Pope Francis Calls Conservative Catholics “Backward.” Nice guy, huh?

[mourningdove~]

I just feel repulsed by disobedience even if I would love the TLM more in use in every city.

If things that I've said ...
questions I have asked ...
have caused you to feel 'repulsion' ... I am sorry.

But I am not sorry for asking my questions ...
and I do appreciate the answers I've been given ...
because I am genuinely trying to understand what is going on presently in the Church.

I will admit; though I am a revert with a Pre-Vatican II background, I am still very 'Protestant' in my thinking. I am aware of that.
And I do not understand so well things like 'loyalty to the pope', etc., but I am trying to understand them.
I may be asking uncomfortable questions, but it is not to make any persons here feel uncomfortable.
It really is just to help me to understand what is going on.

These days, I am hearing 'Resist'. I am also hearing 'Obey the pope and be loyal to him, no matter what he says or does'.
It is all very confusing ...


I am happy to be back in the Church. But it is also a confusing time to come back.
All please know, I do not mean to offend any of you, with my questions.

Right now, I am listening to the Youtube video "On the Verge of Schism" with Moynihan & Murr.
It is interesting, but I'm so reminded of how many levels of authority there are, in the Catholic Church.
The Protestant church does not have all that, so all the rules, formalities, legalities about Catholicism are foreign to me.
But as a retired career government employee, I do 'get' how some of that works, and I continue to learn ...

 

[zippy2006]

Pope Francis does not fear schism, or so he says.

Looking back, Pope Francis' predecessors were much more keen to unify than Francis is (e.g. Benedict XVI, John Paul II, Paul VI, John XXIII. There's really no comparison. The only time that I can think of where Francis attempts to cultivate unity is in the case of the German Church, and yet even in that case he refuses to address the basic reasons for the disunity in Germany.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If things that I've said ...
questions I have asked ...
have caused you to feel 'repulsion' ... I am sorry.

But I am not sorry for asking my questions ...
and I do appreciate the answers I've been given ...
because I am genuinely trying to understand what is going on presently in the Church.

I will admit; though I am a revert with a Pre-Vatican II background, I am still very 'Protestant' in my thinking. I am aware of that.
And I do not understand so well things like 'loyalty to the pope', etc., but I am trying to understand them.
I may be asking uncomfortable questions, but it is not to make any persons here feel uncomfortable.
It really is just to help me to understand what is going on.

These days, I am hearing 'Resist'. I am also hearing 'Obey the pope and be loyal to him, no matter what he says or does'.
It is all very confusing ...


I am happy to be back in the Church. But it is also a confusing time to come back.
All please know, I do not mean to offend any of you, with my questions.

Right now, I am listening to the Youtube video "On the Verge of Schism" with Moynihan & Murr.
It is interesting, but I'm so reminded of how many levels of authority there are, in the Catholic Church.
The Protestant church does not have all that, so all the rules, formalities, legalities about Catholicism are foreign to me.
But as a retired career government employee, I do 'get' how some of that works, and I continue to learn ...

I'm referring to the things I have seen on Reddit and Quora.

 

[Michie]

I'm referring to the things I have seen on Reddit and Quora.

You should say so then. Otherwise it is looking like you are attacking your brethren. When one posts, one must be clear. Is it your thoughts or conclusions or some posts you’ve read elsewhere? Nobody likes to read a post where it had no clear meaning. That’s the problem we have with the current pope. Everyone is left scratching their heads. Nobody is a mind reader.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You should say so then. Otherwise it is looking like you are attacking your brethren. When one posts, one must be clear. Is it your thoughts or conclusions or some posts you’ve read elsewhere? Nobody likes to read a post where it had no clear meaning. That’s the problem we have with the current pope. Everyone is left scratching their heads. Nobody is a mind reader.

I have noticed that everything OBOB talks about is easily googled.
I just don't want to necessary put them all down, but I have seen some terrible things said in the name of 'conservatism' and I am conservative for the most part.

It's like an angry mob. I quit looking. Not everyone is that bad, but a good number.
AND this is my point, we don't know what the Pope is seeing and hearing.
And I feel the 'spiritual fruits' from what they have said are suspiciously just angry.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I have noticed that everything OBOB talks about is easily googled.
I just don't want to necessary put them all down, but I have seen some terrible things said in the name of 'conservatism' and I am conservative for the most part.

It's like an angry mob. I quit looking. Not everyone is that bad, but a good number.
AND this is my point, we don't know what the Pope is seeing and hearing.
And I feel the 'spiritual fruits' from what they have said are suspiciously just angry.

If conservatism can sometimes look like an angry mob, it's only because it's fighting back against the actual angry mob.

 

[Michie]

I have noticed that everything OBOB talks about is easily googled.
I just don't want to necessary put them all down, but I have seen some terrible things said in the name of 'conservatism' and I am conservative for the most part.

