Pope Francis Condemns too much Keeping of the Ten Commandments

[paul becke]

Explain it to me then, especially the coward part by the pope

If I may interject, I believe it is all explained in Luke 13:10-14.

Jesus was stating that preoccupation with a rigorous and fastidious legalism, as was possible in the privilieged lives of the Pharisees, can, in the real world, where dog-eat-dog cut and thrust can produce scenarios, in which moral choices are not necessarily clear-cut, black and white choices, and conflicting pressures can mount disturbingly, lead to an inordinate, personal vanity, narcissism and self-obsession on the part of the person concerned, very inimical to the charitable commitment of the noble Christian soul.

There is a passage at the end of Graham Greene's novella, The Power and the Glory, describing a situation which the whiskey priest and a bandit were being shot at by Mexican police (the Church having been outlawed). In fact, the bandit had been shot and was dying. But instead of turning his mind to contemplate The Last Things, he took to shouting advice to the priest as to how to avoid being shot by them !!! Wonderfully hilarious, but it rings so true about many a 'rough diamond'. The Beatitudes are about the 'jewels', the most precious gems' of mankind, be they never so indigent and rough in appearance and demeanour.

Remember that other bandido, Tuco, berating his brother, the monk, who had chosen to dedicate himself as Corban, instead of looking after their aged parents, as Tuco had done ?

 

[paul becke]

The Ten Commandments were not given for self righteous justification. They were given to protect the people and to show that it is impossible to be fully righteous as humans.

They were the "bar". God set the bar to show what is necessary to be pure and accepted as righteous. However, nobody has ever been able to meet this "bar", excepting Christ.

Thus, these commandments stand as a blatant beacon to light the failure of every human to meet the mark and be worthy of everlasting life,.... on their own.

Well spoken, JacksBratt and dqhall. Also, your post 32, JimR-OCDS. Some youngsters on here would have too little experience of life to see more deeply into the words of scripture. Oddly enough, that great pioneer of quantum mechanics, Niels Bohr, was talking about the mysterious paradoxes about the world hitherto thought to be physical, but which QM showed to be otherwise, in this quote : 'The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.'

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I was responding to GRU...

So you actually don't believe what the media in the OP claimed about the Pope Francis homily. Great.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes I would agree that trying to keep the commandments is not enough to make us righteous but that the blood of Christ and His ever present Spirit that is dwelling within us does. That said, let us not forget that Jesus certainly loved and delighted in those who loved the commandments. And His indwelling Spirit within us should delight us as well. Jesus not only completely kept them all Himself, but loved to see people being obedient to them.

You are correct. Sorry, I never intended to suggest that we should not strive to follow them. Just that a humans we will always fail to keep them all.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Anyway, I see why it was an error to get involved in a thread like this.

Unsubscribing.

God Bless
Jim

Well at least there were a few non-Catholics that like yourself here kept it positive and did not leap in with the media's attack on the Church, which is an attack on all Christians and Christianity. Thanks for that.

 

[John Hyperspace]

The Ten Commandments were not given for self righteous justification. They were given to protect the people and to show that it is impossible to be fully righteous as humans.

They were the "bar". God set the bar to show what is necessary to be pure and accepted as righteous. However, nobody has ever been able to meet this "bar", excepting Christ.

Thus, these commandments stand as a blatant beacon to light the failure of every human to meet the mark and be worthy of everlasting life,.... on their own.

Right, I think we agree on the basic understand of the purpose of the 10 commandments. And so since we can't get life from following the 10 commandments (Leviticus 18:5, Romans 10:5, Galatians 3:12, Galatians 3:21) then there's no point in following the 10 commandments to get life from them. Bu attempting to do so, one only gets death and curse from them (Galatians 3:10) which is why the law was called the ministration of death to be done away with (2 Corinthians 3:7).

Now, of the law its said Galatians 3:12 and of that which is not of faith it is written Romans 14:23 and so 1 Corinthians 15:56. So this being the case, what is the only reason people would attempt to keep the 10 commandments? It is written: Romans 10:3-4. It is to attempt to establish their own righteousness, instead of being made righteous through faith in Christ.

Take a look at people who post about the 10 commandments, and "rule-keeping" on this forum. It is boasting, pride, self-righteousness. That is the only reason to attempt to keep the 10 commandments: to appear righteous before others. The result however is that, whether they know it or not, they are committing spiritual suicide, and trying to get others to follow suit and fall from grace with them. It is a death-trap. A snare: which is why it is written: Romans 11:9

Now, I'm not entirely sure Francis(?) is on the same page here, but he is on the right track, if nothing else. He is at the very least indirectly warning people who are on the road to death.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I want to commend all the Christians posting here with a more positive view of this. The sooner we all realize that attach on any part of Christianity, which includes all of us here and it includes the RCC, is an attack on all of us the better off we all will be.
The Church's unwavering stand on the Sacrament of Marriage and against notions destructive to it is incompatible with the message the media wants to put in Pope Francis mouth.

