Pope Francis writes about the Idolatory of money and devolving power from Rome...

[AMDG]

Snipped to portion addressed. Longer post above.

When the entire international economic system is unjust, we have to change it.

And we do that one individual heart at a time.

Also, why is any economic system that does not support the economic well being of the common man of the world considered good?

If you are asking why I consider the free-market system far better than the bartering one or the statism one, it's because it has actually worked to raise people from poverty and allows for that individual heart to be charitable.

The bartering system (that my son-in-law uses) doesn't. It only has people remaining in the status quo (and doesn't generate enough money to be truly helpful to others.

The statism (or command) system, only allows folks to raise to a common poverty (except for the elite) and therefore it does not allow individuals to be charitable even if they want. Because of all the red tape, and regulations, only the elite benefit. The poor get to remain poor and unable to help their neighbor, who is also in grinding poverty.

Only the free-market system encourages folks to "be the best that they can be"--to rise to the level they are prepared to work, to lift folks out of poverty (if they so choose.) They have "skin in the game" (like the people in the co-ops who benefit when things go well for them.) And when (and because) they are managing to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", they'll have extra to BE as charitable as Jesus wants us to be. Remember, it's not the system that allows us to love and respect and do good to our neighbor, it's the individual.

I think that what you despise, is cronyism. Cronyism is giving special deals to one's friends at the expense of others. I've seen it in both statist (command) and in the free-market economic systems. (Haven't seen it in the bartering economic system, but I'm sure it's there. The system doesn't seem used enough that I can tell.) Elites do it all the time in statist (command) economies. And that's what is awful in the free-market system when it happens. That is your sending jobs to China (GE) or having secret banking accounts in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands, or the tax evasion (Timothy Geithner, or Charlie Rangle, and didn't Kerry do that with his yacht) etc. It's not just the free market system that is guilty of being inhumane to man--those statist (command) systems are just as bad and even worse because they don't want people to be free at all. Still Systems aren't responsible for the actions of individuals--individuals are responsible for their own actions or inactions.

 

[Chany]

I don't think you understand.

One, capitalism, as it currently stands, rewards selfish and greedy behavior. There is no such thing as selflessness for a capitalist; any good action is not done because it is good, but that it furthers a selfish goal. It's hard to change hearts in a system that promotes selfish action.

Two, waiting to change everyone's hearts does not mean much to people who are starving and dying from capitalism/imperialism everyday.

Three, if we could change everyone's hearts to be good, we wouldn't have any need for laws, governments, jails, and contracts. If everyone was good, we could have Marx's ultimate vision work. We specifically need laws, however, to protect people from the wickedness among us. No one has any problems with laws against stealing and murder. Somehow, however, laws about protecting the economic status of the masses is seen as bad.

Four, why does having a different economic system than capitalism automatically equate to the entire destruction of the free market?

 

[S.ilvio]

I don't think you understand.

One, capitalism, as it currently stands, rewards selfish and greedy behavior. There is no such thing as selflessness for a capitalist; any good action is not done because it is good, but that it furthers a selfish goal. It's hard to change hearts in a system that promotes selfish action.

Two, waiting to change everyone's hearts does not mean much to people who are starving and dying from capitalism/imperialism everyday.

Three, if we could change everyone's hearts to be good, we wouldn't have any need for laws, governments, jails, and contracts. If everyone was good, we could have Marx's ultimate vision work. We specifically need laws, however, to protect people from the wickedness among us. No one has any problems with laws against stealing and murder. Somehow, however, laws about protecting the economic status of the masses is seen as bad.

Four, why does having a different economic system than capitalism automatically equate to the entire destruction of the free market?

Thank you Chany for putting into words what I believe, far better than I ever could...

 

[plmarquette]

Quit accepting the gospel of CNN, NBC, CBS, Fox....

The Pope is relating ....parable about the rich man who build bigger barns to keep all of the blessing...and was struck dead... Genesis 12.2-3 we who are blessed are to share with those who have not... been blessed to bless others (hand up, not hand out...give fish or teach to fish scenario)

We are caught up in "stuff"... Christmas , He gave gifts to men...do some reading in the Holy Writ ... 5- fold Ministry - Ephesians 4.11-12....9 gifts of Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 12.5-15 ... not gold, silver, cars, dresses, I-phones...

We are caught up in position, status, place... Deut. 28.1-8 ; Matthew 6.33 put God first and He will take care of you...

What has socialism produced... Franco in Spain...disaster... Hitler, Tojo, Mussolini ... billions of dead .... Pol Pot in Cambodia.... Common Market in Europe ...faltering.... If you take reward out of loop, if give all the same regardless of effort , all implodes... we need the Capitolistic "Carrot" before us... want more, do more....

