You were disputing my analogy in relation to that particular example of a woman in a assault filmed for porn.

From your post (#236) in question, as quoted by me:

A person interested in a gang bang in a porn movie is probably not looking for loveand further down:

People looking for love don't generally participate in gang bangs on video.

Just because you don't follow, doesn't mean my statements don't.

Then please fill in the missing links between
- participating in or looking at a porn movie and holding the view "anything goes"
- holding the view "anything goes" and generally not being looking for love.

 

[Athene]

emphasis mine.

But this is just the point. A man "having" several women is considered a "player," and is seen as powerful. A woman who "has" several men is just allowing herself to be used? Why? Or, more accurately, why must it be so?

By other men maybe, I just see them as liars unless they're extremely rich and then I think they're sad men using their money to live out adolescent fantasies. At least in this I am consistant.

Why, must a woman not want this? Why, if the woman is being desired by several men, must she be "allow[ing] herself to be used" rather than enjoying it?

Because she would be a fool to put herself in such a dangerous situation. And a bigger fool if she thinks they'd stll respect her in the morning.

What is so intrinsically weak about women that, even when in a situation that would be seen as "powerful" if she were a man, must it be assumed that she would never want such power for herself and is only doing it because she is being manipulated by men?

Will this blatant inequality between the way the two sexes are percieved be resolved by continual female capitulation too male sexual fantasies?

 

[OdwinOddball]

By other men maybe, I just see them as liars unless they're extremely rich and then I think they're sad men using their money to live out adolescent fantasies. At least in this I am consistant.


Because she would be a fool to put herself in such a dangerous situation. And a bigger fool if she thinks they'd stll respect her in the morning.


Will this blatant inequality between the way the two sexes are percieved be resolved by continual female capitulation too male sexual fantasies?

Well, all that may be true in your opinion, but that doesn't make it actually true, nor even correct for most cases. Porn is a very lucrative industry, and the women who do well in it, make a very good living. Women like Nina Hartley, Annie Sprinkles,and many others have turned their adult film star status into a very lucrative business which they greatly enjoy.

This whole topic is highly subjective. It would behoove many of you to stop spouting conjecture and perhaps actually ask some of the women who work in porn what they think of their job. The few I have met view it as their career, and one they willing entered and continue to love.

 

[Athene]

If this is voluntary i doubt she is being used. Maybe she is using them at the same time? Maybe she is just enjoying herself like they are?

And maybe if she has enough half way through she can just get up and walk out even if some men haven't had their turn . . .maybe.

Im not after sex for power (in my own private time im after sex for enjoyment and i choose who to have sex with, these men appreciate me for who i am, maybe they might have a fantasy ideal about me - everybody does that! - but they accept me who i am - im "tomboyish and i dont wear make up!) nor do i feel im being used. But why do you think it's only men who are after threesomes or other aspects of fun sex? No - women do not all think the same. And im not saying this to be controversial, i am being genuine. Ok i may be in a minority, but still a minority has to be counted.

I agree with Eudaimonists answer above.

And not all are - there are men (and women) who like their women natural. Just like i like my men natural!

Sexism and generalisations works both ways.

I was actually talking about mainstream porn stars seeing as this is a thread about pornography . . . If you wanted to start a thread about whether women should change their bodies at the request of their partners then I would definitly contribute.

I don't think it's just men who want threesomes, but I do see gangbangs as a very male act - traditionally used as a way to intimidate and terrorise women and other men even. To my knowledge women don't really go in for that.

 

[meebs]

Seems to me Athene that you have idealist standards about women. Sorry to burst this little bubble but things are not what you think. In some cases yes, but not always.

For example: what if some women are doing porn to exploit the men (and some womens) fantasies ie: making a living, like in any other business.

Most of the women will be doing what they do because they enjoy it and they earn money.

And some people do amteteur porn. Its not all professional, most do it simply for fun. Yes, they get off doing it in front of the camera.

 

[Mling]

By other men maybe, I just see them as liars unless they're extremely rich and then I think they're sad men using their money to live out adolescent fantasies. At least in this I am consistant.

Oh certainly. I'm not saying it's a healthy fantasy for anybody, just that in can be held by either gender.

Because she would be a fool to put herself in such a dangerous situation. And a bigger fool if she thinks they'd stll respect her in the morning.

dangerous in what way? In that they will "go too far" and hurt her, or because of STD's? Either way, there are ways to protect against it. The STD tests that, according to my understanding, are often required for porn models will help the latter, plus condoms. The camara on the other side of the room will probably help prevent the other.

As for respect...why not? If they are all doing porn, then they have no more reason to disrespect her then she has to disrespect them. If we're talking about "real life" then they could all be part of some group of friends, lovers or swingers. Or maybe she doesn't care if they respect her in the morning. She may not want them to even be there in the morning.

Will this blatant inequality between the way the two sexes are percieved be resolved by continual female capitulation too male sexual fantasies?

Again, why must it be a male fantasy? It is a female fantasy also. Yes, a base one, but so is the male equivalent.

 

[Athene]

Well, all that may be true in your opinion, but that doesn't make it actually true, nor even correct for most cases. Porn is a very lucrative industry, and the women who do well in it, make a very good living. Women like Nina Hartley, Annie Sprinkles,and many others have turned their adult film star status into a very lucrative business which they greatly enjoy.

This whole topic is highly subjective. It would behoove many of you to stop spouting conjecture and perhaps actually ask some of the women who work in porn what they think of their job. The few I have met view it as their career, and one they willing entered and continue to love.

The post you quoted I wasn't actually talking about pornography, the conversation had drifted and I think I was talking about sexuality in general. I don't believe female porn stars are exploited, I'm sure quite a few enjoy what they do and went into the work willingly. I don't however see them as icons of raw female sexual power, but rather symbols of male sexual fantasy. My view is that it's the male consumer who is most exploited.

 

[meebs]

And maybe if she has enough half way through she can just get up and walk out even if some men haven't had their turn . . .maybe.

Well if she wants to yeah. If these guys don't let her then it becomes rape and they should be arrested.

I don't think it's just men who want threesomes, but I do see gangbangs as a very male act - traditionally used as a way to intimidate and terrorise women and other men even. To my knowledge women don't really go in for that.

To your knowledge. But i suspect im not the only one who thinks differently to other women. Is there a norm? I don't think so. Some women want to keep their fantasies, desires and what they do in the bedroom a secret. Good on them, but i think you'd be suprised how a lot of women think differently from the supposed norm. Maybe they don't tell because they'd rather keep it a secret or feel they must fit in. None of our business really.

Im a little more open at least in talking about it because i accept my sexuality and my desires and maybe to open peoples eyes a little to the fact we are not all the same. I also accept that i like visualisation - i think that may have something to do with dyslexia though.

It just needs to be accepted that a lot of women do porn because they enjoy it. If they like to have sex with many men at once whats the problem? As long as it's played safe and all are consenting so what?

 

[WhoeverLovesGod01]

This thread needs to close because it's just become a forum for subtly expressing people's fantasies.

To the people I was addressing before, twisting the debate in order to avoid a level discussion field is childish and accomplishes nothing for your arguement.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Been away a few days... everyone worked out that women make BUCKETS of cash from freely consenting to appear in, produce, manage, direct, and crew in pornographic productiions yet? I.e. a form of empowerment?