 

[rockytopva]

The man of sin just roared like a dragon... calling those that faithfully do as Christ Commanded are "cowardly" is the most blatant evidence yet. I wonder which Command he would prefer we forget? Maybe the one that begins with "Remember"?

I was wondering how long it would take for an SDA believer to reply here.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I was wondering how long it would take for an SDA believer to reply here.

Little over an hour. Not a record I suppose. Isn't it sabbath after sundown? Maybe just a slow day.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Right, I think we agree on the basic understand of the purpose of the 10 commandments. And so since we can't get life from following the 10 commandments (Leviticus 18:5, Romans 10:5, Galatians 3:12, Galatians 3:21) then there's no point in following the 10 commandments to get life from them. Bu attempting to do so, one only gets death and curse from them (Galatians 3:10) which is why the law was called the ministration of death to be done away with (2 Corinthians 3:7).

Now, of the law its said Galatians 3:12 and of that which is not of faith it is written Romans 14:23 and so 1 Corinthians 15:56. So this being the case, what is the only reason people would attempt to keep the 10 commandments? It is written: Romans 10:3-4. It is to attempt to establish their own righteousness, instead of being made righteous through faith in Christ.

Take a look at people who post about the 10 commandments, and "rule-keeping" on this forum. It is boasting, pride, self-righteousness. That is the only reason to attempt to keep the 10 commandments: to appear righteous before others. The result however is that, whether they know it or not, they are committing spiritual suicide, and trying to get others to follow suit and fall from grace with them. It is a death-trap. A snare: which is why it is written: Romans 11:9

Now, I'm not entirely sure Francis(?) is on the same page here, but he is on the right track, if nothing else. He is at the very least indirectly warning people who are on the road to death.

How about because Christ asked us to... remember, "if ye love me, keep my Commandments?"

How about...

1 John 2:3-7
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

I'll take Christ's advice, thanx anyway.

 

[Lepanto]

I wouldn't disagree with him. Christianity in general has put the cart before the horse, that's why it's virtually completely wrecked. The commandments were given not to give life, or be used for self-righteous justification; but to stop everyone's self-righteous mouths (Romans 3:19): but as the Pharisees of old, they continue in spirit still; using the thing that condemns to seek to estalbish their own righteousness before men. Too many Christians glorying in their own works of feigned obedience (which are filth in the eyes of God) and too few glorying in Christ's unfeigned obedience for their sake.

There is indeed a golden calf being worshipped; they are blind to the fact that it is them.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Nonsense. You have associated keeping the 10 Commandments with self-glorification.

You might as well say "dressing well is bad because it leads to vanity, so don't wear suit and tie". That's wrong, dressing well is good but dressing well for vanity is abuse.

You can't differentiate between a good thing and its abuse.


(By the way, Christianity is not wrecked, it has been strong and alive for 2000 years. Where did you get that wrong idea?)

 

[John Hyperspace]

You can't differentiate between a good thing and its abuse.

Enlighten me as to the difference in keeping the 10 commandments as a "good thing" and keeping the 10 commandments as "abuse"?

Also, may I propose that instead of calling it "keeping the 10 commandments" we call it "breaking the 10 commandments"? If you really do not like calling it "breaking" (since you do, I presume break them?) why do you like calling it "keeping"? Is it because the word "keeping" makes you look, righteous? Whereas "breaking" makes you look, unrighteous?

May I ask, do you keep them? Or, do you break them?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I was wondering how long it would take for an SDA believer to reply here.

Hey an SDA is the OP

 

[John Hyperspace]

So to walk, even as He walked means nothing to you in this context.

Of course it does, it means to walk in the light of love of others: 1 John 1:7, Ephesians 5:8. So what is the "light" in which we walk, and what is the "darkness" in which we do not walk? 1 John 2:8-10, 1 John 2:11 It's love isn't it? That is the walk of Jesus, even to to greatest display of love possible: John 15:13: and so we walk even as He walked: Ephesians 5:2

Yet again, I will note that this love is not of our own selves: so there is no credit given to you and me; but only to the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5), and Jesus, the only-righteous One: Romans 3:10 by Whom we are made righteous (not by works of the law, which men only "break" as a show of self-righteousness, and by breaking them, dishounor God: Romans 2:23) by faith in His righteousness, and not our own (Philippians 3:9), we being breakers of the law.