 

[Chany]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

 

[MikeK]

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not.

Oddly enough, I see the more evidence proving the laws of Poe and Godwin on OBOB than for Christ's.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There IS NO perfect system of governance wherein no one will be poor or left behind or disenfranchised. To believe otherwise is the ultimate in naiveté. A free market is imperative, but regulation must also be present. In the U.S. we have two parties that are at their all time peak of extremism. Democrats think the government should control next to everything and, if they had total power unchecked, this country would be a socialist state. The Republicans, on the other hand, would eliminate ALL regulation if they could and the U.S. would be a polluted third-world country with the lowest wages, the hardest work, and the fewest benefits. Democrats care little for social morality, Republicans care little for the working man or the environment. Call me crazy, but I don't like EITHER of those choices. I guess I'm in good company, because Chesterton warned us of the folly of buying into the nonsense of partisanship!

 

[mark46]

I repeat this. Such nonsense speaks for itself.

You really believe that it can only be done as a Godless Marxist?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think Obama is a "Godless Marxist" as AMDG says, but where I differ is where somehow these Palin and Boehner types are supposedly Godly people?! The GOP is hell-bent on conquest, padding the wallets of CEO's, and making a buck off of ANYTHING, even if it gets people killed or destroys the environment. So I repeat, just as Mark1 repeats his statement, why do people buy into EITHER of these absurd parties?

At some point doesn't politics become an idol for us? My best friend is a hardened liberal Democrat. he's a man I just adore. Best friend, period. But I will say that he is blinded by liberal politics and allows it to alter his thinking and guide his 'faith' so to speak. His entire thrust is trying to justify liberal arguments. And they are usually godless ones. But my other super good friend in a neighboring town whom I adore, is positively the exact opposite! He is so full of hate for Obama and believes EVERYTHING Rush Limbaugh says without question or hesitation. He gets furious at anything that throws a monkey wrench in his arguments.

And what all my super liberal and super conservative friends seem to have in common is a Godless quality! They seem to think that not prayer, hope, faith, and Christ affecting change, but rather politicians being the only game-changer. At what point do we quit thinking we need to elect holiness into the U.S.? You can't elect your way to a God-filled society. You have to do your part to make it one, fight for it, pray for it, live Christ, and keep in mind that we are sojourners on this Earth passing through, and that our Kingdom is in the Most Holy Trinity. Voting for congressmen and presidents and governors is not the vehicle of change God wants of us. He wants a contrite heart, a prayerful populace, His flock going to prisons in ministry, to hospitals to visit the sick, feeding his people, reaching out to the lowly, and loving enemies. It's not easy.

It's easy to watch Faux Noize and MessedupNBC, and simple to suck up to a manifesto sold to us by secular goons, a lot more difficult to live a Christian life and trust that prayer and our own efforts combined with Grace are the REAL game-changers!

 

[Michie]

I think Obama is a "Godless Marxist" as AMDG says, but where I differ is where somehow these Palin and Boehner types are supposedly Godly people?! The GOP is hell-bent on conquest, padding the wallets of CEO's, and making a buck off of ANYTHING, even if it gets people killed or destroys the environment. So I repeat, just as Mark1 repeats his statement, why do people buy into EITHER of these absurd parties?

At some point doesn't politics become an idol for us? My best friend is a hardened liberal Democrat. he's a man I just adore. Best friend, period. But I will say that he is blinded by liberal politics and allows it to alter his thinking and guide his 'faith' so to speak. His entire thrust is trying to justify liberal arguments. And they are usually godless ones. But my other super good friend in a neighboring town whom I adore, is positively the exact opposite! He is so full of hate for Obama and believes EVERYTHING Rush Limbaugh says without question or hesitation. He gets furious at anything that throws a monkey wrench in his arguments.

And what all my super liberal and super conservative friends seem to have in common is a Godless quality! They seem to think that not prayer, hope, faith, and Christ affecting change, but rather politicians being the only game-changer. At what point do we quit thinking we need to elect holiness into the U.S.? You can't elect your way to a God-filled society. You have to do your part to make it one, fight for it, pray for it, live Christ, and keep in mind that we are sojourners on this Earth passing through, and that our Kingdom is in the Most Holy Trinity. Voting for congressmen and presidents and governors is not the vehicle of change God wants of us. He wants a contrite heart, a prayerful populace, His flock going to prisons in ministry, to hospitals to visit the sick, feeding his people, reaching out to the lowly, and loving enemies. It's not easy.