It's like an angry mob. I quit looking. Not everyone is that bad, but a good number.
AND this is my point, we don't know what the Pope is seeing and hearing.
And I feel the 'spiritual fruits' from what they have said are suspiciously just angry.

So what are you doing? Is this humility? I don’t see it. You are basically telling people to shut up. Pay, pray and obey. I’ll obey but nobody will stuff my concerns and questions down my throat. The pope has not spoke infallibly where I should just quietly obey. You can still disagree with the pope in respect for him and the office. I will not play along with this agenda to appease the world while attacking the flock. We suck. We are rigid, etc. Hiding your light under a bushel is not what we are called to do. So you can piously cheerlead as if the pope is infallible in all he says and does but a lot of us know that notion is not true. We are the Body of Christ.. as imperfect as it is but a lot of us know we do not go against the deposit of our faith. It’s not a good direction we are going in and I will not mindlessly defend it for what I think will be my own spiritual benefit to do so. It borders on superstition it borders on cult like behavior. If it makes you feel better, go for it. But it raises alarms in me. So we are just going to have to deal with it and each other without the holier than thou finger wagging, etc. We can continue to raise our concerns against one another and take sides because of this confusing pope that will not answer anything directly. What are those fruits?? DIVISION maybe? I know what I converted to and this ain’t it. The pope is a Jesuit, he is not an idiot. He does not need you, me, or the Vatican clergy trying to clean up everything he says every time he speaks while he tries to appease the world. He seems to know perfectly well what he is doing. Why does HE never clarify? Refuse to answer questions from the faithful? He leaves it hanging and let’s other clean up his seeds of confusion. His mode of communication equals word salad. That’s where I’m at and if anyone does not like it, that’s tough.

 

[Michie]

If conservatism can sometimes look like an angry mob, it's only because it's fighting back against the actual angry mob.

Pretty much. The so-called tolerance bunch. That did not last long.

 

[mourningdove~]

I'm referring to the things I have seen on Reddit and Quora.

This is helpful to know, @WarriorAngel .

I do not post in this forum with the intent of offending you or anyone else here.
And I doubt you are the only reader here who is in agreement with Pope Francis ...
I don't want to offend any of them with my questions, either.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Pretty much. The so-called tolerance bunch. That did not last long.

 

[Michie]

View attachment 336169

We are seeing that now.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

We are seeing that now.

Yep. We tried the "live and let live" method. We see what that got us. Now isn't the time to blindly go along to get along. Good men and women must take a stand.

 

[mourningdove~]

It's like an angry mob. I quit looking. Not everyone is that bad, but a good number.
AND this is my point, we don't know what the Pope is seeing and hearing.
And I feel the 'spiritual fruits' from what they have said are suspiciously just angry.

You may not realize this, but you 'sound' pretty angry yourself, when you post about persons who do not support the pope as you do.

I might suggest something; I think it will bring you some peace:
Forgive those who hurt and anger you with their talk about the pope ... and pray for them.

(Matthew 5:44-45)

 

[mourningdove~]

When one posts, one must be clear.

If we want to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings, hurt feelings, and divisiveness, I agree we really do need to try and 'speak' clearly.

(... I do wish the pope would do it more often! )

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm referring to the things I have seen on Reddit and Quora.

For the record, I don't go there. Never have. I don't even do Facebook.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I have noticed that everything OBOB talks about is easily googled.
I just don't want to necessary put them all down, but I have seen some terrible things said in the name of 'conservatism' and I am conservative for the most part.

It's like an angry mob. I quit looking. Not everyone is that bad, but a good number.
AND this is my point, we don't know what the Pope is seeing and hearing.
And I feel the 'spiritual fruits' from what they have said are suspiciously just angry.

These are very trying times. Satan gets to sift us like sand. And most of us are not fully up to the challenge of the last ten years.

I have to limit my dose of pope Francis for my own sanity. I think we all do. Some pope 500 years ago, back in the day when there were some really bad popes, wasn't in the news every day on a 24/7 news cycle. But that's what we have now, and it's an overload to our wimpy brains which just aren't made for that. That's a physiological problem. Off the wall 24/7 news induces a hormonal survival response, which prepares us for fight or flight response. Or, if we suppress that a depression response. So angry comments come out often enough. The responses are usually not well thought out. Our first response should be to pray about it, but the cortisol and adrenaline get in the way.

You and I agree on most things I think. We both agree with the idea of papal infallibility. Maybe I see it as a much more limited thing. It was easy to think that everything out of the mouth of pope John Paul II was infallible. That was my mistake. Intellectually I knew it wasn't so, but it was easy to feel that way. When pope Francis began to dismantle everything John Paul taught I had to ask what about truth survives from one pope to the next? How could John Paul be infallible and Francis be infallible and the latter undo the work of the former? Infallibility must be a very limited thing.

