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Pope Francis in critical condition after health deteriorates, Vatican says

JSRG

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Do you have evidence it is a forgery? I dont know, do you? It was pretty accurate if a forgery...

There are several points of evidence that is a forgery.

The first is that although Malachy supposedly gave this prophecy in the 12th century, there is no mention of until the late 16th. Now, this by itself does not prove it is a forgery. It could be the prophecy was lost and only rediscovered; there are plenty of times we have only rediscovered old documents long after they were made, and perhaps the prophecy, once made, was simply put into a vault somewhere and few knew about it at the time. But it means that one should, at at minimum, be cautious.

The second is the point that so many have pointed out: The prophecies are quite easy to connect to popes before the prophecy was uncovered, but much harder to do so for popes after the prophecy was uncovered. It is not clear if your "it was pretty accurate if a forgery" is supposed to refer to the earlier popes on the list or the later ones. The earlier ones are simply explained by it being a forgery, and to call the later ones "pretty accurate" is to stretch things. Certain popes one can consider to well align, but others are much more strained, which would be typical if someone were to rattle off so many random brief descriptions.

It is, however, true that whether something is "strained" or not can be subjective, but there does seem a distinct difference in the earlier ones from the later ones.

This brings us to the third one, which is more objective, and was brought up by M.J. O'Brien, a priest who wrote a work critical of the prophecy (also available here) that, while a bit old (19th century) is worth reading. He observed that the list of prophecies prior to discovery bear a startling similarity to the information given about popes in a work by Onuphrius Pavinius (or Onofrio Panvinio) that was published a few decades prior to the prophecy's publication. As he observes:

Any person who opens this work and compares the account of the popes in it from Celestine II. to Paul IV., with the corresponding part of the "Prophecy of St. Malachy" will come to the conclusion that the writer of the latter, if not Panvinius himself, must have been some one who followed Panvinius's account rather too closely. In Panvinius's Epitome, the popes' armorial bearings are given, but not in every case. When the arms are given, we usually find that they figure in the prophecy, when not given, the prophecy is a play upon, or a description of the pope's name, country, family, or title, when cardinal.

He also notes that the prophecy follows errors in Panvinius's work, such as the inclusion of antipopes (sometimes there were multiple people claiming to be the pope--the ones regarded as the wrong ones are called antipopes). After Adrian IV, it lists Victor IV, Callixtus III, and Paschal III--all antipopes. It was actually Alexander III who is regarded as the true pope during that period. But what is notable is that Pavinius's book lists, apparently erroneously, Victor IV, Callixtus III, and Paschal III. And this is followed by the prophecy. Similarly done is listing Nicholas V (antipope opposing John XXII) between John XXII and Benedict XII, which is done in Panvinius's work. Granted, Panvinius does describe Nicholas V as an antipope, and the prophecy for him is "schismatic crow" in apparent acknowledgment, but then why are the prior antipopes listed as if they were actual popes, with no such indication?

But if someone wants a summary of the problems with the prophecy, I will once again quote M.J. O'Brien (summarizing criticisms, which he discussed in more detail afterwards):

The foregoing is what Moréri has to say against the prophecies, and nearly every thing which has been said against them since his time is merely a repetition of his words. His objections may be summarized as follows: 1, The silence of St. Bernard; 2, the silence of those whose relations with the Holy See were of such a nature that they would surely have heard of those prophecies if they had existed; 3, the silence of those who wrote about the popes, especially of Ciacconius; 4, the silence of Irish writers; 5, internal evidence: (a) anachronisms; (b)prophecies founded on false assumption of facts; (c) non-fulfilment of prophecy from 1590.
 
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JSRG

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Proving that someone did not write something 450 years (or 850 years, for that matter) after their death is impossible. You cannot prove a negative.

Considering that they were preparing to sit in conclave to elect the 75th on the list when the prophecy was "discovered," it would seem to neither be true prophecy nor coincidence. Notably, the description matched Cardinal Simoncelli - who was in consideration, but was NOT elected.

The "prophecies" are so vague that you can nearly always force a connection. However, of the last several on the list, only John XXIII was a reasonably clear match ("shepherd and sailor" - he was from Venice, a city with a seafaring tradition). Attempts to match Paul VI to "flower of flowers", John Paul I to "of the half moon", John Paul II to "from the labor of the sun", Benedict XVI to "glory of the olive", or Francis to "Peter the Roman" are significantly more tortured.

The official Church position on the Prophecy of the Popes is that it was a fabrication.

While I agree with much of this, as can be seen in my prior post, there is no "official Church position" that it is a forgery; there is no "official Church position" on it at all. It has simply not weighed in on the question, as is the case for almost all prophecies.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Until the moment when it was "found". Then it stopped being any more accurate than the prophecies of Nostradamus and other charlatans.
Yet that does not prove anything. Lots of things were "found" centuries after they were written...dead sea scrolls for example
 
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Nithavela

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Yet that does not prove anything. Lots of things were "found" centuries after they were written...dead sea scrolls for example
Do you think that all things that can't be proven untrue are equally likely?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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While I agree with much of this, as can be seen in my prior post, there is no "official Church position" that it is a forgery; there is no "official Church position" on it at all. It has simply not weighed in on the question, as is the case for almost all prophecie
I have heard, do not know if it is true, there is a room in the vatican where there are plates with all the popes portraits on a wall. Francis is there and room for only 1 plate left...
 
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Nithavela

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Yes it is
No, it isn't. I asked you about likelyhood. Likelyhood is not a binary thing.

I am not as likely to win the lottery as I am to not win the lottery when I play it.

Saying that I might win or not win the lottery when I play does not help me make the decision if I should play the lottery. We can't organize our life based on the assumptions that all things are equally likely, we need to discern what is probable.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No, it isn't. I asked you about likelyhood. Likelyhood is not a binary thing.

I am not as likely to win the lottery as I am to not win the lottery when I play it.

Saying that I might win or not win the lottery when I play does not help me make the decision if I should play the lottery. We can't organize our life based on the assumptions that all things are equally likely, we need to discern what is probable.
That is quite different. The probability of you winning is likely very low.
 
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DaisyDay

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They are either true or not until proven true or untrue...
Is that right? Seems to me that they are either true or not if and only if they are true or not independent of proof. The proof only affects knowledge, not being.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Is that right? Seems to me that they are either true or not if and only if they are true or not independent of proof. The proof only affects knowledge, not being.
truth is truth...
 
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RileyG

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Yeshua HaDerekh

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That “document” has been proven to be a forgery. I take it with a grain of salt.
I dont know if that is true or not since I have not seen any concrete proof it is.
 
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RileyG

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I dont know if that is true or not since I have not seen any concrete proof it is.
I doubt it’s true. I’m not worried at all. The sky is not falling.
 
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