It's easy to watch Faux Noize and MessedupNBC, and simple to suck up to a manifesto sold to us by secular goons, a lot more difficult to live a Christian life and trust that prayer and our own efforts combined with Grace are the REAL game-changers!

Good post Gurney. I do think many have made politics an idol. There cannot be a discussion without inserting politics. I think that says something. It has become a religion of sorts.

 

[AMDG]

Good post Gurney. I do think many have made politics an idol. There cannot be a discussion without inserting politics. I think that says something. It has become a religion of sorts.

Just to answer this--

Politics is not the only god we have made for ourselves. Liberal Theology, Marxism, Statists Economies, class warfare, but also power, sports, cars, casual sex, abortion, and probably other topics. And we like to point out the splinter in our neighbor's eye while ignoring the log in our own.

Really do think that we need to remember that it's the LOVE of money that's wrong, not MONEY (money is just the vehicle that we use to make lives better.) And so if the economic system of free markets, can raise someone out of poverty and allow the individual to then follow the command of Jesus to be charitable then IMO that's far better than making everyone equally poor to the extent that they are unable to help or prevented from helping their neighbor.

It's not up to an economic system to obey the First Commandment, it's the INDIVIDUAL and we are all that INDIVIDUAL who will change hearts. (Just off hand, can you all imagine the good that will be done when individual hearts are changed--not if we switch to this economic system or that one.)

 

[S.ilvio]

I think Obama is a "Godless Marxist"

We're all prone to poetic license, me more than most. But to suggest Barry is a Marxist is way off the radar.

Just because he may have attended meetings in college with Left leaning individuals, does not make him Marxist.

Also to back up such a wild statement, a little, miniscule shred of evidence in his policies as President would be most welcome...

 

[Chany]

Good post Gurney. I do think many have made politics an idol. There cannot be a discussion without inserting politics. I think that says something. It has become a religion of sorts.

If a dictatorship is ruling your country and destroying its people, how much of your time and thoughts would be dedicated to it?

 

[ebia]

Just to answer this-- Politics is not the only god we have made for ourselves. Liberal Theology, Marxism, Statists Economies, class warfare, but also power, sports, cars, casual sex, abortion, and probably other topics. And we like to point out the splinter in our neighbor's eye while ignoring the log in our own. Really do think that we need to remember that it's the LOVE of money that's wrong, not MONEY (money is just the vehicle that we use to make lives better.) And so if the economic system of free markets, can raise someone out of poverty and allow the individual to then follow the command of Jesus to be charitable then IMO that's far better than making everyone equally poor to the extent that they are unable to help or prevented from helping their neighbor. It's not up to an economic system to obey the First Commandment, it's the INDIVIDUAL and we are all that INDIVIDUAL who will change hearts. (Just off hand, can you all imagine the good that will be done when individual hearts are changed--not if we switch to this economic system or that one.)

Your post seems to flow in the opposite direction to Evangelii Gaudium in being so individualistic as much as anything else.

 

[MikeK]

We're all prone to poetic license, me more than most. But to suggest Barry is a Marxist is way off the radar.

Surprisingly few Americans have read Kapitol or Communist Manifesto and instead make up their own ideas of what Marx tought and what Marxism is. Many Americans are very poorly educated and are very quick to demonstrate as much. No Marxist would sell publicly-held shares of a business back to its private owners and no Marxist would sign his name to the ACA which put even more power into the hands of privately held hospitals, drug companies and insurance companies that they had before.

 

[S.ilvio]

Surprisingly few Americans have read Kapitol or Communist Manifesto and instead make up their own ideas of what Marx tought and what Marxism is. Many Americans are very poorly educated and are very quick to demonstrate as much. No Marxist would sell publicly-held shares of a business back to its private owners and no Marxist would sign his name to the ACA which put even more power into the hands of privately held hospitals, drug companies and insurance companies that they had before.

If a devotee of Marx proposed ACA, old Karl would be doing somersaults in his grave...

 

[AMDG]

We're all prone to poetic license, me more than most. But to suggest Barry is a Marxist is way off the radar.

Just because he may have attended meetings in college with Left leaning individuals, does not make him Marxist.

Also to back up such a wild statement, a little, miniscule shred of evidence in his policies as President would be most welcome...

Hmmm--you act like being a Marxist is some sort of insult instead of just pointing out the truth. It just is. Nothing more.

In his books, he said that he preferred the Marxists, and the Revolutionaries, and the Radicals. While at Columbia he's even hanging out at Cooper Union when there were known Marxist gatherings. (If that doesn't mean "I really endorse everything about the system", I don't know what would besides an out-and-out confession.) And we know that Harvard is full of Marxist teachers (and therefore the students will be taught to prefer Marxism).