If Jesus kept His Fathers Commandments, then we ought to as well.

Breaking the commandments is not something to be proud of. You say "keep the commandments" but you really "break the commandments": you only call it "keeping the commandments" because of the desire to appear self-righteousness. Why do you not call what you do "breaking the commandments"? (I presume you do break them?) Why do you call what you do "keeping the commandments"? Why do you choose the word "keeping" over "breaking" when describing your relationship to the law? Is it, to appear self-righteous by using the word "keeping"?

Also, Jesus did not say "Keep My Father's commandments, as I have done": then, why are you saying something Jesus didn't say?

Here's some scripture to help...
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Actually those don't help at all unless we know what the will of the Father toward us is. John tells us: John 6:29, 1 John 3:23

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Breaking the commandments is not something to be proud of. You say "keep the commandments" but you really "break the commandments": you only call it "keeping the commandments" because of the desire to appear self-righteousness. Why do you not call what you do "breaking the commandments"? (I presume you do break them?) Why do you call what you do "keeping the commandments"? Why do you choose the word "keeping" over "breaking" when describing your relationship to the law? Is it, to appear self-righteous by using the word "keeping"?

It's called keeping the Law because that is my desire and God's desire to help me achieve. Of course I break them but Jesus is Just in forgiving me when I repent and ask for forgiveness and the Spirit gives me the Grace to be able to obey moment by moment.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It's called keeping the Law because that is my desire and God's desire to help me achieve. Of course I break them but Jesus is Just in forgiving me when I repent and ask for forgiveness and the Spirit gives me the Grace to be able to obey moment by moment.

What exemption from bearing false witness is given to justify statements like post#6 ?

Pope Francis Condemns too much Keeping of the Ten Commandments

 

[FireDragon76]

The Pope is doing nothing more than being a preacher of a Gospel of true grace and mercy. He has said nothing more than what Luther said, when he wrote we must "sin boldly". And this is the only way to live in this world without being a hypocrite. Indeed, this was Luther's final words "We are all beggars, this is true". We are all as much dependent on divine grace as the next person.

What the Pope is saying, when it comes to who deserves the sacraments, "we are all beggars". No beggar has a right to tell another one they cannot be there.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The Pope is doing nothing more than being a preacher of a Gospel of true grace and mercy. He has said nothing more than what Luther said, when he wrote we must "sin boldly". And this is the only way to live in this world without being a hypocrite. Indeed, this was Luther's final words "We are all beggars, this is true". We are all as much dependent on divine grace as the next person.

What the Pope is saying, when it comes to who deserves the sacraments, "we are all beggars". No beggar has a right to tell another one they cannot be there.

Except sinning boldly is not what Pope Francis said in the homily quoted by the OP article. In fact am aware of no one but Luther who proclaimed Christians should sin boldly. So am not sure how the comparison applies to the OP's false claims/witness against the Pope. Or this one for that matter.

 

[Soyeong]

In order to defend himself against his critics, Pope Francis accused some Christians of having too much concern for the Ten Commandments, saying they suffer from “cowardliness,” and warning that such people become “paralyzed” and unable to “go forward.”

“‘Obeying all the commandments, all of them…’” said the pope, negatively characterizing the thinking of such Christians, “paralyzes you too. It makes you forget so many graces received, it takes away memory, it takes away hope, because it doesn’t allow you to go forward.” Such people become “confined souls” who suffer from the sin of “cowardice,” the pope added.

In other words, keeping the Ten Commandments prevents progress. And if you want to have hope, you cannot keep the Ten Commandments.

The pope’s remarks were made during a homily in the Casa Santa Marta where he lives in the Vatican. They appear to be in response to criticism for his support for giving the Eucharist to those who are living in adulterous second “marriages,” which contradicts Canon Law. Pope Francis recently suggested that people in these kinds of “civil” marriages should be able to receive the Eucharist.

Some conservative cardinals have likened Francis’ position to “Aaronic” priests who enable their flock to sin against the Ten Commandments, like the High Priest Aaron in the Book of Exodus, who built a golden calf to allow the Israelites to violate the first commandment.

The papal position has traditionally prevented those who are not “validly married” and who are having sexual relations from receiving the Eucharist. Pope Francis recently compared his critics to “the doctors of the law who persecuted Jesus,” observing that “these men did everything prescribed by the law.”

According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what God has revealed to be godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what He has revealed to be ungodly and sinful, and the Ten Commandments are certainly an example of that, so we are to obey them because we have not forgotten the grace that we have received. Obedience to the Ten Commandments by faith doesn't prevent progress, but rather it is progress.

 

[ewq1938]