This thread has been painful. I want to go back into my shell and hide like a good snail threatened by the big bad ocean. But maybe some things needed to be said. Yes, there are extremists hating on pope Francis. Yes, pope Francis is not a nice person, and at best he is confusing, at worst a bad pope and a threat to the faith. And yes, we have to pray and fast for the Church in these trying times. And yes, we need to pray hard for our perseverance, mine and yours and all of us, or we will not make it through the narrow gate.

I am hoping that we have not become enemies. I know things are very trying now in the Church. Plenty of confusion, plenty of dissent being normalized, teachings from before 2013 look like they are being tossed out, a self-referential synod approaches, and all hell appears like it will break out. It scares me. And that boosts my cortisol and adrenaline. Which puts me off balance. Jesus said over and over to be not afraid. I am afraid. This is no longer a serene barque of Peter sailing it's course. It seems headed to a capsize. The winds are strong and strengthening with gusts and chop. I know enough about sailing to have experienced that kind of water in a small boat. Jesus is in the boat, sleeping soundly whilst I panic.

 

[fide]

It is circular. You are right that it will remain circular.

On this I agree. The urge ti schism is strong on all sides. Pope Francis has said he does not fear schism. He should. So should we all. The little SSPX schism (they are not technically in schism at the moment) is a 53 year old split because of bull headed people. One COULD simply blame Marcel Lefebvre, who deserves a chunk of it, but that would be a gross over-simplification. The Reformation is a 506 year split because of bull-headed people. One COULD simply blame Martin Luther, who deserves a chunk of it, but that would be a gross over-simplification. The split between Catholics and the Orthodox is a thousand year old split because of bull headed people. One COULD blame it on Photius (the Great, one of the Pillars of Orthodoxy) but that would be a gross over-simplification. I do blame it on all three of those characters but it isn't that simple. The papacy has to own a big chunk of the responsibilities. Infallibility, which I accept, has not prevented those schisms.

Schisms don't heal easily. They need special and aggressive and attentive wound care. Best to avoid the wound in the first place. Best to avoid the risky behavior that results in getting wounded in the first place. I don't see that pope Francis wants to avoid schism, but he seems to want to promote it. And some on the trad fringe want it just as bad or more. Both are engaged in risky and even foolish behavior.

Pope Francis would label me a backwardist and before that even a neo-pelagian and a whole bunch of other mean things. And I pray for him. He may not be a good pope, but he is my pope for now. When he shoots me I may scream in pain. I can't shoot him back.

chevy, I always read your comments because I discern you are a deep thinker, and feel deeply about matters that deserve depth. That said, I suggest you reconsider your fear of schism - and its nearness today- in the light of the Lord's words:

Mt 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Mt 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
Mt 10:36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household.
Mt 10:37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
Mt 10:38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mt 10:39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

There is a chasm between truth and falsity - Jesus stands on Truth, speaks truth, is truth. Every man is on a journey in time in a temporary cosmos, personally called from falsity to truth. The net at the end of time will have gathered many fish, to be sorted and separated, the good from the bad. Even the Church, His Holy Church, is divided within and among her institutional members, laity and clergy. All will be sorted, separated, the good from the bad.
A final schism that Fulton Sheen saw and described seems very likely to me, initiated by the false prophet of Revelation 13, the beast from the earth who will work alongside the beast from the sea, the ecclesial in concert with the secular, allied for a time to accelerate the separation of men according to their hearts. Maybe we are seeing this very scenario, in our lifetime, in our days, now.
JPII was right: "Be not afraid." God is not sleeping - He is at work.

 

[chevyontheriver]

chevy, I always read your comments because I discern you are a deep thinker, and feel deeply about matters that deserve depth. That said, I suggest you reconsider your fear of schism - and its nearness today- in the light of the Lord's words:

There is a chasm between truth and falsity - Jesus stands on Truth, speaks truth, is truth. Every man is on a journey in time in a temporary cosmos, personally called from falsity to truth. The net at the end of time will have gathered many fish, to be sorted and separated, the good from the bad. Even the Church, His Holy Church, is divided within and among her institutional members, laity and clergy. All will be sorted, separated, the good from the bad.
A final schism that Fulton Sheen saw and described seems very likely to me, initiated by the false prophet of Revelation 13, the beast from the earth who will work alongside the beast from the sea, the ecclesial in concert with the secular, allied for a time to accelerate the separation of men according to their hearts. Maybe we are seeing this very scenario, in our lifetime, in our days, now.
JPII was right: "Be not afraid." God is not sleeping - He is at work.

I think a fear of schism is a good thing. But you are right that there are times where a break with infidelity is necessary. The bias towards avoiding schism is a good one, but it is not absolute. There are some things where bishops need to declare that something is outside the bounds. And although we lay people do not have that authority we may have an obligation to withdraw support in some instances.