Look closely at the picture of Obama supposedly teaching Constitutional law. On the blackboard he's teaching Saul Alinsky (Marxist community organizer whose book is even dedicated to Lucifer.) Just about everything he's done while in office is Marxist--from trying to overwhelm the economic system (something taught by Cloward and Piven at Colombia), to trying to destroy the Constitution and become a dictator like in Venezuela (another Marxist?) acting unconstitutionally and unilaterally as if Congress didn't exist. He even presumes to pick the laws to enforce and changes others! U.S. Presidents don't have that option. The Supreme Court has found a number of things he's done--like preventing folks in Louisiana from working to making recess appointments when Congress wasn't in recess. It's right there. All one has to do is look--really look. In many ways he has already admitted it.

As far as Godless, it is strange that this country has ALWAYS honored God--mentioned Him a lot in all documents for YEARS and YEARS. Our motto is "In God We Trust" (don't believe that bit that it's only been our motto since 1956--find the fourth stanza of our National anthem, written in 1814-15, you'll find the words "and this be our motto: in God is our Trust), yet Obama is the first president to repeatedly drop the word "God" or "under God", our motto was only officially to be put on the coins in 1956--it's already on the buildings in Washington DC built long before. Presidents after Presidents have invoked God and Thanksgiving to Him (and even asked the country to fast and pray), but not Obama. He is the ONLY president who has talked about "collective salvation" which is Marxists talk to tell the population in order to control them.

I'm not saying anything that isn't already known.

 

[S.ilvio]

Hmmm--you act like being a Marxist is some sort of insult instead of just pointing out the truth. It just is. Nothing more.

In his books, he said that he preferred the Marxists, and the Revolutionaries, and the Radicals. While at Columbia he's even hanging out at Cooper Union when there were known Marxist gatherings. (If that doesn't mean "I really endorse everything about the system", I don't know what would besides an out-and-out confession.) And we know that Harvard is full of Marxist teachers (and therefore the students will be taught to prefer Marxism).

Look closely at the picture of Obama supposedly teaching Constitutional law. On the blackboard he's teaching Saul Alinsky (Marxist community organizer whose book is even dedicated to Lucifer.) Just about everything he's done while in office is Marxist--from trying to overwhelm the economic system (something taught by Cloward and Piven at Colombia), to trying to destroy the Constitution and become a dictator like in Venezuela (another Marxist?) acting unconstitutionally and unilaterally as if Congress didn't exist. He even presumes to pick the laws to enforce and changes others! U.S. Presidents don't have that option. The Supreme Court has found a number of things he's done--like preventing folks in Louisiana from working to making recess appointments when Congress wasn't in recess. It's right there. All one has to do is look--really look. In many ways he has already admitted it.

As far as Godless, it is strange that this country has ALWAYS honored God--mentioned Him a lot in all documents for YEARS and YEARS. Our motto is "In God We Trust" (don't believe that bit that it's only been our motto since 1956--find the fourth stanza of our National anthem, written in 1814-15, you'll find the words "and this be our motto: in God is our Trust), yet Obama is the first president to repeatedly drop the word "God" or "under God", our motto was only officially to be put on the coins in 1956--it's already on the buildings in Washington DC built long before. Presidents after Presidents have invoked God and Thanksgiving to Him (and even asked the country to fast and pray), but not Obama. He is the ONLY president who has talked about "collective salvation" which is Marxists talk to tell the population in order to control them.

I'm not saying anything that isn't already known.

Straight out of the Newt Gingrich book of "Throw as much mud as you can and see how much of it sticks".

Neither do I view referring to someone as Marxist as an insult.

Now, can you point out any of Barry's policies as President as being explicitly or implicitly Marxist..?

 

[AMDG]

If a devotee of Marx proposed ACA, old Karl would be doing somersaults in his grave...

Yep, somersaults of glee. Control of 1/6th to the nation's economy in a way that Obama has the "goods" on anyone who might even speak against what he's doing. Destroying the best health care system in the world (not just my opinion, the rich in Canada and the UK would come to the U.S. to get the care they couldn't get in their own countries!) while claiming the health care insurance of at least 100 million people who were happy with their health care insurance and will not be under Obamacare, while making certain that the people cannot trust their leaders, and getting rid of that pesky Catholic Church who staunchly is against abortion, contraceptives, and same-sex "marriage".

 

[AMDG]

Now, can you point out any of Barry's policies as President as being explicitly or implicitly Marxist..?

I did. You just refuse to read them.