Pope Francis, in Shift for Church, Voices Support for Same-Sex Civil Unions

[Speedwell]

I wasn't being serious.

Then I apologize for taking your post #18 to be so.

 

[rambot]

Well if there is a second person, it would be you. Have a nice day.

haha. If you were trying to undermine my point, I appreciate you amplifying it instead!

 

[Swag365]

haha. If you were trying to undermine my point, I appreciate you amplifying it instead!

You had a point? This is news to us.

 

[Pommer]

You had a point? This is news to us.

You carry that shoulder-chip all day?

 

[Swag365]

You carry that shoulder-chip all day?

Not a chip, dust my friend. Go ahead and dust it off for me.

 

[rambot]

You had a point? This is news to us.

Oooo..... First person plural. Best not mess with this guy.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I wasn't being serious. From what I understand Pope Francis has discontinued the use of the term, so at least at present I think it is a bit of a moot issue. Regardless, the Catholic faith does not teach that the pope is infalliable, or incapable of making error. It is only under very limited circumstances where that occurs. I think the last time infalliability was invoked was something like 70 years ago.

I'm not sure why you would think I could possibly understand that you were not being serious - and I don't even understand why you were not being serious. That is a mystery to me.

Thanks for your conjecture on the topic, but can you point to the catechism or official Roman Catholic doctrine to back up your claims? It sounds like you're unsure of specifics.

I always find it very odd for a Roman Catholic to be so critical of the Pope of their Church. I have to wonder why someone who is at odds with the Pope over big issues (and usually multiple ones at that) would remain a Roman Catholic.

I'm not Roman Catholic but from what I know of Pope Francis he is a good Pope and goes by the Word of God, I don't know him to have been mistaken on anything at all.

 

[Swag365]

I'm not sure why you would think I could possibly understand that you were not being serious - and I don't even understand why you were not being serious. That is a mystery to me.

I thought that the proposition was ridiculous on its face. I mean, popes have taught heresy, and been formally corrected by the Church at later points in time.

Thanks for your conjecture on the topic, but can you point to the catechism or official Roman Catholic doctrine to back up your claims? It sounds like you're unsure of specifics.

See paragraph 891 of the current Catechism.

I always find it very odd for a Roman Catholic to be so critical of the Pope of their Church. I have to wonder why someone who is at odds with the Pope over big issues (and usually multiple ones at that) would remain a Roman Catholic.

Go ahead and ask such people when you encounter them. No need to wonder. But popes have taught heresy in the past. Will likely happen again in the future. I don't see why I would leave the Church if I thought the pope was wrong on a particular point. Now, if I thought that the teaching of the Church was XYZ, and I disagreed with XYZ, then I would leave the church. But the teaching of an individual pope at a particular point in time does not necessarily equate to the teaching of the Church. Popes can err, although I personally believe that they should be given a huge benefit of the doubt by lay Catholics.

I'm not Roman Catholic but from what I know of Pope Francis he is a good Pope and goes by the Word of God, I don't know him to have been mistaken on anything at all.

Well I don't think I have seen anything that is clearly in error, although a few things he has stated here and there have given me pause.

 

[Swag365]

Oooo..... First person plural. Best not mess with this guy.

Oooo.....edumacation.

 

[Sparagmos]

Also I have seen a horrible thing in the prophets of Jerusalem: They commit adultery and walk in lies; They also strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one turns back from his wickedness.

Acceptance of sin strengthens their hand. This is wrong.

Most sins are legal. Are you in favor of making all sins illegal?

 

[Yttrium]

Not being Catholic, I don't know. I know that Roman Catholics consider him "the vicar of Christ" but I don't know if that carries infallibility with the title. Thank you for clarifying. The next question I have is why would a Catholic criticize their infallible Pope as being wrong, i.e. fallible?

Papal infallibility refers to the Pope speaking ex cathedra, which is used extremely rarely, and hasn't been used since 1950.

 

[pdudgeon]

What is wrong with civil unions? They are only recognized by the state, not the church.

That's one of the things that is wrong with them.
The second thing wrong is that, being a civil union (as opposed to a marriage) the relationship of the two people in each relationship is different from the very beginning.

In a marriage, they are joined together as one: husband and wife, and both have some very specific responsibilities towards each other.
In a civil union, they are equal partners (but they still retain their individuality, which is more like a business relationship).

 

[pdudgeon]

So you don't believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ? Or you believe that the Vicar of Christ is wrong?

I believe you're going a bit off track, aren't you?

 

[FreedomForever]

I wonder if all Catholics who support their own pope will immediately be banned/prohibited from participating in the 'Christian' sections of this website? Since the site runners, and many conservative churches, take it upon themselves that decide what is a Christian adn what is allowed to be debated and discussed about the Bible?

The truth on this matter is complex. A great deal of the supposed condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible stem from mistranslations and/or are rooted in highly specific historical and cultural subtext that you cannot translate into modern darn relationships. That does not mean the issue is settled - it required continued historical and contextual analysis. And search for God's heart in all this. When you shut down discussion, you shut down truth, and you shut down exploring the scriptures.

Those that pretend that supporting the view that the pope holds in this case is betraying Jesus or the Bible - are making a mockery of both.

 

[Paulos23]

That's one of the things that is wrong with them.

Sorry you feel that way, but the church is not the sole arbiter of civil law and legal rights. In fact, in some states, they can even get married just by going to the town hall and it is up to them if they want the religious ceremony.

As an ex-Catholic, I don't see where the church has any authority over people not in their membership either, much less over the legal rights of their members given to them by the state.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I believe you're going a bit off track, aren't you?

A bit. I noticed that you can't answer, though. Interesting.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The pope is infalliable don't you know? That means that every single word said by a pope in the history of the world is correct.

Huh? Every single word?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not being Catholic, I don't know. I know that Roman Catholics consider him "the vicar of Christ" but I don't know if that carries infallibility with the title. Thank you for clarifying. The next question I have is why would a Catholic criticize their infallible Pope as being wrong, i.e. fallible?

Because infallibility never applied to everything a pope said or did. We have plenty of room to be critical. This is but one instance.

 

[pdudgeon]

So what do you propose to do about it? What do you think should be done?

This is one for the Cardinals to handle.

 

[jgarden]

How naive the Pope must be to think that this approach has a ghost of a chance of succeeding. It didn't before, so why would it now?

Let's not forget that after 2000 years, the Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church didn't just decided to extend their search for a new Pope beyond the traditional confines of Italy and Europe because it was the "inclusive" thing to do!

For centuries the Church had succumbed to an unwillingness to even acknowledge the inappropriate conduct within its own ranks, until confronted by internal and external forces released in the late 20th and early 21st C that it could no longer ignore, pressuring the Cardinals to go outside their comfort zone by recruiting a younger, more dynamic leader!

To his credit, Francis knows that his mandate and future of the Church will inevitably force him to challenge the traditionalists in the Curia that grown accustomed to wielding an inordinate amount of power - facilitated by a succession of older, more sedentary "interim" Popes that have characterized much of the Church's history!